: New nitrous controller - installed



wydopnthrtl
03-18-07, 07:51 AM
Hey Guys,

I installed a racetested prototype nitrous contoller yesterday. Thier maximizer contoller (which I bought for my Lightning) is really much more than a street car needs. I told racetested that many of us out here just don't want to pay that much money to ramp up. So they are looking at a simple version that will serve the street car guys w/o costing an arm and a leg. (Under $200)

Also, I replaced the nitrous supply line from the trunk to the engine bay with a kevlar line. It's really cool because you get the strength of braided but it's also smaller. (Which is easier to snake through the car) It also disipates heat much better and requires NO PURGE! That alone saves money for the kit and doesn't waste nitrous. Since it's black and thier solinoids are black and grey.. it makes for some sneaky nitrous. Even when the hood is open you gotta look pretty hard to see it.

I put my activation switch above the drivers left foot. The location worked out very nice because it's ultra easy to turn the thing off with a swipe of the foot. It's completely hidden too. :bouncy:

SO.. I got it all together and went out ramping up a 35 shot for trials. Even monitored my short term fuel trims along with O2 readings. All looks good and safe. The O2s read 75-100mv higher when shooting every single time. No initial lean out either.

On the 7th of april I'll take this to the track and do some 70hp trials (with better octane fuel for safety) Should put my 01 eldo ETC into the 14.2-14.3 area depending on weather and traction.

Here are some pics from yesterdays install.

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/Controller-a.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/Controller-b.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/Switch-panel-c.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/Switch-panel-a.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/wiring-a.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/wiring-b.JPG

jadcock
03-18-07, 09:23 AM
Nice install. And a beautiful interior color.

Raze
03-18-07, 05:02 PM
sweet job WY!

If you wouldn't mind posting all your parts in the build, supplier, cost and, which are better in your experience I think everyone would appreciate it!

I think if we all let each other know how much/where to look to get things it will save everyone else a ton of time, and they may have a cheaper/better alternative. I wish everyone on this forum shared as much as you wydopnthrtl, you make this board remind me more of the XR4Ti boards where people just post the crazy things they do instead of timidly asking and having the first 10 responders shoot the person down and watch things never get tried.

Keep up the good work!

01STS
03-18-07, 06:26 PM
Lets see some engine bay shots!!!

AlBundy
03-18-07, 08:21 PM
Your the man! Keep posting as there is interest.

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 04:55 AM
Hey Guys,
Well.. I do this with the eldo mostly because my truck has been down for almost a year and a 1/2 now. But it's getting close to running finally. (11.70s on spray when stock.. high 10s now :thumbsup: )
http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi/

I'm a OEM engineer and have always been very interested in making nearly stock vehicles go quick. And most importantly.. to run reliably w/o problems.


Here are some threads from last fall and tonight I'll post pics and some info when I get home. For now you can visit racetested dot com and see the company that I've been using for all my nitrous needs. (nitrous is so misundestood and therefor scares people. If you know some basics and control it properly.. it's actually quite safe to use on nearly any motor)

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-kill-stories-race-videos/70866-01-eldo-track-results-bone-stock.html?highlight=wydopnthrtl

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/85147-01-eldo-100shot-nitrous-track-results.html?highlight=wydopnthrtl

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/86683-nitrous-f-findings-questions.html?highlight=wydopnthrtl

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 09:42 PM
OK guys here is a overview of what I have done to my otherwise stock 01 ETC Eldorado.

1) http://www.racetested.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=58

2) http://www.racetested.com/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=3
NOTE: Denny (the owner of racetested) is working on a controller that will be priced at $200 or below) I have the maximizer linked above.. and the prototype (pictured in above posts) of this new low cost controller. The maximizer is used in my truck and this new one in the caddy.

3) I have the optional 15lb bottle because it'll last longer and the pressure drop in between runs is less. (Makes your passes more consistant)

4) A NX bottle heater with a racetested pressure controller. (The NX one was not very accurate so I stepped up to the better quality RT version)

5) http://www.racetested.com/product_info.php?cPath=10&products_id=132
14ft racetested kevlar supply line for a 100shot. This eliminates the need for purging which is a short term cost advantage.. as well as a long term one.

6) A 3ft length of the same type of kevlar line for the fuel supply. (pictured below.

