: Torque Converter Clutch (P 0741 TCC stuck off)



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PhillyXcess
03-30-07, 10:38 PM
The Tech at the Cadillac Dealer tells me the reason my "Service Engine Light" is on is due to the Torque Converter Clutch. They explained my car is not going into overdrive and my gas mileage will suffer. Aside from that they didn't give me much of an explanation on why I need make a repair.

Can anyone please shed some light on what the heck the Torque Converter Clutch is and how urgent the need to repair? The Service Dept wants almost $3,000 to make the repair.

I hadn't noticed the car driving differently, but I took the car in because my Engine Light had come on.

It's a 2002 Deville DTS - 82K milies - according to the work order "Has a PO741 TCC Stuck Off.

Any insights are apppreciated.

fubar569
03-30-07, 11:08 PM
your service department is trying to buttream you without lube!

that code..tcc stuck off...doesnt mean your car isnt going into overdrive...it just means that the converter isnt locking up. your mileage will suffer, but running without the converter locked will cause excessive heat and eventually will kill the transmission...that would be what id be most worried about...

there could be a number of reasons for this...could be as simple as the tcc solenoid, or as complex as the converter itself being fubared...which would mean they'd have to drop the cradle and seperate motor and trans to replace the converter...either way, 3,000 is WAY too much...

i'd find another dealer and get a second opinion on the repair estimate...it SURELY needs further diagnosis at a minimum

Ranger
03-31-07, 05:02 PM
Your mileage will suffer by about 1 MPG. Slippage is very minor. All transmissions used to slip like this before TCC's. I do not think your trans will overheat or get damaged by running it as is.

Edahall
03-31-07, 06:31 PM
that code..tcc stuck off...doesnt mean your car isnt going into overdrive...it just means that the converter isnt locking up. your mileage will suffer, but running without the converter locked will cause excessive heat and eventually will kill the transmission...that would be what id be most worried about...



It's been 40k miles since mine starting having this problem and the transmission is still holding up fine. I also live in S. California where it is subjected to some warm temperatures.

99Classillac
04-01-07, 03:21 PM
I used to have this problem when i had 20 inch rims on my deville. I cleared the codes when I took the rims off. No problems now. I even did the test where you get on the highway and tap the brake pedal slightly to disengage the clutch and it disengages which means it was engaged. I think the heavy weight of the rims caused the TCC to slip and the code came up.

aamusls06
04-01-07, 05:00 PM
your service department is trying to buttream you without lube!

that code..tcc stuck off...doesnt mean your car isnt going into overdrive...it just means that the converter isnt locking up. your mileage will suffer, but running without the converter locked will cause excessive heat and eventually will kill the transmission...that would be what id be most worried about...

there could be a number of reasons for this...could be as simple as the tcc solenoid, or as complex as the converter itself being fubared...which would mean they'd have to drop the cradle and seperate motor and trans to replace the converter...either way, 3,000 is WAY too much...

i'd find another dealer and get a second opinion on the repair estimate...it SURELY needs further diagnosis at a minimum

I'm no authority on this, but I burned mines up with that problem. Although I stayed on the interstate and made a few trips through the Appalachians toward Atlanta visiting the ole lady. I also made frequent trips from my work unit with the Forest Service to home and back to college. I put at least 10,000 miles or more on it before it burned up. I remember the exact date of October 21st 2006(anniversary) when it first kicked that solenoid code out and it burned up on the 19th of Jan 07 after a five state trip in one day. I honestly believe it was slipping before the code was kicked out because I started noticing slight changes in my tach along the interstate in the summer time. It will go the distance though as I seen with my own eyes.

I agree with the guy that said heat could cause it to kill the tranny, but that's because of the experiences I had with my car. I didn't believe it could happen because of just a slight slippage, but when I saw my clutch packs and other parts that changed my tune. I got a friend of the family to rebuild mines and it was no where near $3000. I was burning a whole tank of gas almost on a 230 mile interstate trip. Now I can go there on a little bit more than a quarter tank.

I believe I could've dodged that problem if I had've replace that bad torque convertor, but being cheap I suffered. Like fubar said, solenoid or torque convertor. That's just to be safe. That should be pretty reasonable. I don't even think a complete rebuild would cost nowhere near 3000 bucks.

jadcock
04-02-07, 11:40 AM
TCCs are there for a reason, and the cooling systems and transmission lubrication systems are designed as such. We all know these cars' systems are so integrated, we really shouldn't question THAT...

Having no TCC operation will cause the transmission to run hotter. There's no doubt about it. The difference will be sustained slippage on long trips. In the city, the TCC usually isn't engaged anyway, depending on your speed. But it will have an effect on transmission durability and fluid life.

Windrider
04-02-07, 01:40 PM
This code is an old friend. I have the same code on my 98 SLS. Started showing up about 2 years ago at about 125,000 miles. Would only happen starting in D and running up to the shift point (at 41 mph I think?) when the SES light would light.

The information on this forum was very helpful. Basically the forum advice was to suspect the sensor before the TCC. I had the transmission fluid changed and added a bottle of Lucas transmission additive. Code came back almost right away. Also read that the code does not appear if you drive in 3rd. So now I drive in 3 around town and when I am on the interstate I shift to D and it always go to overdrive (RPMs drop). When I exit I usually downshift to 3. Sometimes the SES is on, sometimes not based on drive cycles and how good I am about remembering to downshift to 3 when slowing down.

The car has 155,000 miles now, gets 24 mpg and seems to shift as expected.

I would say if it shits to overdrive when you shift from 3 to D dont worry about it.

Ranger
04-02-07, 09:49 PM
Don't confuse overdrive with TCC lock up. Two totally different things.

Windrider
04-03-07, 01:43 PM
Ranger I take your point. The reason I thought they were related is that I don't get the code if I stay in 3rd and recently there was a tread that discussed getting your car ready for state inspection with this code. The fix was to stay in 3rd and drive a certain number of cycles so there was no remaining information.

Your point is that the transmission is shifting above lock up speed but not necessarily with torque converter lock up.

Do I have it right??

Thanks

Windrider

99Classillac
04-03-07, 08:13 PM
Do the lock up test. Go above 41 mph. I do about 60mph. Then while holding a steady speed (NO cruise control), tap the brake pedal just enough to turn on the brake light or hear that little click. If you see your RPM's go up, then your converter is locking up. If the RPM's stay the same, then is isn't. The converter clutch disengages when you hit the brakes.

Ranger
04-04-07, 12:59 AM
Windrider,
I believe that is correct. Don't quote me but I think 3rd gear bypasses the TCC lock up. TCC locks up only in OD.

Also, keep in mind per 99clasics post, that you will only see about a 200 RPM jump in RPM. Gotta watch the tach closely.

jadcock
04-04-07, 11:11 AM
3rd gear does not bypass lockup. Both my '01 STS and '97 SLS lockup in 3rd gear.

Ranger
04-04-07, 05:20 PM
:hmm: Then what is the purpose of clearing the DTC and driving in 3rd for several days to pass an emissions test when you get that DTC?

Windrider
04-05-07, 10:33 AM
OK I did the lock up test last night on the way home from work. When I am in 3rd I did not observe any change in rpms but in D I did see the tack move up. I did the test several time and the results were the same. Also when I was above 41 mph, in D and did the test over and over I never got the SES light but as soon as I dropped below 41 mph and then cross it again got the SES light and when I checked codes it was P0741 current.

I think this confirms Rangers comment about lock up in D only and tells me that I have a sensor problem and not a TCC problem. I am going to continue to drive around in 3 and use D for the highway and ignore (and clear) the SES/P0741 code.

Thanks

Windrider

jadcock
04-05-07, 01:00 PM
:hmm: Then what is the purpose of clearing the DTC and driving in 3rd for several days to pass an emissions test when you get that DTC?

:confused: Beats me. Both of my cars will lock the TCC with the PRNDL selector in 3 vs. D, so I don't understand that scheme either. I confirmed this last night on the ride home from work in the '01, and I know it does it on the '97 as well. Just from the ride yesterday, in the '01, the TCC will lock with the selector in 3 at about 37 mph, which is also about the speed it'll upshift into 4th gear, if the selector is in D.

Below that speed (again, with the selector in 3), it seems to stay unlocked, but it WILL lock above that speed, and stay locked. If I slip the transmission selector into D, the transmission will shift to 4th gear, and the TCC will lock back up if vehicle speed is over about 45 mph.

Windrider, if you put your transmission selector in 3 and run, say, 50 mph, you don't get TCC lockup? :confused:

This may be a secondary programming scheme in the transmission...sort of a "failsafe" if you will. If there's a problem with the TCC or with a sensor, perhaps the TCC lock schedules are changed to preclude lockup in 3rd gear? I don't know.

jadcock
04-05-07, 04:00 PM
I verified this on the way home from work (again, in the '01 STS). With the gear selector in 3, the TCC will lock at speeds above 38 mph. It will stay locked at speeds higher than 38 mph. It will also stay locked as speeds fall below 38 mph, but will unlock itself, without brake application, when the digital speed readout falls to 35 mph.

Your speeds may vary, STS-to-SLS, because of final drive ratio differences, but I believe the TCC lock schedules should be similar. They are on my '97 SLS (which, admittedly, is an older generation). I don't remember the exact mph figures I quoted above, for the '97, but I do know that the TCC will lock with the gear selector in 3.

Windrider
04-05-07, 04:15 PM
Windrider, if you put your transmission selector in 3 and run, say, 50 mph, you don't get TCC lockup? :confused:



Jacock:

Thats right I ran the test at 60mph and did it several times - no lock up.

I will do it again tonight and confirm.

thanks

Windrider

99Classillac
04-05-07, 05:20 PM
It's not supposed to lock up in 3rd. It is supposed to lock in D only, because thats overdrive. It locks up and it help with gas consumption. Windrider, if your tach moves up about 200 rpm or so, then you sensor is bad, not the clutch. If you have to take to emissions, drive the car in 3rd only for 2 weeks. Don't put it into D. Driving in 3rd will trick the sensor into no throwing a code because the TCC can't lock in 3rd.

jadcock
04-05-07, 07:59 PM
It IS supposed to lock in 3rd.

From my '97 service manual, this is found on page 7-46:

The Torque Converter Clutch (TCC/VCC) should apply in Third or Fourth gear. Note when the TCC/VCC applies. If you do not notice the apply by an RPM drop, refer to Torque Converter Clutch Evaluation and Diagnosis.

I will concede that that information is from the '97 manual, but I believe it to be current through today...there's no reason GM would change that, and my '01 acts just like my '97.

99Classillac
04-05-07, 10:46 PM
intresting.... I think we just confused windrider to death.

jadcock
04-06-07, 07:01 AM
Yeah, and me too. It seems that most folks' cars involved with this problem have no TCC lock in 3rd gear. I'm wondering why...if that's related to the code or not (it probably is I would say). Does your car's TCC lock in manual 3, and do you have the P0741 code?

The service manual listed some things the PCM does when that code is set, and disabling the TCC in 3rd gear was not one of them. Locking out OD was, but only when the trans is in an overheat mode. So I remain curious why putting the gear selector in manual 3 works for folks with this code, and why the code doesn't set. The service manual was clear that one of the conditions for the code setting was transmission being in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear, which makes it seem like the TCC functionality is even available in 2nd (but the service manual doesn't confirm that anywhere else in the text). I don't remember there being a vehicle speed range for this code to set...but there were a number of other factors, like throttle position, etc. I can post the whole section when I get home tonight after work.

Does anyone here have a service manual from the 2000-2004 timeframe, who can verify whether this information in my '97 manual is current to the more recent era of cars?

deville555
04-10-07, 10:26 PM
TCCs are there for a reason, and the cooling systems and transmission lubrication systems are designed as such. We all know these cars' systems are so integrated, we really shouldn't question THAT...

Having no TCC operation will cause the transmission to run hotter. There's no doubt about it. The difference will be sustained slippage on long trips. In the city, the TCC usually isn't engaged anyway, depending on your speed. But it will have an effect on transmission durability and fluid life.

Action Taken By PCM when P0741 is set is it Inhibits 4th gear if the transaxle is in hot mode.

Madmikeee
01-09-08, 08:57 AM
My 2000 deville is now throwing this code (This sucks) Can someone give me a ballpark figure/most likely scenario on the repair for this so I can make sure to not get totally azz raped.

Thanks.

tateos
01-09-08, 06:38 PM
What "sensor" causes the "sensor problem" you guys are referring to? I thought I read in the FSM that the code is set when the PCM detects more than a tiny amount of slippage based on engine RPM vs. input shaft RPM

Ranger
01-09-08, 09:41 PM
I think it is the TCC solenoid that fails and causes this problem.

tateos
01-09-08, 10:33 PM
http://www.vehicletest.state.ma.us/p0741tsb.pdf

Madmikeee
01-10-08, 08:46 AM
http://www.vehicletest.state.ma.us/p0741tsb.pdf

yes it does a little thanks.

My thing is trying to determine the cost of the repair, which of course is a VERY loaded question to be asking. It could be a simple relatively inexpensive fix if it's a solenoid or alot more if it is the converter itself

Ranger
01-10-08, 11:59 AM
It won't be a cheap fix either way. The TCC solenoid is in the transmission side cover. To gain access, the trans (drivetrain) has to be removed or at least the cradle lowered a little to get the side cover off.

tateos
01-10-08, 06:28 PM
Ranger is right - a lot of $ - either live with it or consider rebuilding the trans while it is out. I lived with it for a year or so and when the HG went on my first engine, I had a used engine and trans installed. If the TCC goes on this trans, i will live with it again until the trans needs to come out again - if ever

jjack79
03-26-08, 08:28 AM
I have a 98 deville d'elegance and i have the TCC code stuck open what is the fix for this? Also my rear end is starting to sag is the and the elc fuse keeps popping how can i fix this?

limoguy
03-26-08, 11:10 AM
I have a 98 deville d'elegance and i have the TCC code stuck open what is the fix for this? Also my rear end is starting to sag is the and the elc fuse keeps popping how can i fix this?



I have the same car with the p0741 code (stuck off)...Ive had it for awhile. Isnt the rear-end springs and shocks?

Logandiagnostic
03-26-08, 02:56 PM
I had to fix mine to pass state emission test.

TCC solenoid is around $30-40.

I lowered my cradle using 14mm rods. Cradle has to come down about 10 inches.

I attached a picture. Yellow arrow points to the TCC solenoid.


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Timo1124
03-29-08, 12:23 AM
My service engine light came on a few weeks ago my on '02 STS with 86k, and there were four codes it was spitting out, including this "stuck off" code being mentioned...can't remember exactly what the other ones were, I have it written down on somewhere... Anyways, took it to the tranny shop, and they recommended I get it repaired immediately, since I had already put about 500 miles on since the light came on.

They ended up replacing the TCC solenoid, EPC solenoid, and input speed sensor, for about $1200. The guy gave me about 3.5 hours of labor off the price, as the original estimate called for close to 13 hours of labor but they got it done in under 10. I probably shoulda shopped around a little more, but this little local shop has always been good to me...anyone else have something similar to this done or could give me an idea if this was a decent price?

Tim

zrt600guy
05-17-08, 05:03 PM
I think my TCC solenoid is not disengaging at low speed. Has anyone experienced this?

