I've got a couple ideas and need to know what everybody thinks

I would like to make this forum THE place to come for Cadillac info, not just the best place to come to BS about Cadillacs. I was rather disturbed by a comment in a recent thread that stated that CaddyInfo.com was the place to go for information on Cadillacs. While the site (Caddyinfo) is a good one, there's no reason why ours can't be as good or better, if we want it to be.
I think the first step needs to be identifying what kind of talent we have on board so far, followed by a plan to take advantage of that talent.
One big problem I see here is that when somebody poses a technical question, it ignites a debate. Unfortunately, this has little benefit for the person asking the question, and only serves to discourage people from asking questions. Another problem is that the person asking the question has no idea whether the person answering them actually has any REAL background or expertice on the subject or not.
What I would like to suggest is something similar to Home Depot. They claim to have an "edge" on their competition because the people they have in each of their departments are "experts" in those fields. Like the people in the tile department have extensive experience with tile, and the same for all their departments. I'm thinking we can do that here with our forums.
I'm thinking that each forum should have an "expert" on that particular topic and that we should also post a little bio at the top of each forum showing members why this person is (or should be) considered an expert. I think this would go a long way with increasing our forum's credibility, and might allow members to more easily direct questions to the people that can give them the most accurate answers. This might also limit the endless debates that always seem to pop up. And I'm thinking that this technical person or "expert" doesn't HAVE to also be the moderator for that forum. It's obvious that some of us are more internet forum savy than others. We can have a moderator for the site-specific things like managing the threads, AND have a technical person just to help on a technical basis. Or maybe one person can do both?
Another point I wanted to make was that I think we should have an "Electrical" forum that deals with electrical issues, and ECM/PCM issues like programming etc.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

So im assuming you intend to be the "expert" in all the forums. :D

Actually its not a bad idea, but finding "experts" may be difficult. Plus defining "experts" would not be easy either. To use you as an example(sorry), you have a load of knowledge on alot of subjects, but i think sometimes you draw the wrong conclusions imho. The reason we have debates is that most topics are not black and white. It would be hard to put one person in charge of handing out the right answer in a given forum. In other forums i have participated in, the people with the good advice rise to the top over time, the regular members start to trust certain people more than others. To me it would be hard to put someone in that place and say "hey everybody, trust this guy"

In time, there will be technicians that work on cadillacs every day, just like cadillac dan on GMF.

I agree with brett, it would be too hard to give the responsibilty to one guy, since 1) it is the internet, and unless you're there, you cant really get a good diagnosis on the problem 2) There would be a lot of speculation if a bad diagnosis was made.

I agree that "over time" the regular members will learn who knows what. The problem is a vast majority of the questions asked here are by new people, and when they ask a question and end up with several vaying responces, they're left with the feeling that asking the question didn't get them anywhere.
The point was to try to get as many "truely" knowledgable people together and use them as "key" information points. Without starting another debate here, I just wanted to know if anyone could think of a way to provide a more adequate process by which members could get answers to their questions.

Only think I can think of, is to have a problem forum for northstar and 4.9 owners, not just the info/technical section.

I like the idea of having technical "experts" for particular areas. One way I can think of to weed out the "legend in his own mind" expert is to set up a rating system. There is already a system in place to rate threads. Can it be adapted to allow the members to rate the "experts"? If so, it would be of great benefit to the new member. Further, it would be even better if the experts could be rated in different fields: engine mechanical, engine electrical, trans, suspension, etc. Come to think of it the fields would pretty closely mirror those in a service manual.

I agree with the statement that a lot of threads diverge into off-topic debate and arguing - technical and otherwise. I think it should be left to the moderator to reel in the debate or perhaps branch the debate into another thread. Unfortunately, it often seems to be the moderators in the thick of the arguing.

It may also be a good idea to have some sort of indicator for how frequently the tech expert is on the board. Personally, I feel comfortable voluteering to be a tech contact, but I don't get a chance to be here every day - sometimes I can only stop in once or twice in a week. It would be extremely frustrating to ask someone for help when the Cad is dead & not get a response for 4 days.