7) One range colder plugs gapped 0.005" smaller than stock. (Denso IT20)

8) 93 octane for a 35 shot. 94 octane for a 50 shot. 98 octane for 70 & 100 shots (at the track only)

9) K&N panel filter and a modified air box. (matched the air box opening to the radiator cowl opening. And I drilled a 2" holes in both the top and bottom air box to add another path for air to travel besides the *one* stock hole)

Thats it... besides my size 13 right foot tickling the front bumper on the last yellow. :thumbsup:

3 SECOND RAMP UP VIDEO (http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//Vids/Ramp_3_seconds.wmv)




http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/engine-bay.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/solinoids.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/solinoids-up-close.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/fuel-pull-off.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/holes.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/air-box-opening.JPG


http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/No-nitrous_timing.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi//images/50-shot_timing.JPG



Rich

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 09:45 PM
Here is a info sheet at dragtimes. There is a video of my 13.95 run too!

http://www.dragtimes.com/Cadillac-Eldorado-Timeslip-10711.html

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 09:46 PM
Sorry it cut me off there..?

Anyway, there are three main advantages to the racetested system.

1) Jet location:
Their jets are located in the solinoids vs in the nozzle. Reason being is that nitrous travels M-U-C-H quicker than does fuel. (N at 1000psi and F at 50psi) If the jets are located 1-2mm from the "valve" (aka solinoid) then both fluids travel at the same speed after it. Typical kits have the jet located such that you get a shot of nitrous first then the fuel comes along later. This creates a HUGE lean out for a moment. That means extreme heat and at times intakes can blow up. RT avoids all that basic flawed thinking.

2) Ramping up:
a) RT solinoids are meant to be pulsed. Litterally built to be pulsed! (custom built & pulsed for 20 minutes before being shipped) The NX and NOS solinoids DO NOT DO THAT. Actually they are off the shelf generic solinoids from what I understand.
b) Ramping up is much easier on the rod bearings, piston skirts, and head gaskets. Not to mention all the downstream things like transmission, half shafts, and traction issues. Doesn't it make perfect sense that you should fill the cylinder with the same amount of N/F/A for each given stroke? A fixed hit setup does not do that! Ramping does. Ramping also allows for more than normal shot sizes because of the low rpm protection it offers. (this is why I can shoot a 100shot w/o a problem at all)

3) No purging:
RT does'nt require purging. The supply line from the bottle to the solinoids acts as a reservior. The larger and hotter that reservior the more likely your nitrous will turn to a gas. The RT line is matched to your power level which decreases it's volume and does NOT hold heat like a typical braided one would.

Any question?

Rich

RunningOnEMT
03-19-07, 10:13 PM
i hate to nitpick...but moving the jets would not even out speed ... at all....

it might make changing the jets easier, but not even out speed

and if they told you that, they flat out lied to you

P=AV... pressure = area* velocity

to even out 1000psi to 50 psi you'd need to increase the size of the nozzle by a factor of 20...

that would even out velocity post throtling not moving the location of the jet

sorry to burst a bubble

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 10:23 PM
:thumbsup:
i hate to nitpick...but moving the jets would not even out speed ... at all....

it might make changing the jets easier, but not even out speed

and if they told you that, they flat out lied to you

P=AV... pressure = area* velocity

to even out 1000psi to 50 psi you'd need to increase the size of the nozzle by a factor of 20...

that would even out velocity post throtling not moving the location of the jet

sorry to burst a bubble

Sorry to burst *your* bubble.. but you assumptions are flawed. :thepan:

The jet sizes are matched to fuel and too the nitrous. The pipe sizes are too. Just because I have'nt spelled out every little detail doesn't mean it's not been addressed. :thumbsup: And btw.. the nozzle has nothing to do with it. Take the nozzle off and you'll see the same thing.

Actually in the above video you can see the fuel and nitrous squirt at the exact same moment. (or at least close enough) There is no fuel presure other than whats in the line so it dies off.

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 10:30 PM
moving the jets would not even out speed ... at all....

Just so you guys understand what's happening here..