Submariner409
05-17-08, 05:28 PM
Isn't this resurrected thread also running up in Seville/Deville ???

InaJAM
05-23-08, 05:04 PM
I had to fix mine to pass state emission test.

TCC solenoid is around $30-40.

I lowered my cradle using 14mm rods. Cradle has to come down about 10 inches.

I attached a picture. Yellow arrow points to the TCC solenoid.


Logan Diagnostic LLC
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Can you tell me what is involved to lower the cradle? Can I do this in the driveway?

Submariner409
05-24-08, 10:54 PM
You need to disconnect the entire front suspension and drivetrain and literally lift the body off the subframe. It's not a driveway job by a long shot.

dkozloski
05-24-08, 11:23 PM
You need to disconnect the entire front suspension and drivetrain and literally lift the body off the subframe. It's not a driveway job by a long shot.
There is a thread around here somewhere about some guy doing it under his apple tree.

Logandiagnostic
05-26-08, 10:00 PM
I fixed mine in the driveway / garage. Mid 60's winter day.

About 12 hours start to burping fluids/done.

I used 14 mm rods to lower the cradle. It has to come down about 10 inches to gain access to the side cover.
Simply disconnect the 2 large strut bolts. No need to remove axles.

It can be done.

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RobertinMn
05-27-08, 05:08 PM
Logan--

I have this problem in my 1999. It has come up before, but always stays off for a long time after resetting. So, I think it must be the solenoid. If I do what you did, where do I position the bolts to support it? It is not clear from your photo. Likewise, if I could talk my mechanic into dropping it down while it is up on a lift, how would he support it?

TIA-

Bob

Logandiagnostic
05-27-08, 05:30 PM
Only the 2000 and latter use 14 mm. Earlier cars used a different size.

Anyway, the cradle bolts are replace one at a time with the rods. The rods have nuts and washers.

Then the cradle is lowered a inch per side, back and forth. Pretty soon the cradle with engine and trans are 10 inches lower, hanging by the rods.

In this picture, cradle is down, hanging on the rods. Now there is access to the side cover and solenoid.

Logan Diagnostic LLC
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RobertinMn
05-27-08, 06:49 PM
Hey--

Thanks for replying so fast. I got you, so pull one side, replace with the longer bolt--going up tight as before, then go to the other side and repeat.

Then just take it down slowly till you have access.

May I ask, what took 12 hours? seems fairly straight forward.

Ranger
05-27-08, 07:01 PM
Hey Logan. For future reference (just in case) did you have to disconnect anything?

Logandiagnostic
05-27-08, 07:22 PM
Put the rods in one at a time. Once the 6 rods are in, start backing off the nuts. The cradle with engine and all will start to come down. Do about a inch each side at a time.

When the repair is done. Simply snug the nuts back up. Up goes the cradle, engine and all.

As for disconnects.

You have to dump the coolant. Disconnect coolant hoses from engine.

You have to recover the freon.

Couple of brake line secure mounts have to been removed. You do not have to open brake system.

Intermediate shaft at steering rack.

MAF removed, PCM tossed on top of the engine.

Unbolt ABS unit from cradle.

Hang the calipers on the upper struts. The 2 bolts for the nuckle/strut very easy to deal with.

Service manual has you drill out rivits for the cat heat shield. This is so the exhaust can drop without O2 sensor hitting shield. Faster to cut a slot in shield, bend out of the way, then bend back when done.

As for 12 hours....start to fluid finish. Also I was taking pictures as I went. Would be much faster 2nd time.

Some little things like fuel lines etc.

I attached a picture of the engine/trans/cradle being pretty close to full drop point.

Sure beats paying the dealer a $1000.


Logan Diagnostic LLC
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Ranger
05-27-08, 07:34 PM
I hope I never have to do this.

RobertinMn
05-27-08, 08:34 PM
Thanks again Logan--

Very nice work.

Logandiagnostic
05-27-08, 10:10 PM
Ranger- It looks messy. But not really that hard to do. It was a relaxed 12 hour job.

The rods allow you to keep everything under control. Fairly safe using the rod method. It works, but I wouldn't sleep under it..

In my case, I cannot pass TN emisions with a check engine light. Either I had to fix it, or Cadillac. Yeah it was 12 hours of work. But I was able to 'pay myself' $1000 for the job. Plus++, I know the job was done right. No surprises..

I know some other owners who have since used the 'rod' method with good results. Really no other way to do it..



Logan Diagnostic LLC
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tateos
05-28-08, 08:49 PM
Logan - I dropped the cradle to do my head gasket job - I put a floor jack on the front of the cradle, and another one on the back, and gradually lowered (and raised) the cradle that way. How come you chose to use threaded rods? Maybe I am missing something, but it seems like a lot of extra work, no?

Richard Moore

Ranger
05-28-08, 09:02 PM
Richard, he was only lowering the cradle 12" or so. Not completely dropping the engine.

DIS DTS
06-01-08, 03:40 PM
I had the same problem in my 03 DTS. It started around 110k. I was told to just drive it. It lasted another 20k. Then I lost 1st gear. I took it to a trans shop and was told it could cost anywhere from $1,500.00 to $2,500. They ended up wanting $3,100.00 and I got them to take $2,800.00. The trans was pretty shot. They replaced quite a bit. I think if I would of dealt with it sooner, I wouldn't have burned up the trans so much and it would have been much less to fix. Also I think I didn't make a good choice of shops. One important thing to remember is once they pull the trans it's very pricey to put back. So be prepared for the worse.

gdmarques
06-10-08, 07:51 AM
I bought my 98 Deville with this problem and 111,000 miles. It now has just under 149,000 miles and the transmission is showing no signs of trouble. I agree the mileage suffers a little bit, but I drive the car hard and have not blown up the tranny yet. Head gaskets are a different story.....

Tommy Deville
06-11-08, 12:29 AM
I tested mine the other day on the highway foot on gas, than tap the break, the tach bumped up about 250 RPM's, hard to belive that an extra 250 RPM's could make such a HUGE diffrence.

prcouture
06-11-08, 01:26 PM
I've got a 2000 Deville DHS. Bought it 4 years ago with 70K+. Code came up pretty soon after purchase. Had a tranny place tell me to watch for it to seem to get worse (RPMs higher, etc.). Have had same code off and on for 4 years, now at 125K. Unfortunately, now it won't pass inspection due to code. Anyone else ever try the 3rd gear routine to get it to pass inspection? I was quoted $1500-1600 for a repair. Little steep. Mileage is still solid on the highway. Curious anyone's thoughts to get around this code for inspection.
Thanks,
Pete

Ranger
06-11-08, 08:07 PM
The 3rd gear trick will work to pass inspection. Others have done it before.

kvrsoccer22
09-03-08, 03:14 PM
Is there just a way to disconnect the TCC selenoid? Ive done it in a Chevy Cavalier, but i dont know if this trans works the same way. So i guess im asking is there a connection going into the trans somewhere that i can just disconnect, i wouldnt have over drive, but it may stop the code from popping up.

Logandiagnostic
09-03-08, 03:58 PM
No, not really.

Older pre OBDII GM computer systems really didnt look at the coverter lock up.

Older GM FWD trans would often have a stuck on TCC solenoid. This would slam stall the car coming to a stop light. The cheap fix was to unplug the TCC. No TCC but no stall.

On the OBDII systems, the computer IS looking for the TCC. So unplugging it would look like a 'open' to the PCM.



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kvrsoccer22
09-03-08, 05:06 PM
So what would happen if the OBDII saw the tcc as open? Would it still pop a code? Or even all the codes associated with the tcc?

RobertinMn
09-03-08, 08:03 PM
Here's an update on my last post.

I took it in to my neighborhood guy. I wanted them to check the tranny fluid level and run the diagnostics on it. They did both, and cleared the code.

1) the code plus the bulletins they looked up on it recommend rebuilding the TCC, not the whole tranny and not replacing it.

2) it has been several months now with very hot weather here. Several extended trips at high speeds (one hour or more at 70+ miles per hour) as well as every day driving on the freeway at speeds of 60 or so for twenty minutes or more. Lots of driving around town.

Thus far, after 2,000 miles, no error codes. Nothing, nada. I follow the manuals advice and let it warm up a bit before driving. Not the whole two minutes in park, one minute in drive while holding the brake, but about 30 to 45 seconds of each.

I would recommend checking the oil level if it has been a while since the last fluid/filter change, clear the code and see what happens. I bumped into an older fellow that I know who owns a rebuild shop, he told me infatically that low fluid can trigger the code, since low fluid will cause the TCC to slip.

Ranger
09-03-08, 08:59 PM
So what would happen if the OBDII saw the tcc as open? Would it still pop a code? Or even all the codes associated with the tcc?

Yes.

blue_eldo
09-09-08, 10:07 PM
In a weak moment, perhaps more like temporary insanity last wednesday I took my 02 Deville to a Cadillac dealer to address the dreaded p0741 and a p1860 code. I dropped the deville off Wednesday afternoon for a Thursday appointment. I was quoted $1,100 to replace the TCC solenoid. Thursday afternoon I get a call from the service writter informing me that the torque converter needed to be replaced and the valve body dropped to inspect a plate and the sprocket! The estimate now was bumped up to $2,700. In even a weaker moment I agree as long at I recieve a 15% discount on the parts that the Parts Manager agreed to on all the parts I buy. I called Friday afternoon and was told that the transmission was not out yet.
I stopped by Monday afternoon and was told that the tranny tech called in sick. I called today and was told that the sprocket was bad and the torque converter was ordered and would take 5 days to ship! I was very suprised by this announcement. The Service writter then offered earlier shipment if I was willing to pay a premium.
I feel this is B.S. and wonder if the Tranny Tech quite in the middle of the job and they are buying time with this excuse.
Right now I am regretting my decision getting involved with this dealership. I was not sucessful in finding a transmission shop that I was comfortable with. I was tempted to fix it myself, but do not have the time these days.

Does anyone have any comments? does a 5 day delivery for a Torque converter make sense?

Logandiagnostic
09-09-08, 10:29 PM
The Cadillac dealer sounds like he is on the hunt for more $$.

The odds of having a bad TTC solenoid, bad TC, bad sprocket are out there a bit.

I have had a 1/2 dozen GM vehicles that I drove well over 200K miles. None ever lost a torque coverter.

I even felt my solenoid fail. I was driving 70 mph, felt a bump in the trans, 30 seconds latter the SES lamp was on. PO1860. Latter po741 came on as a result of 1860.

I was also able to verify the ohms reading of the TCC solenoid at the transmission harness connector BEFORE going into the trans.

This should have been the dealers first step.



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blue_eldo
09-10-08, 11:21 AM
Thanks Logan for your reply. I was so close to replacing the TCC solenoid myself following your excellent guide lines. I also suggested to the Service Writer that I wanted them to replace just the solenoid and that I would roll the dice on that taking care of both codes. She said it would only take care of one of the codes. I asked which one. she could not answer me! I was then afraid that they would charge me for changing the solenoid and not do it, thus proving me wrong.
I knew better than to fall for the dealer B.S. This is what happens when you have more money than Brains!

Logandiagnostic
09-10-08, 11:41 AM
It's a fact. A bad TCC solenoid will cause po1860. A false code po0741 results because of po1860.

Po1860 causes a false Po741.

Fix po1860, po0741 goes away.

If you have po741 by itself, something else is up. Po1860 and po741 together? Fix the TCC solenoid.

First check should have been to measure the ohms value of the TCC solenoid at the transmission connector. My TCC solenoid was 'open.'

Maybe you should print this posting out and present it to the dealer.



Logan Diagnostic LLC
www.ledfix.com
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www.logandieselusa.com

Logandiagnostic
09-10-08, 12:04 PM
Here is the GM diagnostic tree for a 2002 Deville with po741.

Note you must not have po1860 code. Another way to say it, If po1860 is there, you fix that first.

If any of these other codes are there. You have to fix those first before chasing po741.


"The PCM controls the torque converter clutch (TCC) solenoid valve pulse width modulation (PWM). The solenoid controls the hydraulic fluid for TCC apply and release. When the TCC is applied, the engine is coupled directly to the transmission through the TCC. The TCC slip speed should be near 0.

If the PCM detects high torque converter slip when the TCC is commanded ON, then DTC P0741 sets. DTC P0741 is a type B DTC.

Conditions for Running the DTC
• No TP DTCs P0121, P0122 or P0123.

• No VSS DTCs P0502 or P0503.

• No AT ISS DTCs P0716 or P0717.

• No TCC stuck ON DTC P0742.

• No IMS DTCs P1820, P1822, P1823 or P1825.

• No TCC PWM solenoid valve DTC P1860.

• The engine run time is greater than 5 seconds.

• The time since the gear select lever change is greater than 6 seconds.

• The IMS indicates D2, D3 or D4.

• The transmission gear ratio indicates 2nd, 3rd or 4th gear.

• The transmission fluid temperature is 20-133C (68-271F).

• The TP angle is 10-50 percent.

• The engine torque is 43-215 Nm (32-159 lb ft).

• The TCC solenoid valve is commanded ON.

Conditions for Setting the DTC
TCC slip speed exceeds its limit for a given torque for 5 seconds.

Refer to Torque Converter Clutch Slip Speed .

Action Taken When the DTC Sets
• The PCM illuminates the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) during the second consecutive trip in which the Conditions for Setting the DTC are met.

• The PCM inhibits 4th gear if the transmission is in hot mode.

• The PCM records the operating conditions when the Conditions for Setting the DTC are met. The PCM stores this information as Freeze Frame and Failure Records.

• The PCM stores DTC P0741 in PCM history during the second consecutive trip in which the Conditions for Setting the DTC are met.

Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC
• The PCM turns OFF the MIL during the third consecutive trip in which the diagnostic test runs and passes.

• A scan tool can clear the MIL/DTC.

• The PCM clears the DTC from PCM history if the vehicle completes 40 warm-up cycles without an emission-related diagnostic fault occurring.

• The PCM cancels the DTC default actions when the ignition switch is OFF long enough in order to power down the PCM.

Diagnostic Aids
• Inspect the transmission fluid level.

• The transmission may be in hot mode. Inspect the transmission fluid lines to the radiator. The lines may be pinched, plugged or twisted.

Test Description
The numbers below refer to the step numbers on the diagnostic table.

This step inspects the transmission fluid to ensure that it is at the proper level.

This step verifies that the TCC engages when commanded ON by the scan tool.

DTC P0741 Step
Action
Value(s)
Yes
No

1
Did you perform the Powertrain Diagnostic System Check?
--
Go to Step 2
Go to Diagnostic System Check - Engine Controls in Engine Controls

2
Did you perform the Transmission Fluid Checking Procedure?
--
Go to Step 3
Go to Transmission Fluid Check

3
Install a scan tool.
Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.
Important: Before clearing the DTC, use the scan tool in order to record the Freeze Frame and Failure Records. Using the Clear Info function erases the Freeze Frame and Failure Records from the PCM.

Record the DTC Freeze Frame and Failure Records.
Clear the DTC.
Drive the vehicle at 72 km/h (45 mph).
Using the scan tool, command the TCC PWM solenoid valve ON.
Operate the vehicle under the following conditions:
• The transmission fluid temperature (TFT) is 20-133C (68-271F).

• The engine torque is 43-215 Nm (32-159 lb ft).