A database of people who own factory service manuals would also be a good thing to have (Haynes, Motor and Chilton only go so far). And while having a factory service manual doesn't necessarily mean you know anything about troubleshooting or fixing stuff, it's still handy to know who might be able to look something up for you.

Actually, a lot of the suggestions I have could be incorporated into a structured bio. A section of the bio for "Repairs I have done/Repairs I helped a buddy with/Repairs my buddy did while I fetched tools, beer & parts" would also give people a frame of reference for trusting the "expert".

Maybe those who want to volunteer to be the experts should submit their bios for review & let the members vote.

No system is perfect & any system that is put in place will need tweaking as things evolve, but I think this should go ahead.

rating system is an interesting idea

Rather than pick the post apart and comment on each point, I'll just say, a lot of good input there Eric.
Thanks.
So you know I gotta ask, what's YOUR background?

Ratings degenerate into popularity contests. All too often a technical expert is not well-liked.

The best solution to quelling debates where they don't belong is more heavy-handed moderation. Any topic that starts as a problem looking to be solved should be tightly moderated to keep it clean. Delete or move off-topic posts, period. THAT adds value to a forum.

BS is great and it attracts its own interesting flies. But too many forums suffer from an overload of off-topic BS that buries useful content and drives away all but the dedicated time-waster.

IMHO the point of moderation is to keep {general BS} separate from {subject-oriented debate and prognostication} separate from {specific question-and-answer}.

.Jinx

If that is to be the case.....And it's not a bad idea, There'll have to be some changes made behind the scenes between the moderator staff and the admin! As it stands now Jinx...What you propose is impossible!

I do think that the moderators ( Myself included ) Should be a little more agressive about stopping off topic nonsense and RIDICULOUS never ending debates and moving off topic stuff to general discussion areas. The general discussion area " Chit-Chat " should be kind of a no holds barred area with less restriction as to subject matter....

Originally posted by Jinx
Ratings degenerate into popularity contests. All too often a technical expert is not well-liked.

I figured someone would mention this when I typed my post. Simply put, while there are some e-buddies here, I don't think anybody here is so "us vs. them" cliquey to seriously up-rate or down-rate anybody. I'd like to think that MOST of the members here are more mature...

I agree with the statement that a lot of threads diverge into off-topic debate and arguing - technical and otherwise. I think it should be left to the moderator to reel in the debate or perhaps branch the debate into another thread. Unfortunately, it often seems to be the moderators in the thick of the arguing.The best solution to quelling debates where they don't belong is more heavy-handed moderation. Any topic that starts as a problem looking to be solved should be tightly moderated to keep it clean. Delete or move off-topic posts, period. THAT adds value to a forum.

BS is great and it attracts its own interesting flies. But too many forums suffer from an overload of off-topic BS that buries useful content and drives away all but the dedicated time-waster.

IMHO the point of moderation is to keep {general BS} separate from {subject-oriented debate and prognostication} separate from {specific question-and-answer}.If that is to be the case.....And it's not a bad idea, There'll have to be some changes made behind the scenes between the moderator staff and the admin! As it stands now Jinx...What you propose is impossible!

I do think that the moderators ( Myself included ) Should be a little more agressive about stopping off topic nonsense and RIDICULOUS never ending debates and moving off topic stuff to general discussion areas. The general discussion area " Chit-Chat " should be kind of a no holds barred area with less restriction as to subject matter....
To accomplish this, first we need to define the "seriousness" of each Forum or Section - for example, the Forums in the "General Discussion" Section would fit into the "General BS" category where *almost* anything goes (within the guidelines of the User Agreement). The "Vehicle Discussion" section would be in the "subject-oriented debate and prognostication" category and of course the Forums in the Technical Section would be "serious and specific questions and answers". There would need to be some changes to the arrangement of Forums in each section, and maybe some additions such as a seperate "Lounge" for total BS so the "Introduce Yourself" Forum could be a little more serious (so the noobs are not too intimidated to make that first post) and an "Electrical" Tech section.

Next, there needs to be 2 or 3 active Administrators or Supermoderators who can (and will) watch over the entire Board and move, close, delete, or simply "guide" a Thread gone bad before it gets out of hand.