A typical nitrous kit has two solinoids and two supply lines that are the same size feeding a nozzle with a set of jets in it. You open the solinoids at the same moment and the nitrous (assuming liquid) is at 1000psi. The fuel at 50 psi. The nitrous gets to the metering "jet's that's within the nozzle MUCH quicker because the volumes and opening sizes are exactly the same.

The RT system has **no** pipe length between the solinoid and the metering "jet". And each solinoid is custom made for each type of media flowing through it.
So if both are fired at the same time you get (next to) no difference in speed/timing of the Nitrous and fuel. Well.. technicaly yes there is a small difference.. but it's not enough to matter because of the phase change taking place within the nitrous as it enters atmosphere.

Look in the 3 second ramp up video for yourself. When they fire you can clearly see a squirt of fuel at the same moment as the nitrous starts to flow.

Rich

RunningOnEMT
03-19-07, 10:40 PM
:thumbsup:

Sorry to burst *your* bubble.. but you assumptions are flawed. :thepan:

The jet sizes are matched to fuel and too the nitrous. The pipe sizes are too. Just because I have'nt spelled out every little detail doesn't mean it's not been addressed. :thumbsup: And btw.. the nozzle has nothing to do with it. Take the nozzle off and you'll see the same thing.

Actually in the above video you can see the fuel and nitrous squirt at the exact same moment. (or at least close enough) There is no fuel presure other than whats in the line so it dies off.

hahahaha... call bernoulli and tell him his 200 year old law is flawed

i know the pipes are different sizes, and the jets are... i'm just saying relocating the jets will NOT change the speed of the flow POST JETTING!!!!

just approaching it from an engineering perspective i didn't spend years in school and THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS on education to miss details

i'm not trying to be an ass... but yeah, just making sure you know the details is all.

i can see that your graphs do describe the phenomenon you're describing but a better way to describe it would be reduction of fluid hammering. basically reducing the pipe length between valve and throttling aperature reduces the total volume of fluid nonrestricted between valve and throttling. therefor reducing backflux time on the pressure wave, and equalizing the pressure in the entire segment quicker

same theory behind using a return line fuel system, and the same reason that Gaseous fuel engines have HUGE HUGE HUGE fuel rails, no hammering effect


i'm on your side here man ... just enumerating details

i think its really cool what they've done with the system, just want to make sure that the technical reasons are correct!

wydopnthrtl
03-20-07, 07:04 AM
I too spent thousands and thousands on an engineering education. And Ive been a OEM automotive engineer for over 16 years. 6 of which were as a water pump engineer. Consider it safe to say that I'm familiar with fluid dynamics. I also have some real world experience under my belt as compaired to you being only 25 and having next to none. Because of your age I assume your fresh out of school and now "play with trains". Maybe you ought to recall what you were taught in school and gather all the facts before making sumations.

Now that we have compaired resumes..lets put the attitudes away and get down to reality of shooting nitrous to make safe and reliable power.

Your ****assumption**** is that the nitrous is in a 100% liquid state, and that the orifaces / pipe sizes are of a equal size/volume that would allow different flow rates. Once the liquid nitrous passes the jet. It's NOT in a pure liquid state. Nitrous when released to atmosphere boils and turns into a gaseous state.

Now I'll throw you a bone here.. You do correctly understand pressure. This is the real world however. It's a dynamic & 3 dimensional world and you can't change it. The differences in speed DON'T MATTER because the goal is met. That goal being a smooth a/f curve as well as a smooth power curve. Both of which this system nails down.

Oh and btw: *if* it were an issue? (because of installation pipe lengths over 6") The maximizer has the ability to fire the fuel and nitrous solinoids at differing times. (On the Lightning I delayed it 0.2 second so I could get a small head start to over come the intercooler)


i can see that your graphs do describe the phenomenon you're describing...
You may want to take a look at the subject of the graphs. They have nothing to do with the subject at hand. They are posted as a response to an observation from another thread. (Ignition Timing)

Regards, Rich

RunningOnEMT
03-20-07, 07:51 AM
I too spent thousands and thousands on an engineering education. And Ive been a OEM automotive engineer for over 16 years. 6 of which were as a water pump engineer. Consider it safe to say that I'm familiar with fluid dynamics. I also have some real world experience under my belt as compaired to you being only 25 and having next to none. Because of your age I assume your fresh out of school and now "play with trains". Maybe you ought to recall what you were taught in school and gather all the facts before making sumations.