• Drive the vehicle in D4 with a throttle position (TP) angle of 10-50 %.

• Ensure that the TCC applies for more than 5 seconds.

Monitor the TCC slip speed.
During TCC application, is the slip speed within the specified parameters?
-20 to +100 RPM
Go to Diagnostic Aids
Go to Step 4

4
During TCC apply, if NO change in TCC slip speed, inspect for the following conditions:
• The TCC control valve is stuck OFF due to sediment or binding.

• The TCC regulator valve is stuck OFF due to sediment or binding.

• The TCC feed valve is stuck OFF due to sediment or binding.

• The TCC enable valve is stuck OFF due to sediment or binding.

During TCC apply, if SOME change in TCC slip speed, inspect for the following conditions:
• The TCC PWM oil pressure screen is clogged.

• The TCC PWM solenoid valve O-ring is leaking or cut.

• The turbine shaft seal, case cover to turbine shaft seal, case cover to drive sprocket seal and drive sprocket support are worn.

Repair any of the above items as necessary.
If no problems found in previous conditions, replace the T/C viscous clutch.
Refer to Transmission Overhaul in the 4T80-E section of the Transmission Unit Repair Manual.

Did you complete the repair?
--
Go to Step 5
--

5
Perform the following procedure in order to verify the repair:

Select DTC.
Select Clear Info.
Operate the vehicle under the following conditions:
• The TFT is 20-133C (68-271F).

• The engine torque is 43-215 Nm (32-159 lb ft).

• Drive the vehicle in D4 with a TP angle of 10-50%.

• Ensure that the TCC applies and the slip speed is -20 to +100 RPM for 4 seconds.

Select Specific DTC.
Enter DTC P0741.
Has the test run and passed?
--
System OK
Go to Step 1"






I would suggest the dealer is dishing out complete BS. A new TCC solenoid will fix both codes.

Logan Diagnostic LLC
www.ledfix.com
www.airbagcrash.com
www.logandieselusa.com

DevilleDeeman
09-21-08, 01:44 PM
I've had this TCC code problem for a while (2003 Deville with 127,000 miles), the code showed up 50,000 miles ago. I've had no tranny problems. MPG is down a little (2 MPG), RPM is 2025 at 65 mph car runs great.
Change and flush your tranny fluid every 50,000 miles on these cars and problems won't appear.
Resert the code, it takes along time for it to return.

99DevilleOn20s
12-24-08, 03:53 AM
I have just bought a 97 Deville with 132k on i and this code just came up. On the highway it seems fine but when I come to a complete stop it feels like the tranny hasnt dowshifted into first. If im easy on it it takes off but sort of sluggish. I havent take my rims off yet and im thinking this may help due to the weight of the wheels. They are some pretty heavy 20's. Any one else have the same problem? Like I said its great on the highway.

AlBundy
12-24-08, 02:46 PM
I'm also here to join the club. I got the PC0741-TCC System Stuck Off-CURRENT and PC1579-P/N to D/R at High Throttle Angle - Power Reduction Mode Active-HISTORY today. I've been stuck in the snow at least twice and yesterday was the only time I recieve a Reduce engine speed message while trying to get out. I also had a TC0073-HISTORY code last week and my car is one of the cars listed on this bulletin below.

Bulletin 63-50-16 dated May 1996.

Basically, the bulletin indicates that there was a software bug in the EBTCM (Electronic Brake / Traction Control Module) for 1996 Cadillacs manufactured with the last 6 digits of the VIN number that are smaller numbers than as follows:


Concours / Deville --- 280478

Eldorado ------------- 614516

Seville -------------- 826978



If you are not having a "real" problem and are getting an invalid DTC due to the software bug you should be able to duplicate the problem as follows:

First, turn the rear air conditioning blower to the lowest fan speed setting. Then, reset the TCS codes to that TC0073 is no longer shown. Now, turn off your engine. Restart the engine after a few minutes and then run the diagnostics again. You should find that the TC0073 does not show up. You should be able to drive around, turn the engine on and off, etc. and the TC0073 should not appear provided that you leave the rear air blower set to the lowest setting. After trying this out, turn the rear air to the highest blower setting and then turn off the engine. When you restart the car and run diagnostics the TC0073 should reappear again as though you have a problem. If this is what happens and your VIN number is within the range as indicated above then you are getting an invalid TC0073 message.

mrroboto
02-22-09, 12:37 PM
?? Rear blower?? What's that?
96 Deville:

Submariner409
02-22-09, 12:42 PM
In some model lines in the rear of the console there is a rear seat air conditioning control panel and air divertors. Some owners complain of weird fan noises, and it turns out to be that someone has left the rear fan speed on high.

carloslara
02-26-09, 10:25 AM
the same shit is happening to me on my deville? did you solved the problem?


The Tech at the Cadillac Dealer tells me the reason my "Service Engine Light" is on is due to the Torque Converter Clutch. They explained my car is not going into overdrive and my gas mileage will suffer. Aside from that they didn't give me much of an explanation on why I need make a repair.

Can anyone please shed some light on what the heck the Torque Converter Clutch is and how urgent the need to repair? The Service Dept wants almost $3,000 to make the repair.

I hadn't noticed the car driving differently, but I took the car in because my Engine Light had come on.

It's a 2002 Deville DTS - 82K milies - according to the work order "Has a PO741 TCC Stuck Off.

Any insights are apppreciated.

Submariner409
02-26-09, 11:36 AM
carlos, If you have a Current P0741 which will not clear or go to History, then the repair involves removing the transmission because the faulty control solenoid has to be changed. It's a $50 part buried $2000 (in labor) inside the transmission.

diamondcaddy
03-14-09, 01:06 PM
The Cadillac dealer sounds like he is on the hunt for more $$.

The odds of having a bad TTC solenoid, bad TC, bad sprocket are out there a bit.

I have had a 1/2 dozen GM vehicles that I drove well over 200K miles. None ever lost a torque coverter.

I even felt my solenoid fail. I was driving 70 mph, felt a bump in the trans, 30 seconds latter the SES lamp was on. PO1860. Latter po741 came on as a result of 1860.

I was also able to verify the ohms reading of the TCC solenoid at the transmission harness connector BEFORE going into the trans.

This should have been the dealers first step.



Logan Diagnostic LLC
www.ledfix.com (http://www.ledfix.com)
www.airbagcrash.com (http://www.airbagcrash.com)
www.logandieselusa.com (http://www.logandieselusa.com)


what is it that you look for when you verify the ohms to rad the otc. My 2000 deville also is giving me an 1860

Submariner409
03-14-09, 01:40 PM
Pins U and T in Connector 100 (transmission umbilical) should show a resistance of 10 - 22 Ohms at about 75 deg. F.

Look at your other similar post up in Deville.

fivo2fst4u
04-04-09, 08:35 PM
Hi, I must be having a different symptom with my PO741 code, I have a 97 Deville, and the car actually feels as though it is kicking out of gear, I can let off the throttle, then ease back into it, and it'll hold (all this happens in overdrive) it may stay in for another 2 seconds, or another 5 miles, then it will kick back out. I have pulled it down in third and sometimes it will engage 3rd, and hold it firmly, or sometimes it does the same thing in
3rd , like it's slipping, sometimes (not often) it acts fine all day, so I dont think it's the clutches, I hate all this electronic, computerized crap, for 35 years transmissions were fine without this junk, oh well, just an old man rambling,lol. Has anyone run into this before though? (not the rambling, the trans problem,lol)

Ranger
04-04-09, 08:38 PM
Have you pulled the DTC's?

fivo2fst4u
04-05-09, 09:09 AM
Hi Ranger, i pulled all the codes from the instrument panel, and the only "Current" code is the PO741, by using the "off" and "warmer" buttons on the climate control. Is there another way to pull codes on this car that I'm not aware of? Thanks

Submariner409
04-05-09, 09:51 AM
The code pull is correct for your car. The P0741 is the TCC fault, which seems to be the main bugaboo, but if the transmission intermittently "slips" or seems to drop a gear, then there may be an impending fault in the 1-2 or 2-3 shift solenoids which control fluid pressures. There is a solenoid kit from GM which addresses this problem as well as installs an additional solenoid bracket/brace.

fivo2fst4u
04-06-09, 11:26 AM
The code pull is correct for your car. The P0741 is the TCC fault, which seems to be the main bugaboo, but if the transmission intermittently "slips" or seems to drop a gear, then there may be an impending fault in the 1-2 or 2-3 shift solenoids which control fluid pressures. There is a solenoid kit from GM which addresses this problem as well as installs an additional solenoid bracket/brace.

Thanks, but shouldn't it throw out another code for shift solenoids?

Submariner409
04-06-09, 12:20 PM
Yes.............notice that I hedged my bet on this one by saying ".....there may be an impending fault......."

If the TCC is stuck off, and possibly tries to engage once in a while, the transmission would not seem to slip or drop a whole gear: it would drop about 300 RPM in 4th at above (?) 41 mph, then go back up, but its a gradual "shift", not abrupt.

jcresciSTS
07-29-09, 06:15 AM
When I bought my car in May 09 it had No Service Engine Soon light on. About a week later it turned on. Pulled codes from a shop, didn't know about the doing it myself, and the P0741 showed up. He cleared the code and it came back on the next day, I just left it on and drove. A few weeks ago I was going through the papers that I received from the previous owner and that code had shown up in July 08, I believe car was around 120k. I bought it with 124k on it and now I have 127k on it. Pulled codes yesterday from the dash and that code was shown. I cleared all codes and it has not come back on yet.

When going to register the car I had to have it smogged, it passed easily. The light was not on but the code had to have been in the system since it came up a year prior.

My avg mpg is 19.6 and on the freeway I'm getting 26/27mpg at 65mph Cruise Control engaged.

Only thing I feel is that when in traffic and letting off the gas at about 6mph when it drops to 4/5mph I feel the car stick at that speed. When coming to a stop sign and not fully stopping but accelerating at that speed I feel a slight kick.

The sticking feeling also happens when I am doing say 37mph and I take my foot off the gas and it drops to 35mph I feel a slight stickiness. I played with this (like an idiot) the other night on the hill to my house and as I went to put my car into Park (also drive and reverse) the car jerked really hard and it was idling at 2k, I turned it off then on and it was fine. Next day when exiting the freeway my car died while making the left hand turn at 15mph then I turned it on and got to work only to find the car jerking when putting it into park (D&R) but was idling at 1500 since then it hasn't done it again.

tmo727
08-03-09, 11:49 AM
my 2001 dts is throwing this code. I had the SES shut off because i failed emissions. So i have now driven about 150 miles and at all speeds and SES has not come back on. I have tried the brake test and the RPM's do rise slightly. Does anyone know how long it takes to complete drive cycle so i can go back in to emissions and try to retest before SES comes back on ??

Submariner409
08-03-09, 02:32 PM
If the SES light is not on and you did not reset the PCM (P) codes you should be good to go. Otherwise, give it a week. (The system needs time to reset in order to give a "ready" code to the test set.) BUT, you might get another TCC hangup in the meantime. Go for it.

jcresciSTS
08-04-09, 04:28 AM
I reset my light on Thursday and it finally came back on Sunday Night/Monday Morning at about 130am. That was after about 160miles of driving. Thankfully this time it was the only code that showed up.

thomassk
08-13-09, 04:51 PM
I have a 1998 Cadillac Deville with a check engine light on with code P0741. The dealer service rep indicates that it is the transmission converter - cost of $3000 to replace. Would this prevent the car from passing a smog test in California?
Thanks

Ranger
08-13-09, 08:35 PM
Yes. Clear the code and drive it in 3rd for a week before you retest it. DO NOT put it in D or once you get to 41 MPH the code resets and you'll have to start all over again.

TAG617
08-28-09, 08:41 AM
I have this code as well. Along with a stupid "Check gas cap" which I believe is related to the EVAP system... Anyway, the P0741 code is wayyyy to expensive to get fixed but I have to pass MA emissions. Problem is I drive on the highway to and from work and usually heavy traffic. So putting it in 3rd for a week doesn't sound like a good idea. Am I right assuming that? Is there something else I can do to get it to pass inspection? If I clear it it usually takes a day or two to come back with normal driving. TIA!

Ranger
08-28-09, 11:17 AM
I have this code as well. Along with a stupid "Check gas cap" which I believe is related to the EVAP system... Anyway, the P0741 code is wayyyy to expensive to get fixed but I have to pass MA emissions. Problem is I drive on the highway to and from work and usually heavy traffic. So putting it in 3rd for a week doesn't sound like a good idea. Am I right assuming that? Is there something else I can do to get it to pass inspection? If I clear it it usually takes a day or two to come back with normal driving. TIA!
No. Won't hurt a thing, other than your fuel mileage.

TAG617
08-28-09, 03:49 PM
Cool, i'll start tonight on the way home. As long as the code doesn't come back within the week I should be good for emissions?

Ranger
08-28-09, 04:47 PM
Yeah, that should do it.

chazglenn3
08-28-09, 07:53 PM
I failed the emissions test here, because I had reset the light before going in. All the sensors showed "not ready". I reset the light again on the way home from the test. Made myself a sandwich, drove around in 3rd for about an hour, then went back and passed the test. Not all of the sensors showed "ready" but enough did to pass the test. Your mileage may vary...

TAG617
08-31-09, 08:21 PM
Cool that quick and it did it for you? I have a fuel line I have to replace and then I will try the third gear trick for a day or two and try the inspection again this weekend. Thanks.

chazglenn3
09-02-09, 09:26 AM
I would suggest keeping it below 41mph if you can while driving around in 3rd gear. That's what I did to avoid the lock-up command being sent as well.

DTECKBAUER
09-11-09, 12:00 PM
So, how do you know that replacing the solenoid will take care of the problem?what symtoms dose a bad torque converter have? I have the p0741 code and have the solenoid, but how can i rule out that there is nothing wrong with the torque converter? I tryed going 50 or 55 mph in OD watching the tac, tapping the brakes and not noticing change in rpms. the only other thing i have noticed odd is after car has been parked awhile (days) once or twice i have noticed that when put in reverse it did not do anything,put in park then back to reverse then it was fine.the engine is comming out on monday so want to take care of it while it is apart. thank you!!

Submariner409
09-11-09, 12:34 PM
P0741 is a definite code: "Torque converter clutch stuck OFF". If you had other faults or transmission pump or line pressure faults, that would set different codes.

If the engine is coming out anyway, and if the similar transmission shift solenoid kit/bracket//upgrade has not also been done, do it all at the same time. ISS, too.

When you refill the transmission use the new DEXRON-VI synthetic. It is 100% backward-compatible with the older -III, but (seat of the pants) seems to give quicker, tighter shifts.

DTECKBAUER
09-11-09, 12:47 PM
So your saying as long as its apart replace the shift solenoid, ISS ? what is that one and what dose it do? and you think the actuale torque converter is ok?

Submariner409
09-11-09, 01:57 PM
I have no way of knowing the health status of a torque converter, BUT they are a long-life item in the 4T80E transmission.

If you're doing the TCC solenoid, yes, do the 2 shift solenoids and bracket. There's a 1-2 and a 2-3 solenoid and modified bracket kit used to replace early failures related to the shift solenoids coming loose.

The ISS (Input Speed Sensor), a different critter than shift solenoids, is a once-in-a-while failure item, but you MUST remove the entire transmission to do it, so better safe than sorry.