I think Katshot's ideas for experts in each Tech section is good but others have pointed out the difficulties in nailing down the credentials of these "gurus". I think this is something we'll need to grow into over time but certainly some sort of listing of one's qualifications for those who dispense technical advice would be reasonable.

It seems as though most agree that the "General Discussion" area(s) should be relatively free of restriction as far as topic and even content. And it also seems that most agree that new members should enter into a more welcome and professional area. The problem is that if you look at the post counts, with the exception of the "Seville/Eldo" forum, the two "General" areas are where the vast majority of members post. And they tend to post their questions there too. Unfortunately, that tends to "anchor" debates/arguements in the "General" areas which is where everybody seems to think it's ok to have them. So how is anything going to change?

Originally posted by Katshot
It seems as though most agree that the "General Discussion" area(s) should be relatively free of restriction as far as topic and even content. And it also seems that most agree that new members should enter into a more welcome and professional area. The problem is that if you look at the post counts, with the exception of the "Seville/Eldo" forum, the two "General" areas are where the vast majority of members post. And they tend to post their questions there too. Unfortunately, that tends to "anchor" debates/arguements in the "General" areas which is where everybody seems to think it's ok to have them. So how is anything going to change? With Administrators/Supermoderators working both behind the scenes and in the open to edit, move, close, or delete posts and/or threads that do not follow the direction we want to go in.

In Classifieds, people post "incorrectly" frequently - I just edit or move them to comply with the rules - usually behind the scenes so it's not obvious (I bet I've edited over 80% of those posts). As Administrators/Moderators we don't need to get adversarial as we perform our duties - just do what needs to be done with as little disruption as possible. Part of the issue is everyone seems to be waiting for someone else to take the bull by the horns and Moderate more aggressively, and when a post/thread needs Moderation we make it obvious. Just do it quietly. People will get the message. If it's in the wrong Forum - move it. If it breaks the rules of the User Agreement - delete it. If it's a Tech topic and bs crops up - edit out the bs and remind the group of the posting rules in the "serious" sections.

We need 2 or 3 people who understand the balance we're looking for at CadillacForums to use the Admin functions of the Board to keep us on track. That's why they need to be Administrator or Supermoderator level - so they can perform all functions in all Sections and Forums. The function of these people is not necessarily to have the highest post count, or even to be experts and lead the discussions in a given Section or Forum (but of course they can do this as well), but to read all posts and use the Admin tools as needed.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea of randomly editing posted text. Sounds an aweful lot like you feel like you should contol everything that's said here. I know if I happen to notice that part of my post is missing, I'd be pissed. I little too Draconian for me dude.

Originally posted by Katshot
I'm not sure I agree with the idea of randomly editing posted text. Sounds an aweful lot like you feel like you should contol everything that's said here. I know if I happen to notice that part of my post is missing, I'd be pissed. I little too Draconian for me dude. Randomly edited? Who said anything about that? It seems clear to me that there needs to be more aggressive Moderating here - both the Admin Team and the general membership have come to this conclusion. And who said anything about me "controlling everything that is said here"? I don't control anything. Perhaps the toughest job will be finding the right people to strike the balance we're looking for here. I'm not saying that it's me or that it's not me - that will be a decision for the Administrator. On the other hand, yes, if you, even you Katshot, post bs in a Tech thread or ramble on endlessly in a semi-serious discussion you should expect to have it edited out and if it pisses you off - get over it. People will still be able to post anything they like (within the guidelines of the User Agreement) in the Lounge/Chitchat areas and in the General Discussion areas there will be adequate leeway as well. These General Discussion areas should be semi-serious and the Tech areas very serious and someone needs to make sure they stay that way. Nobody is suggesting random or heayhanded editing of postings that are not obviously contrary to the central goal here - to promote the exchange of knowledge, ideas, and experiences relating to Cadillacs.

The question is not "should there be more aggressive Moderating", it's who should do it and how should it be done to greatest effect with the least disruption.