Now that we have compaired resumes..lets put the attitudes away and get down to reality of shooting nitrous to make safe and reliable power.

Your ****assumption**** is that the nitrous is in a 100% liquid state, and that the orifaces / pipe sizes are of a equal size/volume that would allow different flow rates. Once the liquid nitrous passes the jet. It's NOT in a pure liquid state. Nitrous when released to atmosphere boils and turns into a gaseous state.

Now I'll throw you a bone here.. You do correctly understand pressure. This is the real world however. It's a dynamic & 3 dimensional world and you can't change it. The differences in speed DON'T MATTER because the goal is met. That goal being a smooth a/f curve as well as a smooth power curve. Both of which this system nails down.

Oh and btw: *if* it were an issue? (because of installation pipe lengths over 6") The maximizer has the ability to fire the fuel and nitrous solinoids at differing times. (On the Lightning I delayed it 0.2 second so I could get a small head start to over come the intercooler)


You may want to take a look at the subject of the graphs. They have nothing to do with the subject at hand. They are posted as a response to an observation from another thread. (Ignition Timing)

Regards, Rich

for a man harping about how i make assumptions i love how you ASSUME i'm opeating on pure inexperience, i've been in the HVAC and Compressor design as well as Railcar design field for close to 6 years. I worked my way through college.

But i'd rather not argue, you're a smart man, lets agree that we both made assumptions, i'll freely admit that i'm a scoche less than accurate ... but i'd rather not argue.

now that we have that out of the way...no hard feelings?

stbtt
03-20-07, 09:17 AM
your timing ramp or graph line is just like mine other than you are about 6 to 10 deg more advanced than i am all across the rpm range

wydopnthrtl
03-20-07, 09:50 AM
Oh.. no hard feelings at all. Science is fun!

This nitrous system was developed by looking at just that. The science of nitrous and why it does what it does. It's not perfect.. but its 100times better than what's offered by NX, NOS, edelbrock, ect... And IMO it's very very close to being ideal as far as a single injection point kit. The Lightning on the other hand is going direct port for an even better cylinder to cylinder distribution. (200 shot)

Timing graph.
I really don't want to overload the motor and since I cannot control the timing or fuel curves. I want to make sure I know exactly whats going on with spark and fuel. So far my "fix" has been old school style of reading plugs (one range colder) and running an excessive octane to help prevent detonation.

Seems to be working as far as I can tell.

My next step is to fine tune the ramp up so as not to get into excessive traction control. Last fall I found that ramping slower actually nets better 60fts. Just gotta spend seat time at it.

Rich

Raze
03-20-07, 12:21 PM
One thing IgotmeaV,

Pressure = FORCE/Area, not velocity*Area, a simple unit check would show you that (say we do it in SI units) meters/sec * m^2 = m^3/sec, I dunno about you but I don't see units for force in your equation. Not trying to bash, just correcting it out for everyone's benefit.


wydopnthrtl,

I missed something and the 3second ramp video didn't explain it exactly, where is the nitrous being injected, is it direct port or before the TB? If it's before the TB, have you pulled your intake manifold off hooked up a blower to approximate airflow sucked into the engine at WOT with the nitrous to see what the pattern may look like? It may not be exact due to the fact that each cylinder that opens will create a low pressure region inside the intake distorting the flow pattern but it may give you an idea if there are any intake problems. Of course the best thing to do would have O2 sensors on each cylinder to check A/F ratio exactly :) I personally wouldn't care as what you've done is waaaay more than enough but since you're an engineer and nothing is ever 'done' it may be something to look at :)

wydopnthrtl
03-20-07, 12:34 PM
I missed something and the 3second ramp video didn't explain it exactly, where is the nitrous being injected,

I have the injector located 180 degrees from the IAT sensor and in the intake elbo. That way you don't throw off what the computer is expecting to see.


If it's before the TB, have you...........give you an idea if there are any intake problems.

This type of cross over intake is absolute murder on "fuel drop out". That's why I started off with a 35 shot, then checked all the plugs. Again with a 50shot.. and with a 100shot. By reading the plugs you can see how hot each cylinder is burning in comparison to the others. For what it's worth the two rear cylinders (closest to the TB) tend to go leanest. Because of the intake design and the two rear cylinders showing *slightly* leaner I shoot a slightly skewed n/f shot by lowering bottle pressure or going bigger on the fuel jet.