Chuck C.
07-01-10, 06:22 PM
Hi Guys, I've been reading this thread with great interest since I just pulled the same code P0741 - right after my SES light came on. I have a 00 DeVille with 105000 miles. I only get about 13-14 mpg in traffic & about 20 on the highway. I had been driving for about 10 minutes locally & just got on the L. I. Expressway when I realized that my shift lever was NOT on "D" but in between "3" & "D". I clicked it onto "D" & the car kicked some - enough kick to make me notice but not alarming. Right after that, (5 minutes) the SES came on. I pulled the codes when I got home & PCM P0741- Current - was the only new one. Did I mess up my tranny by not paying attention when shifting? Do I have to start looking for 14-mm rods?
Chuck. :hmm:

Submariner409
07-01-10, 06:54 PM
I doubt that you messed anything up.......If you live and drive in NYC/near suburban LI, then your mileages are just about correct. The only time you'll ever see the Deville up at 24 - 27 mpg long term average is on the trip up the Northway to Albany and west to Buffalo.

If you can, get on the LI and try to cruise at 55 - flat stretch. Use your gas pedal foot to maintain speed and touch the brake pedal with your left foot. Does the engine rpm jump up by 300? If so, TCC (Torque Converter Clutch) is working.

If you have a base Deville with the 3.11:1 final drive you should see about 1750 rpm at steady cruise 60 mph. If you have the Concours or DTS (3.71;1 ratio) you should see 2,000 rpm at 60. In either case, that rpm will increase by about 300 when you touch the brake pedal and that "tells" the transmission to drop TCC.

jimsbox
07-02-10, 04:21 PM
For what its worth, I bought my 00 DHS with 90,000 miles and getting the 741 and 1860 codes when I bought it. It now has 280,000 miles, only tranny work was a dealer fluid flush at 150,000 and still does fine even with these codes. I am swapping it out with a 90,000 mile junkyard tranny just because I have to pull the engine which has a blown head gasket. Don't need to worry about the TCC code. I still was getting up in the 26 to 28 mpg range on the highway at speeds of 65 to 75 mph.

lobodks2
07-05-10, 04:58 PM
Hi, I'm glad to have finally come across the fix of P0741 on a 99 Deville w/4.6 Northstar which was getting the P0741 code pretty constantly. The very first time I replaced the TCC solenoid and that did make the error go away but only for a few months, after that it started appearing again. So obviuosly the first time around, the fix was pretty expensive and I wasn't about to spend more money on it again and all I was doing was clearing the code and it wouldnt appear for a month or so.
Now here's the fix which I discovered by sheer luck when my brake light pedal switch wasnt working and i replaced, there is another switch right on top of the stoplight switch the look alike and i noticed it was kinda loose, after Adjusting it on place BOOOM! P0741 is gone and has been for 7 months now.
I dont know the technical name of the other switch so if someone wants to pitch in that would be awesome.

People with the P0741 error should try this 1st, its very easy and inexpensive so you will not lose anything but some time.
Now I have not replicated the problem cause I really dont want to, but it worked for me.

Submariner409
07-05-10, 05:11 PM
Curious - the circuit itself should set a P0740 or P0743 code - electrical fault as opposed to "TCC stuck off".

Good catch..................

Ranger
07-05-10, 10:35 PM
That's the TCC/CC disengage switch.

Chuck C.
07-09-10, 01:44 PM
If you can, get on the LI and try to cruise at 55 - flat stretch. Use your gas pedal foot to maintain speed and touch the brake pedal with your left foot. Does the engine rpm jump up by 300? If so, TCC (Torque Converter Clutch) is working.

If you have a base Deville with the 3.11:1 final drive you should see about 1750 rpm at steady cruise 60 mph. If you have the Concours or DTS (3.71;1 ratio) you should see 2,000 rpm at 60. In either case, that rpm will increase by about 300 when you touch the brake pedal and that "tells" the transmission to drop TCC.

I tried this on several occasions. At 60 mph my DeVille hits 1675 RPM pretty consistently, and when I tap the brake, my RPMs jump only about 100-150. Ive tried it at 70 mph & at 50 & the bump is still just about 150 but sometimes only 100.

Chuck

Submariner409
07-09-10, 05:08 PM
Good info - maybe the rpm change is different for the two final drive ratios.............

2001_Seville_SLS
07-12-10, 04:01 AM
In the event that you need to replace the TCC PWM Solenoid Valve, there is no need to pull the transaxle or hang it on all threads. The valve can be replaced with the engine and transaxle in their original location. I posted a how to in Tech Tips.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/203046-malfunction-indicator-light-p0741-p1860.html

jtcne
10-24-10, 02:53 AM
Hi Bob,

How do you go about resetting the p0741 code? I need to get my car inspected and $1000+ repair is not an option at present.

Thanks!

John

Submariner409
10-24-10, 09:55 AM
Hi Bob,

How do you go about resetting the p0741 code? I need to get my car inspected and $1000+ repair is not an option at present.

Thanks!

John

Repair is really the only way to properly turn off the light and stop the code. Read the sticky thread at the top of this main threads page - "How to pull codes" - study the whoe thread, then practice working with the car's built-in code system. You can then "clear codes". The light should go out. BUT, if the fault occurs again, as the TCC tries to engage at about 41 mph, the light will return.

In some models you can drive the car for a couple of weeks with the stick in 3 - if you're primarily a city/near suburban driver that's perfectly fine - the transmission then won't change to 4th and TCC will not attempt to engage. IF that is successful for you, the light should go off in 2 or 3 days of normal driving. IF it does, then it will take another week or so of normal driving - in 3 - for the car's DTC system to set a "ready" flag for the emissions test set.

BTW - Welcome Aboard !!!............:yup:

Ranger
10-24-10, 01:51 PM
Not sure if that will work on a 2000, but can't hurt to try it.

Don't have it tested right after clearing the codes. Uncle Sam anticipated we'd do that and built in a "readiness" test. It will flag that the PCM is not "ready" because the codes where cleared. You'll need to drive it for a few days. If driving it in 3rd works, you're golden, if not, you're screwed.

HamidTheProgrammer
10-25-10, 12:55 PM
I had the exact same code, plus another one on my 2001 Deville DHS which has less than 80K on it. I took it to Martin Cadillac service in Kentucky for inspection. They charged me $100 to the checkup and they gave me an estimate of $2,500 to fix the Trans. The estimate included replacing the solenoid and the TCC that alone cost $650. So I took it to a local Transmission shop few days ago. They replaced the solenoid, which what prevented the clutch form engaging, and some other part that was corroded not related to the trans and the charge of antifreeze fill up. All that for $713. Ive been driving it for few days now and none of the error codes came back so far.

Domino1968
10-29-10, 11:54 PM
Dammit!!! I just got the P0741 and P1860 code today:mad::mad:! Not only that, I was/am on a road trip when it happened! Guess I will be busy working on this when I get back home. I think I am going to try 2001_Seville_SLS's method of replacing the solenoid, if not, I gotta find me some 14mm rods!

Marco
11-28-10, 06:19 AM
Domino,
Please keep us updated on your repair.
I am looking at the same situation, also with a Deville.

Dave NYC
12-31-10, 09:33 PM
This P0741 code is a sad state of affairs. As someone mentioned, before all this computer stuff we did not have to worry about codes that might be ambiguous to prevent passing an inspection. On the other hand, the on board computer helps pinpoint a problem with your car. Too bad the government could just keep the same inspections they used before the on board system and the on board system is used strictly for repairs. But, there is nothing we can do about that.

Yes, I'm a member of the P0741 club and it stinks, as nothing is wrong with my transmission, everything glides smoothly. But, that damn P0741 code popped up, I cleared the code myself and I am trying the drive in third technique. Because, I need to have an inspection done this month.

For people that live in NY, you can get a waiver from your inspection center. It states if you have a code that does not involve serious safety and you spent a minimum of $400 to have it repaired, then a sticker will be issued, as a wavier will be used, all your inspection center has to do is sign it and you sign it and you are good. If it's a mamma and papa type place, you might be able to get the waiver by slipping them an extra $20. So, the worst case scenario would be $400 and a wavier and you will get your sticker.

I just hope this driving in third will fix my inspection problem.

Ranger
12-31-10, 11:32 PM
I just hope this driving in third will fix my inspection problem.
Not sure if that works on an '01, but can't hurt to try.

Dave NYC
01-01-11, 09:33 AM
Not sure if that works on an '01, but can't hurt to try.

Hi, what's the year range of a caddy that 'driving in third' might trick the OBD to not throw the P0741. Is there anyone that used this trick and was able to keep that code from popping up, while driving in third? If so, what year was your car?

Thanks-

mhamilton
01-01-11, 10:07 AM
Hi, what's the year range of a caddy that 'driving in third' might trick the OBD to not throw the P0741. Is there anyone that used this trick and was able to keep that code from popping up, while driving in third? If so, what year was your car?

I think it should work on all years... as long as you use 3rd the trans won't try to go into lockup, the PCM won't see a slipping input-vs-output speed condition, and it won't set the code.

Ranger
01-01-11, 09:08 PM
I forget the year range, but I know people here have used it and it worked. Others with newer cars have tried it and it didn't so I'm pretty sure some changes have been made. I have the same problem, but no need to do it as I am not subjected to emissions testing.

Bowler807
01-05-11, 12:07 AM
The torque converter locks up in third in my 03.

I also had the P0741 code. I just spent $1500 to replace the bad seals and torque converter. What a difference. After connecting his scan tool the mechanic said the transmission was slipping about 300 RPM in all gears. Since the repair I notice the tach is lower at any given speed in any gear. It seems that it was money well spent.

Toddalin
01-06-11, 02:13 PM
Hi guys and gals.

I'm new to this forum and have and Olds Aurora with a Northstar that is throwing Code P0741 (it's not just a Caddie problem). The car has done this since new in 1999 and the Cadillac/Olds dealer changed the trannie twice (first time at ~50 miles). Other than the SES light, there is no apparent manifestation of the problem (but from this thread I now know the brake tap trick to check it out).

I need to get the car in for smog so disconnected the battery for a while. This cleared the codes and the car passed all emissions requirements, but the car failed because the battery had been disconnected and the computer had not reset. The guy said that I needed to drive it 50-100 mi.

I was driving the car through the canyons and no SES came on even at speeds of ~55 mph. Phew!!!! Jump on the freeway at about 40 miles on the odometer since reset, come up to cruise (~70 mph), look down and SHOOT the SES came on.

Ammco said that worst case scenario to replace would be ~$700, but now could not even look at the car because of the smog failure and it must go to a BAR station which would bring it to them.

One shop wanted $850 to replace the solonoid. The guy reset the code and put out the SES. I've told my wife to leave the car in 3 for the next week in hopes that this will get me through smog.

Let's hope!

Toddalin
01-06-11, 03:11 PM
Update:

Wife took the car to Yoga and left it in 3rd. SES STILL CAME ON just as she returned home.

I guess it's off to a different AAMCO.

Toddalin
01-06-11, 06:20 PM
An update for those who may care.

I decided to take it to an independant on a recommendation. He also said he would beat AAMCO's price.

I did the brake tap test on the way over to the shop, and as I thought, the torque converter lock-up solonoid is functioning properly as it always has. I took the car up to ~52 mph and while holding the accellerator steady, tapped the brakes. The tach instantly came up ~200 RPM, stayed for a couple seconds, then returned. So at least I'm not looking at a solonoid.

On the other hand, the cost of the solonoid is minimal next to the labor and trying to solve the problem is often more labor intensive than fixing a known defective part. Anyway, he said he would not exceed $650. We'll see what happens.

Dave NYC
01-07-11, 06:56 AM
OK,

So far so good. About a week ago I cleared the P0741 code with my OBD II scanner tool. The code has not popped up as I have been driving in third to prevent the P0741 code to pop up.

The OBD II tool has two more things to check, the two remaining things are the ones with the arrows pointing to it in the pic below, they are blinking. Does anyone know what the two with the arrows are checking? Since I have been driving in third it is taking a little longer for the drive cycle complete.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6751/5169s4twfelss400.jpg

Also, has anyone on this thread really beat the P0741 code so they can pass inspection (while driving in third)? Out of the three lights on my tool, the yellow light is lit. I'm hoping it will go to green once the tool finishes testing the drive cycle while driving in third. (the picture is just a stock photo of what my OBD tool looks like, disregard what it says, i.e. pending codes. I put the pic up to show the two remaining that are blinking on my tool)

Thanks for any help you can give~

Ranger
01-07-11, 12:00 PM
Why don't you use the cars onboard diagnostic system to pull the codes?


Also, has anyone on this thread really beat the P0741 code so they can pass inspection (while driving in third)?
It HAS been done. Just not sure if it will work on your year. If the code does not return while in third (for a week or so), you should be good to go.

Dave NYC
01-07-11, 12:23 PM
Why don't you use the cars onboard diagnostic system to pull the codes?

I pull the codes by plugging in the OBD II scanner directly into the car under the dash. I don't know how to pull and clear codes without the tool. So, it is easier to use the scanner tool.

It is really snowing and I just came back from NJ and the code still has not popped up. But, it is still lit up yellow. Hopefully after the drive cycle completes, it will light green (figners crossed).

Thanks for the advice:)

Submariner409
01-07-11, 02:11 PM
Go to the top of the main Seville, Deville, or Northstar Performance threads page(s) and study the sticky post "How to pull codes". (Right now it's just above this thread on the page) Practice (piece of cake) and then write down any codes and whether they are Current or History - return to the sticky and open the proper link for your car year to get to a Master Index of code definitions for P,B,C, and U codes.

The little AC and O icons may very well not exist for your car - aftermarket scanners are pretty generic, and as with any test gear, you really get what you pay for with these things. Why not learn the built-in scanner operation and bounce the two off one another ??

Option #3 - Look at www.scangauge.com (http://www.scangauge.com) - you can set it to monitor codes while driving, similar to your present plug-in.

Toddalin
01-07-11, 06:44 PM
The mechanic said that he pulled the pan and there were chucks of metal and needle bearing in it. He thinks it's plugging up the system and this is setting the code. Really weird considering it showed no problems. He'll pull it apart and figure it out. A replacement trannie from GM (remanufactured) with 2 year warrantee would be $2,400. OUCH!

Submariner409
01-07-11, 06:57 PM
A replacement trannie from GM (remanufactured) with 2 year warrantee would be $2,400. OUCH!

:stirpot: Too bad we're not fooling with a simple 4-speed manual Muncie. Wait 'till you see the labor to install it..................

Toddalin
01-07-11, 07:44 PM
A replacement trannie from GM (remanufactured) with 2 year warrantee would be $2,400. OUCH!

:stirpot: Too bad we're not fooling with a simple 4-speed manual Muncie. Wait 'till you see the labor to install it..................

I got the feeling that he was talking installed, but...

I replaced the Muncie M20 in my '64 Vette with a new (not remanufactured) 5-speed Keisler/Tremec after having the Muncie rebuilt. Keisler was $2,300 and $600 labor.

Toddalin
01-07-11, 07:49 PM
A replacement trannie from GM (remanufactured) with 2 year warrantee would be $2,400. OUCH!