You wrote:It seems as though most agree that the "General Discussion" area(s) should be relatively free of restriction as far as topic and even content. And it also seems that most agree that new members should enter into a more welcome and professional area. The problem is that if you look at the post counts, with the exception of the "Seville/Eldo" forum, the two "General" areas are where the vast majority of members post. And they tend to post their questions there too. Unfortunately, that tends to "anchor" debates/arguements in the "General" areas which is where everybody seems to think it's ok to have them. So how is anything going to change?Was your closing question serious or just gratuitous? For things to change, well, someone has to change them.

Okay. I'm taking notes here. I'm going to have to make some very quick changes right now - today - because I don't get enough time on here and I probably wont until August.

Regarding deleting posts and text within posts.. Threads should be split rather than deleted. I think that would make everyone happy. I'm going to setup a forum, right now, in the Admin area - for topics under review. So topics don't need to be deleted - they need to be reviewed first - and if the team feels it should not be placed back into the general public, it'll remain in the topics under review section so that we can refer to it later on...

There are two people here that are constantly vocal about how this place should be and how it should improve. That would be Katshot and the Sandman. I have no idea whether or not you two get along because nobody ever tells me anything. But, in about 10 minutes, you'll both be Super Moderators. There will be more administrators, super moderators and moderators in the future - but it has to start somewhere - and now. And I don't have time to be ultra-picky and start voting and what not.. I have very little time and I need help here...

I'm going to seperate out the Introduce Yourself forum and the Lounge.. I'm going to add an Electrical Tech section - somebody contact me to moderate it right away.

I'll be back to discuss the "Experts" or "Gurus" system as soon as I'm finished.. We'll figure out a way for this to work as levels. Expert Level 1, 2, 3, Guru, etc...

Any help I can provide I will.

I don't have a lot to say about this right now except....I think it's a BAD idea! And, If I was a so-called supermoderator....I'd be VERY careful about just going into a guys post and editing content! That will cause problems....The only thing I've ever edited in somebody elses post were spelling errors that made it hard to read, Otherwise I make a point of leaving them alone.

I agree, messing around with peoples posts isnt a good idea, you can offend people and possibly delete some very valuable information.

And even though I am not the most technically advanced person on the board, I think I spend enough time on the board to be a super moderator, moreso just so I can move posts around. I have thought about saying something to the moderator, but I didnt really want to bother them.

I think from this point on, content editing should be discussed beforehand. This certainly is something generally frowned-upon on message boards. However, I can understand some situations where it would be justifiable..

We all have good intentions here and want to do what's right for the community...

Okay. I've finished everything I planned on doing today.. Now...

I'm going to start a seperate topic JUST for discussion about this new Experts and Gurus idea.. This topic has discussed a few different things and I'd like to create a new one focused solely on this new idea... I will move this thread to the "Suggestions" area - and start a new Expert topic right here...

Originally posted by kcnewell
I don't have a lot to say about this right now except....I think it's a BAD idea! And, If I was a so-called supermoderator....I'd be VERY careful about just going into a guys post and editing content! That will cause problems....The only thing I've ever edited in somebody elses post were spelling errors that made it hard to read, Otherwise I make a point of leaving them alone. Well, I don't think I'd wanna be the first one to edit one of your posts :madtalkin . But seriously, why are so many people assuming there will be rampant and inappropriate editing going on. I seriously doubt that will be necessary. Mostly, it's just intended to show the members that there is actually someone in charge keeping things from getting out of hand. And since we never delete content here, just store it away out of sight, it's always open for discussion anyway - it's just as easy to edit content back in as it is to take it out.

Heck, the stir from this and the other changes Sal has made has really increased the activity around here. Can't we just begin with the assumption that these changes are for the better and see what develops? :cheers: :grouphug: :cheers: :grouphug: :cheers: :grouphug: :cheers: :grouphug: :cheers:

Sorry Sandman but the statements you made about deleting and editing at will made me a bit uncomfortable. I don't feel that a moderator should sensor posts just because he personally thinks he should. Damn man, are you in government? You sure sound like one of those guys.
Obviously Sal doesn't have the time to tend to everyone's gripes here and has seen fit to create "supermoderators". What that will entail is unclear at this point to me but since Sal trusts me to handle it, I'll try to help him out. Something tells me that I'm included in this to balance you out though.
BTW, the comment at the end of my post was meant for you to answer. If the majority of questions are asked in the "general" areas, what good is tightening up the other areas going to do?