Of course the best thing to do would have O2 sensors on each cylinder to check A/F ratio exactly

The stock sensors are called narrow band sensors. They are only accurate for just that. A narrow scope. Using www.autotap.com (http://www.autotap.com) on my lap top I can read them and only change the fuel/nitrous ratio if I'm in the ball park to what a non nitrous pull reads. Generally as long as I'm 50-100mv higher when shooting and the plugs look fine afterwards.. I don't go any deeper into tuning it. Last fall I made 4 100shot pulls back to back like this. No problems at all so I'm happy with the current setup. Just gotta make sure the n/f ratio is right and I have 98 octane in the tank.

With the lightning I use a innovative x-16 wideband. Pushing 15psi and 200 worth of nitrous is just way too much power to be guessing old school style.

Rich

RunningOnEMT
03-20-07, 05:01 PM
One thing IgotmeaV,

Pressure = FORCE/Area, not velocity*Area, a simple unit check would show you that (say we do it in SI units) meters/sec * m^2 = m^3/sec, I dunno about you but I don't see units for force in your equation. Not trying to bash, just correcting it out for everyone's benefit.


wydopnthrtl,

I missed something and the 3second ramp video didn't explain it exactly, where is the nitrous being injected, is it direct port or before the TB? If it's before the TB, have you pulled your intake manifold off hooked up a blower to approximate airflow sucked into the engine at WOT with the nitrous to see what the pattern may look like? It may not be exact due to the fact that each cylinder that opens will create a low pressure region inside the intake distorting the flow pattern but it may give you an idea if there are any intake problems. Of course the best thing to do would have O2 sensors on each cylinder to check A/F ratio exactly :) I personally wouldn't care as what you've done is waaaay more than enough but since you're an engineer and nothing is ever 'done' it may be something to look at :)



sorry ... no way to put a "." over the P... flowrate....

Raze
03-20-07, 09:07 PM
Wy,

I meant wideband O2's :) like something similar to what your lightening sounds like it has, sorry.

Igot,

np dude, I understood, just wanted to make the correction for the non-engineers :)

wydopnthrtl
03-21-07, 07:28 AM
Wy,

I meant wideband O2's :) like something similar to what your lightening sounds like it has, sorry

If I wanted to make this thing go even quicker.. I'd get rid of the cats, put a posi diff in it, go with a wideband, design a direct port kit for it, then get it all dyno tuned.

IMO and based on my cartest program.. this car has a 13.5 potential in it with the right launch and ramp up of a 120-130shot. (street tires)

That's just not what I want out of this car though. I'm just interested in having a little fun and riding in style couple times a week.

Rich

wydopnthrtl
03-21-07, 08:04 AM
I got an e-mail from racetested this morning. The contoller is now for sale and is even less expensive than I thought it would be!

http://www.racetested.com/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=4

Raze
03-21-07, 08:35 AM
nice :thumbsup:

AlBundy
03-21-07, 10:50 AM
Nice work. $150 to add to the budget.

wydopnthrtl
03-21-07, 11:02 AM
Nice work. $150 to add to the budget.

LOL.. I hear ya. I will say this though. Getting away from that big slug of a sudden hit adds so much safety. And IMO on a FWD car it's a awsome way to get your 60fts dialed in.

The only thing I've noticed.. and a reason why I was looking at controller other than my maximizer. Is that when spraying from a dead stop your ramp up times will be longer than if you were rolling. This new controller is just awsome because you can in just a few seconds change the ramp up time.

For instance. On the street I tend to run a 35 or 50shot. (Just for fun.. I never race on the street) And as such I'm generally already rolling along & at a rpm that's 2500+ before I ever start to lay into a WOT. Ramping a 35 shot for 1 second really isn't hardly noticable in my SAE calibrated butt dyno. :bighead: I set it down around .2 or .3 seconds for the street.

But at the drag strip that ramp time is just about right for a 70 or 100shot. My maximizer is much more powerful with options.. but it takes at least one minute to change that setting. This new one with the dials is so much easier to play with and achieve the power curve you want.

Rich