:stirpot: Too bad we're not fooling with a simple 4-speed manual Muncie. Wait 'till you see the labor to install it..................


BTW, some of the Muncie's internal parts are now very expensive.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_00032.jpg

Dave NYC
01-09-11, 03:26 AM
OK,

Upon further research, NY state has 11 moniters that scan the OBD II. Before I cleared my code (P0741) all 11 moniters were solid (meaning they were ready, but I had a P0741 code and I cleared it). When a moniter is not ready, the scan tool blinks the one that is not ready. As it stands now, I only have 1 moniter that is blinking on my OBD II scan tool.

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2888/codel.jpg

Below is a quote from the NY state guidelines on OBD II rediness,

There are a total of 11 possible monitors, 2001 and newer vehicles will fail when 2 or more monitors are reported as “Not Ready.” There are a few vehicle exceptions to these guidelines, but the NYVIP inspection software makes these cases transparent to the inspector. Consistent with federal guidance, the three continuous monitors are not considered in the readiness determination as these are anticipated to be Ready. In summary, the readiness status of all supported, non-continuous monitors are only considered in making the OBD II pass or fail determination.For most gasoline-powered vehicles, this involves 3 to 5 monitors.

So, as it stands now, I do not have any DTC codes, the SES light is not on (due to driving in third). I'm just waiting for the last of the 11 moniters to stop blinking. But, NY state says you are allowed to have 1 that is not ready and still pass. I don't want to wait for the last minute to get inspected. I know that all 11 moniters work on my car and one is blinking. In a perfect world, I would take the car to get inspected as there are no codes present and I'm allowed to have one moniter not ready. But, I'm going to continue to drive for a short while (in third) and hopefully that remaining moniter will be ready. I just wish I knew what "O" means.

@submariner409 thanks for your advice. But, the scanner tool I have reads all 11 moniters and it clears codes and it lets you know when the car is ready for inspection, it is got everything one needs for my purposes. Thanks for the advice~

Submariner409
01-09-11, 11:49 AM
Remember that, when you "clear codes" it takes a week or two of driving for the emissions system to complete all its checks and then set the "ready" flag.

Muncie ------ referenced not so much for expense but in terms of "relatively easy to rebuild and install". Yep - I went through a couple in '65 Chevelle SS's and a '67 Corvette. Long throw, slow shifting SOB........remember the reverse lift trigger ?

Dave NYC
01-18-11, 01:39 AM
Will driving in third hurt the car? I have been driving in third to prevent the P0741 from going on. So far the code has not come on. I'm just waiting for 1 remaining system check, it is either O or 0. I don't know how much more driving I have to do for the "O" to stop blinking. Once it stops, then my car will be ready for inspection. I heard O stood for oxygen. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2888/codel.jpg

Ranger
01-18-11, 11:36 AM
Driving in 3rd won't hurt anything but your wallet. Higher RPMs = higher fuel usage. I suppose if you want to get real technical higher RPM's also means more engine wear, but consider that the Northstar was tested at WOT for 300 hrs (12.5 days) straight.

RippyPartsDept
01-18-11, 12:15 PM
I wonder if the 'O' is for Overdrive?
you'll never pass that while driving in third... but i wouldn't start driving in D just yet - plus that would almost guarantee the light to come back on and the code to set

Toddalin
01-18-11, 04:54 PM
I picked up the Aurora yesterday.

They put in a rebuilt trans with a new torque converter. Good to his word, the price was $2,400 for parts and labor with a 2 year warrantee (that will get me through the next smog cycle). The actual bill was a bit higher (just <$3,000) because it also included the two high pressure hoses, a new thermostat, and sales tax, though he shifted some parts to labor to save on tax. He even threw in a free detail that I can go back and use.

Anywho, the registration is due today.

I left the transmission shop yesterday afternoon (they picked me up) and put about 40 miles on the car on the way home. My wife drove it a bit (hot start) and I let it cool down before putting another 15 miles on it last night (cool start).

This morning (cold start) I took it out for a drive through the canyons and freeways, and came home. Later I took it out (warm start) and got lunch (hot start) and got fuel (fuel Evap cycle?), then took it up for a jaunt on the freeway before taking it in and having it tested.

All told I put 141 miles on it in two days and the shop said they put on about 20 miles before I picked it up.

All systems were showing OK and it passed no problem.

Dave NYC
01-20-11, 03:57 PM
I Freaking passed!:domo:

OK, as you know I had that "0" or "O" still blinking on my OBD II scanner. When I read that in NY state if two or more monitors were not "ready" I would fail. Being I only had 1 monitor not ready, I decided to risk it.

Here are the chain of events, My SES light came on and I bought an OBD II scanner to read the code P0741. I reset the OBD II and turned off the SES light.

I drove it in Third as suggested (to prevent the P0741 code to pop on) for awhile until all but one monitor was blinking on my scanner. I took it to the inspection center and they plugged in their tool that is connected to the state system.

After they got that reading, they put my car on the rack and took one of my wheels off. So, at that point I figured I aced the OBD readiness. Otherwise, they would not have taken the wheel off, then they checked the lights and turn signals, etc;. 10 minutes later I was told I passed and got the sticker ($37).

So, I'm really relieved!! That driving in third really worked!!

Thanks for everyone's help & advice-


I wonder if the 'O' is for Overdrive? you'll never pass that while driving in third... but i wouldn't start driving in D just yet - plus that would almost guarantee the light to come back on and the code to set
It might stand for Oxygen or Overdrive. I tried to research it and I was thinking Oxygen. Nevertheless, I passed. Thanks for your previous advice.

Dave~

Ranger
01-20-11, 10:06 PM
That driving in third really worked!!
And this was on an '01. Good to know. Thanks for the feedback.

Dave NYC
01-20-11, 11:05 PM
And this was on an '01. Good to know. Thanks for the feedback.

Correct an 01' Deville.

Also, it takes a very long time for that SES light to pop back on after resetting the OBD II, for the p0741 code. The scanner worked to turn the light off, and it let me know when systems were a go for inspection. The best 30 something bucks I ever spent (the OBD II scanner).

Ranger
01-20-11, 11:18 PM
Yeah, mine hasn't returned in a while (but I'm sure it will). Conditions have to be just right for a system check AND the slippage has to be beyond certain parameters. If all those stars are not aligned, the code will not set.

tateos
01-21-11, 11:27 PM
Doesn't seem right that you should fail an emissions test due to a fairly minor trans issue - something that makes your trans work like all trannies worked before TC lockup came out in the early 1980s

Dave NYC
01-21-11, 11:41 PM
Doesn't seem right that you should fail an emissions test due to a fairly minor trans issue - something that makes your trans work like all trannies worked before TC lockup came out in the early 1980s

That makes sense. However, an SES light is an automatic fail and with a P0741 code it's a fail (in NY). So, by clearing the OBD, turning off the SES light and keeping an eye on my engine cycle status with my scanner, I passed. Otherwise, I would have to spend 800 bucks to 3000 bucks for a tranny job and the P0741 is not a chronic problem for me (knock on wood). But, not passing the inspection would have been a chronic problem, as I park on the streets of Manhattan, I would get an $85 ticket every day for an expired inspection sticker. I wish things were like they were back in the 80's and before. But, on the other hand, the OBD II helps pinpoint a problem or point you in the right direction in repairing a problem.

tateos
01-24-11, 12:11 PM
I'm just saying, a trans problem has nothing to do with emissions. If I have an ABS code, or an AC code, that doesn't light the MIL - why should a trans problem, and a minor problem at that?

Dave NYC
01-24-11, 12:25 PM
I'm just saying, a trans problem has nothing to do with emissions. If I have an ABS code, or an AC code, that doesn't light the MIL - why should a trans problem, and a minor problem at that?

I fully agree. Unfortunately, the P0741 code eventually sets off the SES light and once that light is on, it's an automatic fail. Even though it has nothing to do with emissions. So, that code has to be cleared and the SES light has to be turned off in order to pass inspection (a drive cycle has to be done so all systems are a go and to prevent that P0741 to pop on and set off the SES light, driving in third for a complete drive cycle remedies this problem).

Ranger
01-24-11, 01:13 PM
I'm just saying, a trans problem has nothing to do with emissions. If I have an ABS code, or an AC code, that doesn't light the MIL - why should a trans problem, and a minor problem at that?
It depends on who you talk to. The EPA and tree huggers link it to emissions because it reduces that last bit of trans slippage, thus reducing RPM, which in turn burns less fuel. I know, I know, it's only about 300 RPM, but they will tell you every little bit counts and multiply that by millions of cars. :noidea: Don't shoot the messenger.

Toddalin
01-24-11, 10:48 PM
It depends on who you talk to. The EPA and tree huggers link it to emissions because it reduces that last bit of trans slippage, thus reducing RPM, which in turn burns less fuel. I know, I know, it's only about 300 RPM, but they will tell you every little bit counts and multiply that by millions of cars. :noidea: Don't shoot the messenger.

Agreed. The irony is that when they do the emissions test in CA, they run the car on the dyno at 5 mph and at 25 mph, neither of which would lock up the converter.

Also in CA all they care about is the emissions check. My Aurora had a bad radiator cap and was puking water all over the floor, but the test people didn't care about that and would not fail the car for that. The gentleman who said they went on to check his brakes after passing smog has more to worry about than we do in CA.

Dave NYC
02-08-11, 11:11 PM
Hi friends,

As you know I have the P0741 code that I was able to by pass it, to pass inspection by driving in third. I was concerned about the inspection because I have to park on the streets on NYC and it's an $85 ticket everyday if you have an expired sticker and the weather was so bad here that I had a small window to get it inspected by using the drive in third method. Now I can address this problem at my leisure.

The other day I was noticing when I stopped at a red light, it took a few extra seconds for the car to speed up with the others. So, I checked for a new code and sure enough I have a P0717 code (Speed Sensor).

So, now I have no choice but to have this problem fixed, my SES light is not on (yet). But, it's only a matter of time before it will go on and I don't want to cause any serious damage to my transmission with these two codes.

How should I address this problem? I know this involves a lot of work and I'm on a tight budget and I have no choice but to have someone else do it for me, as I live in the city. I don't want to get robbed. I still need to drive the car to take my mother to the doctor and run a few errands before I have it fixed. So, how long can I drive with a malfunctioning speed sensor (along with the P0741) and how much would a job like this cost. This way when I call for estimates, I know what to expect.

Thank you for any advice you can give.

Submariner409
02-09-11, 10:49 AM
The VSS - Vehicle Speed Sensor - is on top of the passenger side wheel drive shaft housing. You can drive with the fault, but it will eventually cause other transmission problems - maybe second gear starts only (your lack of acceleration).

A local shop can replace it if you don't have common hand tools, but they'll want to get the list price markup on the sensor. otherwise, get in touch with Chris at RippyParts up in Vendors ^^ or search www.rockauto.com.

Dave NYC
02-09-11, 02:04 PM
Thanks for the advice. But, I think we might be talking about two different things. Because, what you are saying sounds really easy compared to what I have read on the link below. Remember I have the code P0717 Input Speed Sensor). Please take a look at the link below and let me know if this is the same thing you are talking about.

Thanks..

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/38769-input-speed-sensor-p0717-replacement.html

Submariner409
02-09-11, 03:05 PM
Didn't read the whole post - my bad. The ISS is the worst sensor to replace - requires complete transmission removal and disassembly.

Dave NYC
02-09-11, 03:55 PM
Thats OK.

I guess that I already have the P0741, that it makes sense to have everything fixed. How long can I drive with the car until get it all fixed and how much $ am I looking at?

Ranger
02-09-11, 09:55 PM
You can drive it forever with the P0741. The repair will be expensive. $2000 neighborhood I'm guessing.

Dave NYC
02-09-11, 10:07 PM
You can drive it forever with the P0741. The repair will be expensive. $2000 neighborhood I'm guessing.

I was not too worried about the P0741. But, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I started to notice that when I came to a red light, it took a few extra seconds for my car to catch up with the rest and I found the P0717 Input Speed Sensor code.

So, how long can I drive with P0717?

Thanks

Ranger
02-09-11, 10:40 PM
:noidea:

Submariner409
02-10-11, 11:02 AM
There's another thread on this same question - Seville/Deville ^^^ ??

Your car may have defaulted to starting in 2nd gear. Watch the DIC gear indicator ???

Dave NYC
02-22-11, 07:46 AM
Well, my biggest fear happened. With the P0717 & P0741, I had no choice but to take it in ASAP. I called around for several estamites and decided to go with Aamco. Here in NYC there are too many mamma and papa shops located in high rent areas. Just to take the tranny apart I have to pay. The closest Aamco is in The Bronx. I went to my car and it started up fine. When I put in drive, the engine rebbed, but, the wheels did not move, no matter what gear I used, including reverse. So, I knew I was in serious trouble. I called Aamco as they provide "free" towing.

After 2 days, they called me and said my Input Speed Sensor was completely melted inside my tranny. They said they never saw this before and my entire tranny had to be rebuilt. I believed it, as I never did anything to maintain my tranny for about 5 years. The cost is over 3300 bucks for the rebuild. If I took care of this problem much earlier, it would have been close to half...a lesson learned for me.

Aside from the tranny, the car is fine. I did everything, except maintain my tranny. I love my Caddy, I did not want to junk/sell it to buy a slightly newer one of the same modle. I could not afford it, I can't even afford this repair. But, I had no choice. My mother suffers from MS and can hardly walk. So, I need the car.

So, I'm going to stay ontop of maintaning everything on my car to prevent another costly repair.

Dave NYC
02-23-11, 11:54 PM
I wanted to share the labor, parts, etc; to some of you seasoned Caddy owners. I want to know if this price jives with all the parts & labor. Remember, I live in NYC were a pack of smokes cost $12 to $14. By the way, the car runs better than it did when I bought it years ago. So, please let me know if the repairs make sense. Thank you.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4273/aamcoreciptrevisied.jpg

Submariner409
02-24-11, 09:20 AM
Unfortunately, given the cost of parts at list price and your labor area, that invoice looks to be right in the ball park for the work performed.

I live in a semi-rural area with my neighbor, Charlie The Transmission Man, 200 yards up our dirt and gravel road. (Yes, he does run a transmission shop.) He says the invoice looks good - $700 too high for here, but OK for "big city".

Dave NYC
02-24-11, 10:45 AM
Unfortunately, given the cost of parts at list price and your labor area, that invoice looks to be right in the ball park for the work performed.

I live in a semi-rural area with my neighbor, Charlie The Transmission Man, 200 yards up our dirt and gravel road. (Yes, he does run a transmission shop.) He says the invoice looks good - $700 too high for here, but OK for "big city".

Thanks for the reply. I figured the work looked about right. I was friendly with the owner and he said he pays $26,000 a month rent for his shop. Plus, overhead, etc;. As for the parts, I was at their mercy. I live in Manhattan and the Aamco was in the Bronx, a 75 minute subway ride or a $25 taxi ride. So, it would have been too hard to find each part they needed on my own. Plus, I needed the car fixed quickly.

I'm not too happy with the price of the job. But, they did a solid job with a 12 month warrenty. I have to drive up in 10 days for a follow up (free), so they can check their work.

