: 81 Deville 4.1L Crankshaft Bolt size?



Rooinek
04-06-07, 03:07 PM
Folks,

Does anyone know the size socket needed to loosen the crankshaft bolt on a 1981 Deville 4.1L V6?

Does the bolt loosen anti-clockwise or clockwise?

My #27 socket is too small and my #32 is too large.

This is likely first time removal for this vehicle so any advice with regard to getting the pulley off will be greatly appreciated.

I need to replace the timing chain.

The W/S manual specifies 225ft/LB torque.

Rooinek
04-07-07, 03:33 PM
OK Folks now that I have figured out that the socket size is 1 1/8 I will assume that loosening direction is anti-clockwise since there is no arrow nearby indicating otherwise.
The W/S manual just says to remove the pulley and harmonic balancer.

Now the question is how to secure the crankshaft without having to remove the oilpan and crankshaft case.

Is there a way to secure the crankshaft so that the bolt can be loosened and then retightened and torqued?

I am beginning to understand why the auto shop wanted $800+ to replace the timing chain.........

Brother_B
04-07-07, 03:46 PM
I dont know what a #27 is but if it's a 27/32" then the next size up would be a 7/8". That seems about right for the torque you mentioned. I thought the numbered sizes were really small though, like around 1/8"?

TO remove my timing chain, I would need to remove harmonic balancer, engine front cover, distributor, oil slinger, fuel pump, fuel pump eccentric from camshaft and then finally the camshaft sprocket and crankshaft sprocket. I would need a puller for the harmonic balancer. Don't know about your car, it is probably a lot simpler, hopefully.

[What's up, Jacksonville?! I'm in Neptune Beach]

The Ape Man
04-07-07, 04:47 PM
Counterclockwise will take it apart. A 1/2" air gun would take it off without having to block the crank. Otherwise, take the flywheel cover off and block the flywheel. Dunno if it was an issue on these engines but later V6s would promptly blow up from oil starvation if the top timing gear pieces were not removed from the oil pan during a timing chain replacement. Seems the bits land up in the oil sump.

Rooinek
04-07-07, 09:55 PM
Folks,

Thanks for the input.

(Hey Brother_B, I am over in Mandarin - one day we should meet in the middle so I can see that '69 Deville you have.)

This Deville "belongs" to the oldest teen and was supposed to induce quality time with Dad.
In reality Dad spends quality time with Deville whilst teen goes off in another car with buddies.

#27 Meant a 27mm metric socket, but I realized that the bolt is probably SAE I matched with a 1 1/8 inch socket when I could not find a 28mm which would likely also work fine.

The setup with the 4.1L V6 is much the same as yours.
I had real difficulty removing the fuel pump as the inner bolt is almost out of reach.
I dread having to put that bolt back again.......

Thanks Apeman, I was able to get the bolt off by wedging the power bar against the chassis, reconnecting the battery and turning the starter once or twice.

I was unable to turn the bolt using the brute force I am known to possess.
That also exposed another possible issue as I was able to lift the engine up off the left side mounting whilst trying to turn the bolt anti-clockwise.
I think I need to look at the engine mountings as well.

Now the problem is to re-torque that crankshaft bolt to 225lbs/inch when my wrench only goes up to 150lbs/inch.

Any ideas other than purchasing a new torque wrench from Sears for $109?

The timing cover is now off and tomorrow reassembly begins after a lot of cleaning to remove 26 years of grease and whatever.

I am seriously considering renewal of the waterpump as well since I have it off.

What do y'all think about waterpump replacement?

I don't know if it was ever replaced as the hose extensions look too corroded for it to have been changed in the last 5 years at least.
Car has 150,000 miles on the clock.

Apeman, I have taken note about the timing gear pieces landing in the sump.
I was not intending to remove the sump.
Is this really an issue?
If any bits are in the sump how do they rise upwards and into the engine again?
I would eventually expect to find these stuck to the sump plug, hopefully.
I will be taking extreme care to ensure no bits fall into the darkness.

Thanks again for the input folks.

The Ape Man
04-07-07, 10:53 PM
Do some research on the good old WWW. Google is your friend. I really don't know if it was an issue with the 4.1 V6 but it sure was with the 3800 V6. The plastic timing gear falls apart and the pieces get sucked into the oil pickup screen. I've seen this kill a V6. Good luck with the quality time. My son will be driving an '80 CDV with 368 power starting in May after he gets his license. Nice BIG SLOW car.

Brother_B
04-08-07, 04:09 AM
Folks,
I had real difficulty removing the fuel pump as the inner bolt is almost out of reach.
I dread having to put that bolt back again.......


Inner fuel pump bolt sounds like a job for the erstwhile teenager. Seriously, he needs help out at least a little with the reassembly now that youve got it all tore down, right? Two very kind parents here providing their kids with Lacs for their first car. That even beats a Subaru! (Kidding - Love ya Mom and Dad!)

Is it 225 foot-lbs or inch-lbs? I thought that Autozone/Advance loaned out torque wrenches, but I may be mistaken. I would try to borrow you one from work but I'm out of town. (I will be torquing a bunch of 1.25" bolts to 450 foot-lbs on Tuesday, if that makes you feel any better.) Rooinek, I hope I get a chance to show you the green machine one day. Right now you'd be staring at an immobile mess.

N0DIH
04-10-07, 09:44 PM
You have a crankshaft bolt? My 85 FSM shows a cork, bolt not installed like the 70's 472's and 500's. Press fit only balancer and a cork to keep dirt out.

One CAN be added, but Cadillac didn't.

Rooinek
04-17-07, 10:24 PM
Folks,

The saga continues as a timing chain replacement developed into a major service.