I get this funny feeling that Katshot and the Sandman don't get along. It's kinda hard to say for sure for some reason. Nonetheless - it seems you two see things from opposite sides of the spectrum. That's okay. Maybe this will be a way to cover both sides of all stories.

Regardless, you are both on the same team. I'm sure the two of you will do everything in your power to help this place develop into all it can be. You seem to be the most vocal out of everyone. That's the way I'm seeing it in the little time I'm here.. That being what appears to be the case, I think giving you both a little more ability to make decisions here will turn out to be a good move. I guess we'll have to see what happens...

Originally posted by Katshot
Sorry Sandman but the statements you made about deleting and editing at will made me a bit uncomfortable. I don't feel that a moderator should sensor posts just because he personally thinks he should. Damn man, are you in government? You sure sound like one of those guys.Ah, one of my favorite oxymoronic statements: "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help". Your comments are somewhat inaccurate and misleading since no Moderator or Supermoderator can delete posts, merely move them out of sight. And any Moderator can edit posts "at will", even those of a Moderator or Administrator, in the Forums they Moderate. A Supermoderator is just able to Moderate all Forums. The main benefit is that it's much easier to move/split threads around all over the Board. Obviously Sal doesn't have the time to tend to everyone's gripes here and has seen fit to create "supermoderators". What that will entail is unclear at this point to me but since Sal trusts me to handle it, I'll try to help him out. Something tells me that I'm included in this to balance you out though.Supermoderators are just Moderators in all Forums - makes it easier for one person to organize postings throughout the site. It does not confer any additional "editing power" or authority. BTW, the comment at the end of my post was meant for you to answer. If the majority of questions are asked in the "general" areas, what good is tightening up the other areas going to do?I believe the answer to that, if there is one, is in having the Admin/Mod/Supermod organize the posts into more appropriate sections. The major problem we have is organizational. Once properly organized, I don't believe we have a significant "content" problem nor do I believe we have different goals here.

Sandman,
My comments were "somewhat inaccurate and misleading"? Maybe I missed something here but in one of your posts you DID mention deleting. So my comment was merely drawn from YOUR statement.
If this is the kind accuracy we can expect from our "SUPERMODERATOR", you're just proving my (and others) concerns to be quite valid.

Originally posted by Katshot
Sandman,
My comments were "somewhat inaccurate and misleading"? Maybe I missed something here but in one of your posts you DID mention deleting. So my comment was merely drawn from YOUR statement.
If this is the kind accuracy we can expect from our "SUPERMODERATOR", you're just proving my (and others) concerns to be quite valid. Yeah, well, the general membership did not know, as you well do, that as Moderators we *cannot* delete any content, merely move it out of sight for Administration to ponder. So too is this latest response of yours misleading. I was merely following accepted Board procedure by calling this deleting - thats how Sal handles it. Since this has been discussed behind the scenes by the Admin Team you should know this. Heck, you started this *public* thread when private venues exist for Moderators, you asked the questions - didn't you expect responses??

Perhaps you need to seek out the advice of a professional for some of your "issues". Why are you feeling threatened? I'm from the Government and I'm here to help :D .

I understand the emotional response over the sanctity of someone's post, but the Sandman is right. Gentle editing is the right approach.

Drop the paranoia about other people changing what you say. It's okay to feel a little uncomfortable, but you need to get past it. Focus on improving the value to others. This is a community. Contribute to the community. You're posting thoughts off the cuff here, you're not authoring an SAE paper. CadillacForums.com is not all about you.

Edited content is inherently more valuable than unedited content. It makes everybody look better. This idea that unexpurgated discussion is the true ideal for every purpose is nuts.

Yes, editing puts you at the whim of the editor, and if you've got a bad editor you've got a problem, but how is giving one reasonable person -- who's monitored by the community and the administration and exists to serve them -- the power to manage the information resource our typing creates here inherently worse than giving every unknown shmuck the power to obfuscate and obliterate through ignorance or manipulation? Weak moderation turns forums into mush.

Turn data into information. Everything in moderation.