RippyPartsDept
02-24-11, 11:29 AM
yeah, looks about right to me... the only thing they could have done to screw you was replace parts that didn't need replacing
(and i don't really know of a way you can catch them on that)
one of the main reasons that trust is a key factor in choosing who works on your cars (or house or computers, etc etc)

and i'm not saying that i think they did that... those parts they replaced probably did need replacing as they're some of the more commonly worn out parts on these transmissions

Dave NYC
02-24-11, 11:45 AM
yeah, looks about right to me... the only thing they could have done to screw you was replace parts that didn't need replacing
(and i don't really know of a way you can catch them on that)
one of the main reasons that trust is a key factor in choosing who works on your cars (or house or computers, etc etc)

and i'm not saying that i think they did that... those parts they replaced probably did need replacing as they're some of the more commonly worn out parts on these transmissions

I was referred to this Aamco by a friend that has his cars worked on for years there. They saved 'my' old parts so I could inspect them. He had them in a milk crate. I'm pretty sure the old parts came from my car. He showed me the damage and some parts looked somewhat usable. But, on a job like this, it was better to go with new stuff. So, I trust this place a lot more than shops that had no rep.

Thanks for your input.

RippyPartsDept
02-24-11, 12:15 PM
cool... that's even more encouraging

agavrysh
02-24-11, 04:21 PM
I have passed my emissions just by driving very carefully. I noticed that on any little inclines (with speed over 41 mph) with a foot barely holding the gas pedal my Service transmission light would pop up. Anyways, i drove until all lights would go out and passed the emissions. Right now, 2 month later, even driving "carefully" sometimes doesn't help, as it became worst i believe. However, when i drive in 3rd gear the service transmission and SES lights go off. I will take it to my friend mechanic shop to see what exactly the problem is and how much it's going to cost to fix it.

RippyPartsDept
02-24-11, 04:47 PM
Book time is about 11 hours of labor to get in there to replace the parts... and another 11 to put it all back together

parts costs are nothing in comparison... some seals, fluid and a solenoid valve ... and anything else you feel like doing while you're in there - plus anything that the transmission tech thinks needs to be replaced

elizabear77
03-02-11, 08:52 PM
my check engine light just came on and i took it to auto zone n they pulled up that p0741 and toll me it was the tcc how do i kno if its just a sensor and were its it located :bonkers:

Ranger
03-02-11, 09:14 PM
Forget AZ and learn to pull your own codes. See the sticky at the top of the forum page.

P0741 alone is the converter, not the solenoid or any sensor. P0741 & P1860 are the solenoid.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/149834-information-p0741-p1860-1998-a.html

Dave NYC
03-02-11, 09:23 PM
my check engine light just came on and i took it to auto zone n they pulled up that p0741 and toll me it was the tcc how do i kno if its just a sensor and were its it located :bonkers:

That is not a good code to have. You should have that taken care of and or looked at ASAP. They say you can drive with a P0741 forever. But, these codes pop up for a reason. When I got the P0741, I had it cleared and the SES light did not come on. But, on my DIC I would get a message to "Service Transmission Soon." Then if I restarted the car that message would not display. A few months later, the SES light popped on and I got the P0741 and a P0717 and the transmission stopped working as my ISS sensor melted inside the transmission itself. It is like a domino effect as one code sets off an other and before you know it your transmission needs to be opened up. To get rid of the p0741 will cost a couple thousand...unless you know how to open a transmission and have the time and tools for it. Read some of the posts above yours and go backwards, scroll up and then go to page 11 then 10, etc, and keep reading the posts and you will come across the diagram of your problem.

Good Luck~

gkw44
07-08-11, 11:52 AM
I have this code on my 2003 Cadillac Seville STS...120,000 miles. At 70,000 miles the torque convertor solenoid was replaced and then a week later under warranty the torque convertor was replaced. Now the current Cadillac dealer is quoting a $4,100 repair to tear down the transmission and replace these parts again. What are my options on this. I don't have a 'local' mechanic that I can trust to do such a job, should I try AAMCO and how reliable are they. I am at a loss to have to spend this type of money...why did these parts only last 3 years?
Any help/advice would be appreciated. They tell me they might not have to replace all the parts, but won't know until they tear it all down.

Dave NYC
07-08-11, 12:07 PM
I have this code on my 2003 Cadillac Seville STS...120,000 miles. At 70,000 miles the torque convertor solenoid was replaced and then a week later under warranty the torque convertor was replaced. Now the current Cadillac dealer is quoting a $4,100 repair to tear down the transmission and replace these parts again. What are my options on this. I don't have a 'local' mechanic that I can trust to do such a job, should I try AAMCO and how reliable are they. I am at a loss to have to spend this type of money...why did these parts only last 3 years?
Any help/advice would be appreciated. They tell me they might not have to replace all the parts, but won't know until they tear it all down.

I was in the same boat as you are in now. I did not have a local mechanic and I sure as hell was not going to have a dealer fix it. So, I had no choice but to go to Aamco. The more expensive a car costs, the more it costs to fix. I posted the below invoice a page or two back on this thread and most people agreed that the prices looked about right. Being I live in New York City, of course I'm going to pay a bit more than outside of the city. Aamco does a good job and they stand by their work, if something goes wrong, you can take it to any Aamco in any state while it's still under warranty to have it fixed. Since having the transmission fixed, the car runs like it did if it were brand new. Aamco has free towing pick up service if your car does not run.

Here is what you might be looking at if you decide to go with Aamco,

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4273/aamcoreciptrevisied.jpg

RippyPartsDept
07-08-11, 12:15 PM
When the code appears alone without other codes it means there's a problem with the seals (which should have been replaced when they went in to do the solenoid 50,000 miles ago)

the recommended repair is a solenoid, a gasket kit, the side cover itself, a driven support, and the torque converter

the solenoid only replacement is for when p0741 and p1860 show up together (which is an indication that the solenoid itself is bad)

i would assume your solenoid is fine then but there are seals that at least need to be replaced

all the money in this job is usually in the labor so you might as well get as many parts as you can afford

we have a good relationship with our local AAMCO - i would suggest you at least get a quote from them

good luck

gkw44
07-08-11, 12:19 PM
thanks, I saw the invoice, I have detail from the dealer and it is almost identical to your AAMCO bill. I live in a rural area, so will have to see if I can find an AAMCO to give me an estimate. I know they have been around for a long time, so they must be reliable. My big question is why do I have to have this done again after 3 years. Shouldn't Cadillac, even though different dealership stand by their work?

gkw44
07-08-11, 12:26 PM
When the code appears alone without other codes it means there's a problem with the seals (which should have been replaced when they went in to do the solenoid 50,000 miles ago)

the recommended repair is a solenoid, a gasket kit, the side cover itself, a driven support, and the torque converter

the solenoid only replacement is for when p0741 and p1860 show up together (which is an indication that the solenoid itself is bad)

i would assume your solenoid is fine then but there are seals that at least need to be replaced

all the money in this job is usually in the labor so you might as well get as many parts as you can afford

we have a good relationship with our local AAMCO - i would suggest you at least get a quote from them

good luck

Yes both codes are showing up according to the diagnostic that Cadillac gave me...so you say solenoid only, and they say complete transmission repair. They have given me detail of each cost..gasket kit $$311.72, cover trans case $346.54, Support drive sprocket $296.35, and Torq convertor $533.31....Total labor $2,440.00. When solenoid was repaired gasket and valve were replaced. A week later light came back on and they replaced the torque convertor but did not charge me for it, invoice says 'warranty', but not sure it was. I complained that they should have caught it in the first place when they did the solenoid repair.

89falcon
07-08-11, 09:03 PM
I have this code on my 2003 Cadillac Seville STS...120,000 miles. At 70,000 miles the torque convertor solenoid was replaced and then a week later under warranty the torque convertor was replaced. Now the current Cadillac dealer is quoting a $4,100 repair to tear down the transmission and replace these parts again. What are my options on this. I don't have a 'local' mechanic that I can trust to do such a job, should I try AAMCO and how reliable are they. I am at a loss to have to spend this type of money...why did these parts only last 3 years?
Any help/advice would be appreciated. They tell me they might not have to replace all the parts, but won't know until they tear it all down.

Anyone know if a tranny out of a DTS "NHP" will work in a 03 STS?

if it will, I'd buy this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-CADILLAC-NORTHSTAR-V-8-ENGINE-TRANS-DTS-2006-/270498400920?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3efaf60a98

use the new trans and sell the new engine.....I'd say use the new engine also, but I understand that it uses a diff crank so the ignition won't work.....if it were just the fuel system (throttle by wire), you could swap intakes.....

In any case, GMPartsdirect.com sells a new transmission for about $2100.......why bother rebuilding the old one...something is making it fail...

Dave NYC
07-08-11, 10:37 PM
Hmmm, it might easier said than done. I'm not sure I would layout 3K plus about $400 shipping for a part on eBay (does it come with a GM warrenty?). It sounds tempting. But, too many things could go wrong by buying an engine disgined for an other model car. Plus, how much would the labor be? Now if the car did not have an engine at all, perhaps that might be the way to go. The tranny is one of the most expensive parts to repair, due to all the labor it takes to pull it apart. But, look at your options. As it stands now, Aamco might be the best way to go. But, that is because I got good results with Aamco and my car is running like if it were brand new and Aamco's tranny work is under warrenty for 36 months.

Daniel DiPietro
11-15-11, 12:45 PM
I disagree. I am removing a 4t80e right now and the owner thought that you can drive it forever with that code as well. sorry but that is b.s. the p0741 code stops the transmission from shifting into overdrive. that means if you try a long distance run like he did chances are you will fry the transmission. he tried driving from las vegas to southern california. he didn't even make it to jean less then a half hour away. could have been the heat of summer that helped but its mostly operator error. better yet it was a dumbass thinking it doesn't feel like something is wrong and ignoring the warning light and his mechanic telling him repairs are needed! come on people are you seriously not thinking or something? you all have one of the most well built cars in the world and you think you'll notice when something is truely wrong when the car is telling you something is! the car is all about driver luxury, its made to sheild you from the outside and maintain driveability when there is a problem. it has all those sensors, computers, etc.. to tell you there is a problem before its obvious in most cases. again if this code comes up and you drive it a few miles a month and never over 45 mph then yeah you might be able to drive it forever. however if you drive 50 miles a day on the freeway its a matter of time. remeber the p0741 can set when the tcc solenoid is in perfect working order, but the transmissions internal seals will be leaking and will fail completely in time. don't think so then roll the dice. don't listen to them listen to your $50,000+ car and fix it. by the way i'm a mechanic and i've had my own shop for fifteen years.

RippyPartsDept
11-15-11, 02:46 PM
P0471 Prevents TCC lockup not overdrive (which is 4th gear) ... something else was wrong with that transmission

Ranger
11-15-11, 09:52 PM
:yeah:


the p0741 code stops the transmission from shifting into overdrive. by the way i'm a mechanic and i've had my own shop for fifteen years.
Better study up on this transmission.

Dave NYC
11-18-11, 12:28 PM
I have to agree with Ranger.

maeng9981
11-18-11, 05:22 PM
Even if it prevented going into overdrive, driving in 3rd is considered as normal and will fry nothing. Manual also says that 3 can be used in everyday driving. The gear ratio is 1:1. By the way if the transmission does not shift into 4th then there is some other fault besides p0741.

Here's the exact word from the manual:


THIRD (3): This position is also used for normal driving however, it offers more power and lower fuel economy than OVERDRIVE(D).

Here are examples for using THIRD (3) instead of OVERDRIVE (D):
When driving on hilly, winding roads.
When towing a trailer, so there is less shifting between gears.
When going down a steep hill.

cbishodr
03-30-12, 09:42 PM
If I'm paying (or owning) a $50,000 vehicle that is supposed to be the epitomy of luxury I would be frustrated that it was built/designed with such a prevalent failure? When i was growing up, if you had a Cadillac you were somebody. Now, I really like my Cadillac, but when I'm paying for a repair that far exceeds the KBB or NADA value of the car then I'm probably not being very fiscally responsible. Of course, I have to remember the era when these cars were being built, we were in the good times of the late nineties and American automakers had not yet realized they were about to bring themselves to the brink of extinction. So the Big Three were spewing out marginal vehicles for the consumer (Chrysler has a like-in-kind Class Action lawsuit against them with their V6 engine from this era). The bottom line for me is, what's reality is it's a poor design to put relatively inexpensive sensors,switches,etc. behind $2000-$3000 labor cost. That is the corporation not proactively considering what might fail 120,000 miles from now and thinking about the guy who has to come behind them and try and correct the problem.If I pay that much for a vehicle that claims it is one of the finest luxury cars available , then I expect it to be engineered and designed to be basically flawless, I don't believe that is too much to ask from American automotive engineering. And , yes, of course, I am a proud card carrying member of the 'P0741 Club'.[/FONT]


I disagree. I am removing a 4t80e right now and the owner thought that you can drive it forever with that code as well. sorry but that is b.s. the p0741 code stops the transmission from shifting into overdrive. that means if you try a long distance run like he did chances are you will fry the transmission. he tried driving from las vegas to southern california. he didn't even make it to jean less then a half hour away. could have been the heat of summer that helped but its mostly operator error. better yet it was a dumbass thinking it doesn't feel like something is wrong and ignoring the warning light and his mechanic telling him repairs are needed! come on people are you seriously not thinking or something? you all have one of the most well built cars in the world and you think you'll notice when something is truely wrong when the car is telling you something is! the car is all about driver luxury, its made to sheild you from the outside and maintain driveability when there is a problem. it has all those sensors, computers, etc.. to tell you there is a problem before its obvious in most cases. again if this code comes up and you drive it a few miles a month and never over 45 mph then yeah you might be able to drive it forever. however if you drive 50 miles a day on the freeway its a matter of time. remeber the p0741 can set when the tcc solenoid is in perfect working order, but the transmissions internal seals will be leaking and will fail completely in time. don't think so then roll the dice. don't listen to them listen to your $50,000+ car and fix it. by the way i'm a mechanic and i've had my own shop for fifteen years.

----------

Ranger-

I'm really trying not to be ignorant here, but I am not seeing those 'sticky' post/threads "at the top of the forum page" on how to read your own codes. Please advise. Am I blind?

Dave NYC
03-31-12, 02:04 AM
I tried the old driving in third trick with a P0741 code and it worked well enough to keep the SES light off so I could pass my yearly inspection. But, sure enough driving in third caused even more damage to the tranny, everything was melted (sensors etc;). So, when a P0741 pops on. Don't try to by pass it with the driving in third trick. Does the manual say ...if you get a P0741 to drive it in third? No. Get your tranny fixed asap to prevent even more damage. Just get it repaired, it's a costly repair. However, it's an important repair. Common sense dictates this. I love my Deville and to me it was worth it. Because, my car would not be working if I did not bite the bullet and get the repair.

Good luck:thumbsup:

maeng9981
03-31-12, 05:31 AM
The third gear is one of the normal operation situations. It's a 1:1 gear ratio, you will damage no components driving in third. You had other issues if the transmission is damaged by driving in third. Especially if you are just temporarily doing it for state inspections. Now remember that improper system lubrication/fluid flow/pressure can set a P0741 also.

Dave NYC
03-31-12, 09:10 AM
The third gear is one of the normal operation situations. It's a 1:1 gear ratio, you will damage no components driving in third. You had other issues if the transmission is damaged by driving in third. Especially if you are just temporarily doing it for state inspections. Now remember that improper system lubrication/fluid flow/pressure can set a P0741 also.