Apeman was absolutely right about the plastic timing gear, complete with missing teeth.
Off came the oil pan, after the exhaust cross pipe which has to be removed because the oil pan will not clear it by about half an inch. (design engineer should have been shot)
I found quite a lot of interesting bits and pieces in the oil pan.

Engine mountings, waterpump, oil intake screen have all been replaced as well as the timing gear, chain and tensioner.
I had an interesting 3 hours wrestling with the right hand engine mount until I established the wrong part was in the right box.
I may have copyright on new foul language.....

No luck yet with a torque wrench although I have decided to purchase either S-K or Precision Tools 250 Ft/Lbs tool via EBAY.
Autozone could not supply one on loan without special order.
I have not read good reviews about Craftsman and my faith in Sears has somewhat diminished in recent years.

How am I going to torque to 224 Lbs/Ft (Crankshaft pulley bolt) without developing a hernia or putting the car on it's side?

BTW this bolt came off when I jammed the power bar against the chassis and cranked the starter motor, a trick I learned with Land Rovers in Africa.

Current problem:

The oil pump has a triangular adapter plate which looks like it needs a gasket.

I cannot find this gasket in any listing.
On removal it looked like someone had been in there before and used copious amounts of liquid gasket to the point it mostly closed off the oil channels.
The oil filter housing to the adapter also needs an O ring or O seal which I cannot see listed either.

Any ideas regarding the oil pump seals will be greatly appreciated, as has been the input so far.

Old Fleetwood
04-17-07, 11:33 PM
Loctite Corp USED TO make a kit whereby you could make your own O-rings of any size. I still have mine in the basement. It was a small yellow kit about 3x9x7 inches with cyanoacrylate glue, various diameter and lengths of solid material to make the O-rings with, and a bottle of compound to paint the glue joint after you had completed your O-ring.
I made a bunch for my neighbor's Volvo and many of his friend's Volvos as well as my own OMC sterndrive for the boat I had at that time.
I don't know if such kits are still around, but it's worth a try to see if they still exist. They would be very handy.

N0DIH
04-17-07, 11:39 PM
I have always done my wrench to 150 ft/lbs and then one good hard yank. That is all you really need. Don't sweat it at 224 (223 isn't gonna blow the engine up...). But it DOES need to be tight. My guess is go to 150 ft/lb (common on the wrenches) and then either use it or a breaker bar and go another 1/16" to 1/8" turn or so.

Brother_B
04-18-07, 01:02 AM
224 ft-lbs is not too bad! I don't think you will have a problem. I am back in town and can still try to borrow you a 250 ft-lb wrench if you want to save some money. Unless you wanted to add a torque wrench to your arsenal anyway. And why is it commonly warned to never use a piece of pipe to extend a torque wrench handle anyway? It seems like if you were careful, it would be fine to do this.

If you end up having to spec your own o-ring, the Parker Handbook is very good: http://www.parker.com/o-ring/Literature/00-5700.pdf . If there is a groove that it goes in, you can try to measure the depth/diameter and then pick one that fits based on the info there. And select a material that is compatible with engine oil. Partsamerica.com lists a bunch of oil pump kits for your car, none of those were the right gasket? If not, I was thinking you might drop in to a Advance Auto Parts and ask them to bring up an oil pump on their computer screen. Maybe a new oil pump comes with the gasket, and you could at least see a good photo. Or maybe they can actually find the gasket. They tend to have better photos on their in-store computers than are available at the website (partsamerica.com). That technique has helped me a few times.

Old Fleetwood: We make o-rings at work, though not for the level of precision needed here. Some of us have been surprised that cyanoacrylate adhesives are specified. That is basically super glue, and it just seems too brittle for an o-ring application. We use a Loctite product, though, so your comment makes me feel a little better about using them. We cut the o-ring cord stock at an angle to get get more surface area for the bond, and so that the compressive forces are acting on the bond-line in a more favorable way. We don't use the paint you mentioned, that sounds like it could be helpful. I think sometimes we sand the joints a little bit if the glue has squeezed out.

Rooinek
04-18-07, 09:30 PM
Folks,

Wow!
Nodih, Old Fleet and Bro' B, thanks for the great input at such short notice.
I carefully read it all and visited the various websites etc.

I think I might have the oil pump gasket problem licked as follows:

The adapter to oil pump gasket can be taken from an old (or new) oil filter.
An oil filter fits directly onto the oil pump and the adapter purpose is just to extend the original oil pump past the suspension cross member.
(Watch me also try and do away with the adapter altogether.....)
The plate on the front of the adapter has its original gasket which although tired looking is still good with a coat of liquid gasket, like I found when I pulled it all apart.
I will use petroleum jelly to test and gauge how much liquid gasket is needed so that I don't mostly block the inside channels as was the case when I opened it up.
I will first follow the advice of Brother B and visit my good friends at Advance up the road.
I know from past experience they have better views of their stock than one sees via the website.

Brother B, I really appreciate the torque wrench offer but I intend to purchase one in any case.
There is another project (Alfa 164L) awaiting in the driveway for the second Teen.

As y'all suggested I had also contemplated using my trusty old spike torque wrench to it's 150LB max and then just going as tight as I could thereafter.
Sometimes one just has to calculate carefully and get on with things.....

BTW I use the trusty spike wrench to verify the fancy clickers.

Old Fleetwood
04-19-07, 12:12 AM
Brother B -
That kit came with a small template that let you cut STRAIGHT through the cord rather than on the diagonal which seems to be the more reasonable way to do it.
That template was about the size of a child's 6" ruler from a school pencil box and had a place for a single edge razor to slice the cord when you inserted the cord into a slot.
One of these days I'll work up the nerve to go through the junk down there and find it and take a photo of that little kit so you can see what I'm talking about.