.Jinx
Give edits a chance.

Sorry Jinx, You're way off base here.....Who is to judge what is worth saying to the community and what is not? And what right does ANYONE have to edit someone elses opinion? At what point does it stop being a public forum and start being just a string of opinions edited by some clown that thinks he's better qualified to understand and state your opinion than you?


If it's a public forum it is going to have useful and useless information in it. That's the nature of the beast.....That's the way things are and the way they should be. Do you know what I'm thinking about a particular subject? Because I CERTAINLY don't know what you're thinking at any given moment! That is why you can't have an individual going around changing what people say into what HE thinks they meant to say....or should have said!

I think that for the good of the community - and to satisfy the masses - we should not edit posts from this point on. I don't think the Sandman really did any major editing anyway. Just spelling and stuff like that. He fixed grammer and spelling at times.. Regardless, if it's something that makes so many people uncomfortable - or even just a few VERY uncomfortable - I think it would be a good idea to stop...

You're way off base. Distinguish between careful moderation and rampant hacking.

Who is to judge what is worth saying to the community and what is not? The moderator. It's his job.

And what right does ANYONE have to edit someone elses opinion? Opinion, or post? Everything you submit here belongs not to you but to the owner of the forum. So the owner of the forum has the right to do what he pleases with it -- including appointing someone to separate wheat from chaff.

At what point does it stop being a public forum and start being just a string of opinions edited by some clown that thinks he's better qualified to understand and state your opinion than you? A point way beyond reasonable editing. And way way beyond the tip of the thin entering wedge or the top of the slippery slope.

If it's a public forum it is going to have useful and useless information in it. That's the nature of the beast... It doesn't have to be. At least the signal to noise ratio could be improved, which tends to worsen with volume.

That's the way things are and the way they should be. Sez you.

Do you know what I'm thinking about a particular subject? After I read your post, I should, provided you have decent communication skills. And if you don't, you shouldn't be spewing unedited crap all over the rest of us.

That is why you can't have an individual going around changing what people say into what HE thinks they meant to say....or should have said! Well duh, but that's not what a good editor does. In this context, moderator-as-editor should move topics and nuke material that hinders communication. What is that? You'll know it when you see it.

I would think that Sal would be wiser than to make some clown moderator. You're a moderator, aren't you?

.Jinx

You'd make a GREAT socialist!

You jump from adding value by grooming a raw data stream to socialism? What is your problem?

That was uncalled for.

I think KC was just trying to be friendly, and funny as usual. I kinda like things the way they were. I am fairly new to the internet at home, so I'm not that experienced on Forums, but I don't know if I like the idea of "supermoderators", I might feel like my opinion may not be as "qualified" as a Supermoderators. I like to think that everyone that knows something of relevance, or a comment, can post a thread, and that their comment is equal. Myself, I want to learn more and make some internet buddies as well (and I think I have). I think when Moderators can move topics to areas of relevance, it is a good thing. I posed a recent question about "oils", and I wouldn't know where to put it except in the General Chit Chat area. We cannot (but try) have an area for everything to be specifically posted because there are too many undiscussed topics, and too many other areas that may not have been discussed yet. I am checking out some other forums now, and I like ours!

Super Moderators don't have any extra priveledges than Moderators other than the fact that they can act in any forum - not just appointed forums. Many of us are just not understanding what a Super Moderator is...

Things haven't changed. There was no "the way they were" - even when there were Super Moderators... So now I'll spend the hours I normally sleep - HERE (note the time).

Super Moderators don't have any extra priveledges than Moderators other than the fact that they can act in any forum - not just appointed forums. Many of us are just not understanding what a Super Moderator is...

Things haven't changed. There was no "the way they were" - even when there were Super Moderators... So now I'll spend the hours I normally sleep - HERE (note the time).

I say we have a section on the latest non model specific Caddy news...

I say we have a section on the latest non model specific Caddy news...Isn't the current "General Cadillac Non-Model Specific Discussion (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21)" Forum the place to post such news? Unless you have a source for a large amount of new information I'm not sure it would be worth opening a new Forum.

Maybe....Nah! Never mind, It was not nice!

upon review, I withdraw my suggestion