Actually, it was not temporarily. I had to clear the OBD to remove the SES light with my handheld OBD scanner and had to drive the car (in third) so the OBD was in a "ready state" to pass inspection. I know you want to believe the answer to a P0741 is to simply ignore it and drive in third for the rest of the time you own a car with that code and I respect that. The bottom line is, once you get a P0741 code it has to get fixed quick to prevent further damage to the tranny. Driving in third will not fix your tranny problem or make the code vanish. Avoiding the code and driving in third will only cause more damage to the tranny. A P0741 has to be addressed as soon as possible. I think common sense dictates this.

Either way, a car with P0741 has to be addressed asap, to prevent a chain reaction of other serious codes to appear.....

You're right, a code could be set for many other reasons. But, if the car has several years on it and a lot of miles and the SES light keeps coming on with the same P0741 code, there is a 99% chance your tranny needs to be looked at and or repaired.

Call me crazy...:bouncy:

RippyPartsDept
03-31-12, 10:53 AM
i think you're right dave ... a P0741 is a problem that needs to get fixed, but if you've also got the P1860 which indicates that it's the TCC solenoid and not an actual pressure/seal issue then you can probably get away with driving in 3rd for a good long while as maeng is talking about

either way i recommend the repair asap but in reality asap can be quite a while depending on the owner

Dave NYC
03-31-12, 11:15 AM
Makes sense Chris. Driving a car with a P0741, weather you drive in third or overdrive, you are still driving a car with a serious code and the more you drive it (weather in third or not) will of course cause more and more damage to the tranny once the pressure/seal, etc; is ruled out. Just driving the car itself with such a serious code is taking a huge risk if you ignore the problem. As you know, I already went through this. So, I know first hand. But, I learned and got it fixed.
:thumbsup:

Ranger
03-31-12, 12:40 PM
I tried the old driving in third trick with a P0741 code and it worked well enough to keep the SES light off so I could pass my yearly inspection. But, sure enough driving in third caused even more damage to the tranny, everything was melted (sensors etc;). So, when a P0741 pops on. Don't try to by pass it with the driving in third trick. Does the manual say ...if you get a P0741 to drive it in third? No. Get your tranny fixed asap to prevent even more damage. Just get it repaired, it's a costly repair. However, it's an important repair. Common sense dictates this. I love my Deville and to me it was worth it. Because, my car would not be working if I did not bite the bullet and get the repair.

Good luck:thumbsup:
If that where the case GM would not have put a 3rd gear in the car. The manual DOES say to drive it in 3rd gear when towing or in hilly operations. Why doesn't that melt sensors and cause damage? I think you had other problems Dave. It wasn't caused by driving in 3rd long enough to pass an emissions test.

Dave NYC
03-31-12, 04:46 PM
Yes, I agree. However....just driving the car...weather in third or overdrive will continue to cause damage to your tranny if you have a P0741 code (the manual DOES NOT say to simply drive in third when a P0741 code pops on). I simply drove in third to pass inspections. But, like I mentioned, just driving the car in general with a P0741 code will continue to burn out the tranny. I think my point was misconstrued. But now, I think you see what I am trying to say. The bottom line is, when a P0741 pops on and the car has some years on it and a lot of miles, the chances are that it is a tranny problem and that it should be looked at asap, before more damage happens, weather you are driving in third or not. I'm sure most would agree with that.
:thumbsup:

sts 03
04-02-12, 05:59 PM
I got the p0741 code but no ses light what does that mean.I erased it haven't checked yet to see if it came back.when I do the brake/rpm test I see the rpm jump.fluid is fine.maybe fluid pressure.but code no ses light?

Ranger
04-02-12, 09:05 PM
When my SES light comes on there is always the P0741 code. Never checked for the code unless the light comes on though. I can't imagine a P0741 with no SES light. That code should trip the light.

sts 03
04-02-12, 09:13 PM
I know its weird but it was there current but no light and like I said when I do the brake test the rpm jump.

Ranger
04-02-12, 09:35 PM
My RPM's jump with the brake test as well, just not as much as it used to. I can even feel the TCC lock up at 41 MPH. Remember, P0741 means that a TC slippage (more than allowed) has been detected, not that the TCC is not engaging. A failure to engage would also have a P1860 code (solenoid failure).

Dave NYC
04-02-12, 09:37 PM
Ranger is correct...a code like that should trip the SES light. But, I have seen stranger things happen.

Mine started when I stupidly ignored a message on my DIC that said Service Transmission Soon. So, I pulled over, turned off the engine and that service message went away. I thought or was hoping it was just a glitch. A few months later, the SES light popped on and my OBD reader came up with a P0741 code and I cleared the OBD and it removed the SES light. Then a week before my inspection came up, so did the SES light and the P0741 code popped on. So, to beat and pass inspection, I reset the OBD, cleared the code and turned off the SES light and I drove it in third for awhile to make sure the OBD was "ready" for inspection. Right after I passed inspection, I started to drive in Overdrive and and BAM! The Code and SES light popped on and then I started to smell a burnt odor. So, I knew I had to get this looked into fast. The next day, I started up the car and put it in Overdrive and the car would not move. The engine was on, it rebbed up. But, the wheels did not spin. So, that was it. Due to ignoring that 'Service Transmission Soon' message caused the entire tranny to crash, burn and melt. Not to mention a bunch of other codes were triggered.

Live and learn.:rolleyes:

So, if I were you, I would really keep my eye on that code.

sts 03
04-02-12, 09:43 PM
Oh ok so if this code stays like this with no ses light would I still fail emissions.

Ranger
04-02-12, 09:47 PM
Ahh, there is the difference (Service Transmission Soon). I get the P0741, but have NEVER seen that message.

----------


Oh ok so if this code stays like this with no ses light would I still fail emissions.
Probably, if it is current, but without the SES light I am not 100% positive.

Dave NYC
04-02-12, 09:48 PM
Ahh, there is the difference (Service Transmission Soon). I get the P0741, but have NEVER seen that message.


Like I've said, I have seen stranger things happen.


Oh ok so if this code stays like this with no ses light would I still fail emissions.

A code like that will make you fail Emissions...depending on the state. That is a pretty serious code. I know that NY state would fail you for a code like that. But, to prevent that code from popping on, clear the OBD and drive in third to prevent that code from popping on. But, make sure the OBD is in a "ready" state before inspection.

sts 03
04-02-12, 10:29 PM
How do I make the odb in the ready state

Ranger
04-02-12, 10:51 PM
YOU don't. It does it when it's ready and has passed all the internal tests.

I believe you have to complete a drive cycle before it goes into the "ready state". That said, I don't think there is any way to tell if it is in the ready state or not.
http://www.obdii.com/drivecycle.html

sts 03
04-02-12, 10:59 PM
Ok,I'll keep a eye on it cause the ses light didn't come on with the code.

Dave NYC
04-02-12, 11:55 PM
How do I make the odb in the ready state

Well, this is how I did it. I purchased a handheld simple OBD II reader, it clears all codes on your OBD, it will remove your SES light and it will tell you when your OBD II reached every cycle, when you see a green light with a checkmark, that means you are good, if you have a yellow light, that means the cycle is not ready and if you have a red light, that means you have a code. If you still have a few things on the OBD II that are not ready, like your Oxygen sensor, etc;. it will blink. This is the perfect tool to point you in the right direction if you have a code, it gives you past and pending codes and it is much easier than having to go to a service station and have them do it.

The one I bought is on the link below. But, you can get this tool for as low as $20. It is also MUCH easier than trying to pull codes by using your dash, as this is a code puller, code remover/reset and a turn SES light off. It's the perfect tool to use so you know when your car is "ready" to take to the inspection center. I use this all the time, it's a great and handy tool.

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3030-Innova-Diagnostic-Vehicles/dp/B000EVYGQY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1333424761&sr=8-10

So, what you might want to do is erase any codes you have, reset the OBD and take the car out on the highway and drive it for about 20 to 40 miles (drive in third to prevent the P0741). You wanna to take the car up to 55 and let it coast down on it's own to 15 without breaking. I have a list of tricks that will put your OBD in a "ready" state. But, just driving it on the highway for 20 to 40 miles should do it. If you have the hand held tool I'm talking about, then you will know exactly if it's ready and if it's not, it will tell you what needs to be ran. IMO, every car owner should have one of these tools. It beats going to a service center that might charge you more than the device itself to clear your codes and to tell you if you are in a "ready" state.

Below is the screen of the tool, when it's in a ready state, none of the symbols will be flashing, if it's not in a ready state, the things that have not been completed in the drive cycle will blink. In NY state, you are allowed to have 1 blinker, more than 1 you fail. That is why this is such a good tool to have. Especially if you want to know when your car is ready for inspection, to clear codes, find codes and to remove the SES light, etc;.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5169S4TWFEL._SS350_.jpg

Below is what it does for emissions in laymen's terms,

Patented Emission Status LEDs
Over 30 states now use an OBD2 based system to check for emissions readiness, making it more important than ever to be aware of the status of your vehicle and to keep it running in top condition. With this in mind, the Innova 3030 has been designed with the ability to read the exact same emissions information as these state-required tests do to see if you will pass the first time around. Built around a simple color-coded system where Green = Pass, Yellow = Potential Problems and Red = Fail, users are able to quickly diagnose potential emission issues with the 3030. Other tool manufacturers charge over $100 for this feature alone and a separate tool has to be purchased, but the 3030 includes this with the price of purchase.

And no, I don't for the people that makes these...LOL

maeng9981
04-03-12, 02:54 AM
P0741 and Service Transmission is a completely different animal. Either P0741 and P1860 will not display Service Transmission (but will illuminate SES light), but gear ratio/fluid pressure/long shift/shift adapt problems(codes) will display not SES light but Service Transmission. Like I said before, P0741 can also be set due to other problems.

Also P0741 is a type B DTC which will turn SES on after two consecutive trip with failed tests.

Dave NYC
04-03-12, 03:50 AM
I think common sense dictates that "Service Transmission" and P0741 are different things.:helpless: However, if you get that message and ignore it, then there is a good chance you will get a P0741 'among other tranny related codes, etc;'. Especially if the car has some years and miles on it.:bonkers:

sts 03
04-06-12, 08:01 PM
ok so the ses light finally came on twice and both times it was on a hilly stretch of highway.it came on both times going up the last hill as soon as I get right at the top of the hill.this road has atleast 5 or 6 hills back to back .

Ranger
04-06-12, 09:57 PM
That's when mine comes on.

sts 03
04-06-12, 10:52 PM
what would cause that if it is only on hilly stretches of road

Ranger
04-06-12, 11:00 PM
I'm just guessing that as the load increases, so does the TC slippage due to the leaking seal. I can't confirm this, but it seems that I don't get the light and code if I downshift to 3rd.

sts 03
04-06-12, 11:27 PM
I'll have to try the third gear thing and see if that works cause I do live in an emissions state.I still don't understand why I had the current code before with no ses light.

----------

is it normal for the tranny to be Hot to the touch after driving.

Ranger
04-06-12, 11:40 PM
Sure. Trans fluid runs about the same as coolant temps.

Dave NYC
04-06-12, 11:46 PM
I'll have to try the third gear thing and see if that works cause I do live in an emissions state.I still don't understand why I had the current code before with no ses light.

Once you clear the code and SES light, driving in third will prevent that code from popping up. But, it sure sounds like you need to have your tranny looked at. Because, what 'might' happen is a chain reaction of other tranny codes popping on. Alas, costing you even more $ in repairs. But, I guess it doesen't matter. Either way, at some point that tranny will have to be pulled apart. Ignoring it and driving in third will not make the problem vanish. But, driving in third will help you prevent the P0741 code to pop on for you to pass inspection. If inspection is months away, try to have your tranny fixed as it 'might' get worse.

Good Luck.....

sts 03
04-06-12, 11:57 PM
even with the light when I do the brake test the rpm still jump

Ranger
04-07-12, 11:53 AM
Correct. That's because the TCC solenoid is still working. You are probably not seeing as much of an RPM jump as you should.

Ghostsoldier
04-21-12, 06:49 PM
Dammit....I'm a new member of The 741 Club, as of about a week or so ago. :ill:

My 2000 Eldo threw up the SES light around that time, but I just found the time to pull the codes. Like some other folks, I got the PO741 without the P1860 code, and the car has started to 'chuggle' a bit when I come to a stoplight or if I stop, idling, for any reason....like an ignition miss, but the tach doesn't drop much to look at it. I'm lucky that my state (Florida) doesn't require emissions tests, but I drive 52 miles round trip everyday to work, and I can't see me doing this in 3rd gear (especially with the price of gas nowadays :bonkers:).

I'm going to try the lock-up test this afternoon to see what happens with the tach; and, since I've had the car (5 years now) and have a little over 200k miles on the odo, it's time I bite the bullet and confess that I have never checked the trans fluid level (yes, I'm an idiot and should know better :suspect:). I've got to drive it a few miles to let it warm up first before I do so, but I was wondering if low fluid would throw this code? I can't see where I need the TCC solinoid if I don't have the P1860.

Other than this, the car still runs fine, and doesn't seem to slip while driving....I have a few other codes, but they are minor, historical and aren't related to the powertrain codes. I'll report back when I've done my checks.

Rob

sts 03
04-21-12, 06:55 PM
P0741 without P0186 is the seals leaking within the case I think, if there isn't a p0186 then its not the tcc selonoid.yes low tranny fluid can set the code.I'm not sure if out would have any thing to ruff idle.

Ranger
04-21-12, 08:47 PM
I get the P0741 occasionally as well. It DOES NOT cause a rough idle or "chuggle". If it where not for the SES light, you would not know there was a problem. Clear it and motor on.

sts 03
04-21-12, 08:53 PM
Yeah to that I get the code here and there and my doesn't chuggle .but check the fluid , they book says drive for 15 minutes then park on level ground go through each gear ending in park then let idle for 2_3 minutes then pull dip stick out wipe off reinsert then check again.

Ghostsoldier
04-21-12, 09:46 PM
I got the "chuggle" symptom comparison from this thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/149834-information-p0741-p1860-1998-a.html

According to this post:

Condition
Some customer may comment on the SES light on and a chuggle or surge. Diagnostics may show excessive TCC slip speed and DTC P0741 will be current code stored.

Cause
Seal damage may allow the TCC apply fluid to leak into the channel plate, causing excessive TCC slippage under certain conditions, eventually causing no TCC apply.

I have noticed a surge now and again, but not bad....this 'chuggle' is the worst I've dealt with so far.



As far as my test, I took a 15 mile drive this evening, and tried the lock-up test at 50, 55 and 60 mph; I kept the speed constant, and bumped the break...nada, nothing. The tach needle never even moved off the 2000 rpm tick. Keeping in mind, though, that I don't have the P1860 code, what does the lack of lock-up (possibly) suggest?

Also, when I checked the tranny fluid, it was at the "cold" level, when it should have been at the "hot full" level at that point of my driving. I put one quart in it, and now it reads in the "hot" zone, but the car is still skipping slightly.

I might add that the only two other P codes thrown earlier was the P0101 (Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Performance ) and the P0420 (Catalyst System Low Efficiency)...I'm not sure (excluding the MAF) that either of these two could cause the chuggle/skip, but maybe they are, and it's just a case of two different issues hitting me at one time.

Ranger...how can I clear the codes? Pull the positive cable on the battery for 10 seconds?

Rob

Ranger
04-21-12, 09:51 PM
what does the lack of lock-up (possibly) suggest?
Simply that the TC is slipping slightly (just like automatic transmissions did before they had TCC's).

Check the DTC sticky. It will tell you how to clear them or have a link that will. Pulling battery power will also do it, but may add a few U codes.

Ghostsoldier
04-21-12, 10:05 PM
Simply that the TC is slipping slightly (just like automatic transmissions did before they had TCC's).



Will this symptom likely clear up after I drive it some more, and the fluid circulates? I've only drove it about 2 miles home, after I added the fluid.

(I'll check the DTC sticky, too...thanks!)

Rob

Ranger
04-21-12, 10:19 PM
No, it will likely get worse over time as the seal leak gets worse. By worse I simply mean that clearing the code may be short lived and it will come back again. Mine stays off for several days when I clear it. The worst that will happen is that you'll run 200-300 higher RPM and you get about 1 MPG less fuel mileage. The alternative is to replace the seal and TC for about $2000. I wouldn't sweat it.

Ghostsoldier
04-21-12, 10:30 PM
Thanks, Ranger....that makes me feel better, and I trust your judgement....you've never steered me wrong before. :thumbsup:

Now, about that MAF sensor...could it be causing my skip, and throw the catalytic code, too?

Can I diagnose that in any way, or is it just a replacement?

Rob

Ranger
04-22-12, 12:53 AM
A bad MAF sensor can cause all sorts of problems. I'm sure the FSM has a test procedure, but if you have a MAF code, I'd just replace it.

sts 03
04-22-12, 09:13 AM
Do you have A fsm ,you can order the disc ones for your laptop for as cheap as 15 bucks its great to have if you work on your own car.I'm reading the fsm now and the first diagnostic aid is to check tranny fluid, tranny may be in Hot mode check tranny fluid lines to radiator they may be pinched plugged or twisted.so yes it is possible your low fluid set the code or you have a plugged line our the seals are leaking.mine only comes on sometimes when I drive down the certain stretch of hilly roads, makes me wonder if a line is blocked on mine

Ghostsoldier
04-22-12, 04:05 PM
When you say the trans is running in "hot" mode, is that a condition that can be caused by the radiator running hot?

I ask because I have a pinhole leak in my radiator (I have an OEM replacement on the way--should be here Monday), and have run the car a little on the hot side a couple of times (never in the red, though--I replace the water every day).

I'll have to check, but I think I've replaced the MAF once (one from O'Reilly's)....

Rob

sts 03
04-22-12, 04:15 PM
I'm not sure I'll have to look in the fsm but it does say something if the tranny is in Hot mode it can set the code, and if your radiator is leaking and car is running Hot I would think that would make your tranny run Hot not 100% sure though.correct tranny fluid fix radiator leak and hopefully you will get lucky.once you correct fluid and fix leak clear the code and start driving.

Ghostsoldier
04-22-12, 04:31 PM
Thanks, sts...I'm going to re-replace the MAF sensor again to see if I can stop the skipping issue, and when I get the radiator changed next week, I'll report back on the TCC code. :)
Rob

sts 03
04-22-12, 04:42 PM
You can check and clear the codes from your dash there is a sticky on how do do this where you part the threads

Ghostsoldier
04-22-12, 08:39 PM
You can check and clear the codes from your dash there is a sticky on how do do this where you part the threads

10-4...I found it! :thumbsup:

Rob

sts 03
04-22-12, 09:40 PM
Keep us posted with the results

Ghostsoldier
04-27-12, 11:26 PM
Well, I replaced the MAF sensor, and it's still miss-firing and skipping...I guess it could be my plugs, although I replaced them 40,000 miles ago, and they were the expensive AC Delco versions; I cleared the PCM codes, and got this one: P1599 - Engine Stall or Near Stall Detected. Beats the hell outta me. :bonkers:

Oh yeah, and I got the P0741 current again, too. :helpless:

Life is wonderful. :banghead:

Rob

sts 03
04-28-12, 11:11 AM
Not sure ever since I had my tranny fluid changed i've only got the code once which was the same day I changed it but haven't got it since.but now sometimes when I hit the gas my car hesitates sometimes.how would my car act of they forgot to tighten the side cover drain plug, cause I had to show them where it was.

Splitz300
06-01-12, 05:34 PM
Just wonderful. Now I've got this damn code.

Early stages, came on just as I parked back from lunch this afternoon.

I haven't had time to check much out, guess I'll crawl under the car tomorrow and poke around. I just can't win with this damn car. 12 months from paying it off and this?

FML!

Ghostsoldier
06-01-12, 06:21 PM
Yeah, I still get the code, too. I clear it, and it usually stays off for a day, then pops back on.

Screw it...I'm not stressing over it any more.

On another note, I think my skipping problem is a fuel injector.

Rob

sts 03
06-01-12, 06:27 PM
Same here I erase it and comes back usually on hilly roads which I have a lot where I live,I just hope the third great trick will work when its time for my emission test.how long do I have to drive in third for.

Ranger
06-01-12, 09:10 PM
Long enough for it to pass the internal readiness tests. Probably a couple of days. There has been some question as to whether or not that works anymore.

sts 03
06-11-12, 11:57 AM
I was thing in the fsm about the p0741 and it looks like maf and tps codes can cause the tc slip

Marco
06-29-12, 02:41 PM
Well, been driving with an expired state inspection from '09 due to P1860 and 0741.
I have a flat brown colored refrigerator magnet that is strategically placed over the ses light otherwise it would drive me nuts.
Has anyone been successful at getting a ready-state condition & passing inspection using the newer code scanners?
The last time I tried to pass inspection, I did not use a scanner.
That resulted in a nearly $50 inspection fee and a letter from TX big brother informing me that since I failed the state inspection, I may be unable to receive my annual registration sticker.
So far a hollow threat, but it would be nice to get this resolved.

Submariner409
06-29-12, 03:17 PM
Has anyone been successful at getting a ready-state condition & passing inspection using the newer code scanners?

You can "clear codes" using your car's built-in code reader/scanner system or an aftermarket unit or even the GM Tech-II..... BUT if the fault is Current it will come right back as soon as you put the stick in D.

If the fault is/was intermittent it would self-clear the code in 30 or 40 successful start-run cycles during which the fault did not set again, and the DIC message would disappear as well as the SES.

If you always have the two trouble codes the only "fix" is to repair the TCC itself (torque converter) and/or the activation solenoid. There's a tutorial over in Cadillac Tech Tips - read through the many pages of threads - but you need time, tools, patience, and a sense of microsurgery procedures in an awkward working space.

I don't know about your particular car/model, but some of these years/systems will clear the codes if you drive in 3, not D.

DEER_HUNTER1992
07-06-12, 06:59 PM
hi, i have a vehicle that is having the same code, local garage said it was the tcc solenoid and so i replaced the tcc solenoid, trans filter, gasket and all new fluid. $300.00 i spent at the local garage and did not fix the issues. still having problems at freeway speeds. o/d off light keeps flashing but when you turn the vehicle off and back on it resets the computer but once you get back to around 50mph it will start flashing again, got referred to a trans shop and they are familiar with the code, said that they had 2 other vehicles in there right now with the same problem and it was the torque converter itself. they said if the trans pan was clean then its the torque converter it self or if the pan is dirty then you have to replace or rebuild the trans. my pan was clean, so replaced the torque converter at local garage which was $200.00-part from advance or autozone and $313.50-labor to put in. a whole lot better than $900.00 from trans shop. now my vehicle runs like new, no more problems. tip...... always get work done at local garages, dealers and specialty shops charge out the ass. hope this helps out....

sts 03
07-06-12, 07:58 PM
$314 for labor is pretty good.but I think you are supposed to change some seals/gaskets in the case (I think ) and also change torque converter.this was a tsb i'm pretty sure of.this is if you have p0741 by its self.there is also a list of things to check first that can set the code like fluid level, certain maf and tps codes , if tranny is in Hot mode, pinch lines,etc....

2008DTS
05-11-13, 11:14 AM
Hi,
2002 Deville Base 130,000 miles. Got the SES light as well! I have been reading through all 16 pages and there does not seem to be anything recent to solve the problem. Here is my situation:
At 100,000 miles got the SES code p0741,no other codes, my mechanic said the same, replace transmission TCC slipping. I said it was not slipping or chugging. He said that according to his code reader it was slipping a few milliseconds and I probably would not notice anything. We changed the fluid and both filters, added Lucas SES reset and no further problems.
At 125,000 SES light again P0741, no other codes. Read more on this forum and did the test when going 50 mph and touched the brakes, test was good. Also found some speed RPM tables here and they were spot on! I'm getting 27 MPG at 65 MPH on a relatively flat highway.
This time went to Cadillac and had the system flushed. Got it back removed some fluid and added Lucas again, reset light all was fine. This was last November 2012. All has been fine since.
At 130,000, got the SES light again, no other P codes. Does anyone think there is a correlation with the warmer weather? One of the threads mentioned that the P0741 may come on if the fluid was too hot. No overheating problems or coolant usage.
As I said, the car continues to run well and shift fine, with RPM's in line or slightly less than the published table. I have checked the fluid level hot (as described in owners manual), no burnt odor or discoloration, only 5000 mile since replaced.

I also saw in a thread where there was a change made in later Deville's, DTS models that reprogramed the PCM delay a few milliseconds longer. This prevents the SES does not throw the P0741 code. I also have a 2008 DTS and the transmission looks the same, even has a dipstick. (most cars today have no dipstick, I have just seen a plug to check the level.) Any thoughts on flashing the PCM (If I knew where it was)?

Does anyone have any suggestions, I hate to overhaul the transmission when not needed.

Thanks again,

Dave NYC
05-11-13, 01:26 PM
That's upsetting. You're going to need to have the tranny opened up. Sadly weather is not the cause of this. :(

Submariner409
05-11-13, 02:54 PM
P 0741 alone is usually an indication of a sticky or slowly failing TCC - Torque Converter Clutch - the thingy that removes the last 300 or so of slip between the stator and rotor. Gas mileage change = emissions fault.

Accompanied by P 1860 it says the TCC activator solenoid is toast.

You can live with either one in a non-emissions state - the solenoid can be done with microsurgery through the top of a slightly separated transmission/engine joint. A permanent P 0741 is the converter viscous clutch itself and requires partial engine removal and complete transmission removal.

Diagrams of these sensors and switches in my albums.

2008DTS
05-11-13, 04:55 PM
Hi,
Thank you both for the prompt responses. I got the code again a day after clearing. In addition the is only (1) other code, a IPM B0429. I think it has to do with the rear HVAC control or something as found on the forum. No big deal for me.
I was hoping to hear from someone that had been able to clear the code without a transmission overhaul.
Submariner, thanks for your offer to search your albums. I'm new, I will try to locate them as a start.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks,

Submariner409
05-11-13, 05:25 PM
Click my username, open the profile. Left column, 2 albums down a bit. 118 pictures and diagrams of Northstar stuff.

or ............ up ^^^^ in the Community tab, Albums. The red Seville.

You might want to go way up into the top black bar and study the entire Cadillac Technical Archive. Very necessary info for every Northstar driver, most of it from a GM Powertrain engineer.

maeng9981
05-12-13, 05:28 AM
TCC stuck off situation can be intermittent. Telling by others' experience, it seems to gradually get worse though once it happens.

2008DTS
05-12-13, 09:11 AM
Thanks for the response. Yes, I understand it can be intermittent that's why I questioned the outside temperature. The situation with me is slightly different. My TCC has never malfunctioned, or failed to go into OD. All of the failure test suggested in these threads were successfully completed. I wish I could find a reliable transmission shop in Southwestern Pennsylvania to just repair the seal that is causing the light.
The only alternatives I have been given were:
Rebuild from Cottman $3500.
Cadillac Dealer suggested not to just repair the problem, but to install an overhauled unit, $4000.


QUOTE=maeng9981;3310955]TCC stuck off situation can be intermittent. Telling by others' experience, it seems to gradually get worse though once it happens.[/QUOTE]

Submariner409
05-12-13, 10:31 AM
FWIW, TCC is NOT "overdrive". The transmission uses 4 gears - and 3rd is the 1.00:1 direct drive gear - 4th is 0.68:1 = overdrive. TCC is an emissions control that removes most of the last 300 or so rpm of slip between the stator and rotor - a gas mileage savings, therefore emissions-related. That's why a TCC fault will fail an emissions inspection.

The "drop in a rebuilt GM unit" seems to be the preferred fix among Cadillac dealers in the DC area also. Monster Transmission in Florida will totally rebuild a tight 4T80E with locking converter for $2700, shipped. You install it or pay labor, core goes back.

Ranger
05-12-13, 11:50 AM
I was hoping to hear from someone that had been able to clear the code without a transmission overhaul.
Clearing the code is easy (I do it almost every drive). Keeping is off is not easy or cheap.



TCC stuck off situation can be intermittent. Telling by others' experience, it seems to gradually get worse though once it happens.
:yup: It WILL become more frequent.



Thanks for the response. Yes, I understand it can be intermittent that's why I questioned the outside temperature. The situation with me is slightly different. My TCC has never malfunctioned, or failed to go into OD. All of the failure test suggested in these threads were successfully completed. I wish I could find a reliable transmission shop in Southwestern Pennsylvania to just repair the seal that is causing the light.
The only alternatives I have been given were:
Rebuild from Cottman $3500.
Cadillac Dealer suggested not to just repair the problem, but to install an overhauled unit, $4000.
Probably not to far out of line. Most of it is labor. When the seal is replaced it is recommended that the TC also be replaced. How important that is, I don't know.

d_snypa
09-05-13, 02:08 PM
I got a stuck TCC code took it to the dealership they quoted me $4600. Took to another place without charging me they told me it may just be low on fluid. Checked the fluid it was low. Brought it up to level. TCC code gone. Saved $4584. Passes road RPM test as well.

2008DTS
09-05-13, 03:00 PM
I got a stuck TCC code took it to the dealership they quoted me $4600. Took to another place without charging me they told me it may just be low on fluid. Checked the fluid it was low. Brought it up to level. TCC code gone. Saved $4584. Passes road RPM test as well.

I had my fluid flushed at the Cadillac dealer then removed some of the fluid and added a bottle of Lucas. It has been out now for 1400 miles and counting.code was not present when I had the emissions test done and now I am good to go till August 2014!
I have been told that any type if additive in a bottle that is meant to swell up the worn seals won't work on the TCC since the seal is made of silicone.

Dave NYC
09-05-13, 05:53 PM
Bravo:cool:

Ranger
09-05-13, 09:29 PM
I got a stuck TCC code took it to the dealership they quoted me $4600. Took to another place without charging me they told me it may just be low on fluid. Checked the fluid it was low. Brought it up to level. TCC code gone. Saved $4584. Passes road RPM test as well.
Be patient. It WILL return. You can clear the code and turn off the SES light, but rest assured, it will become more frequent. The good news is unless you have to pass an emissions test, you can ignore it.

P.S.
The code is caused by a leaky internal seal causing a very slight TC slippage, NOT by being low on trans fluid.