: 1976 Deville Air Conditioner re-charge



jmoffo
03-16-07, 09:19 AM
I bought a '76 Deville in MINT condition knowing that the a.c. was not working. The car has only 50,000 miles on it and rides like a dream. The previous owners said the freon leaked out and would have to be re-charged. (We know what that is like).... :crybaby:

My question is, can I successfully use FREEZE-12 instead of the old Freon in my system after the leak has been found and repaired? I DO NOT want to convert to r-134a. My thermal fuse was blown thus validating (hopefully) that all she needs is a leak repair and new charge.

Thanks for some insight ...

Jeff

The Ape Man
03-17-07, 05:03 PM
Anything that isn't R-12 will not play up to OEM standards. R-12 is usually available on ebay. Sellers are supposed to ask for certification from a buyer. This certification can be learned and then tested online in one evening. Google is your friend. I have enough R-12 cans here to last until I die. Purchased all on ebay.

Broughamadrosis
03-18-07, 05:24 PM
Use caution with the R12 substitutes, even though they are equal or better in cooling efficiency, and have no ozone depleteing side effects, they are not yet EPA approved. Some claim the approval is pending - but some brands contain butane and pose a potential fire hazard.

That being said, I tried some and I'm very happy with the results. Way-chilly, just the way I like it...

The Ape Man
03-18-07, 06:58 PM
Propane works great as a substitute for R-12. Stuff that can blow up usually has other uses. Automotive Hindenberg.

jmoffo
03-19-07, 08:41 AM
Which substitute have you used Broughamadrosis?:confused:

I am going to check if Freeze-12 is EPA certified...I know it has no CFC's

Broughamadrosis
03-19-07, 07:48 PM
I tried HC-12a. The Brougham took 3 cans. It'll give you an ice cream headache...

jmoffo
03-21-07, 08:40 AM
Is it easy to obtain? And if so, where did you get yours? Can I use the same compressor oil I would use for Freon? :thehand:

Broughamadrosis
03-23-07, 09:26 PM
http://www.hc12a.org/

The Ape Man
03-23-07, 09:59 PM
Ur, uh, if this stuff works so well and is cheap then why don't OEMs use it????
Read the MSDS. Like having a bomb under the hood. Even worse is the fact that the car is old and has old hoses which might spring a large leak sometime. They might never find the hood....

Broughamadrosis
03-24-07, 05:40 PM
Hey Ape,
I asked myself the same question - which is how I learned about it's status with the EPA - but not until after I had installed it. However, I don't feel compelled to run out and empty it. Hindenburg? :bomb: - really? Is that on the MSDS?

Jeff asked about the substitutes, and I told of my experience, but not before warning about the caveats.

I don't mean do come off as some fan-boy of the stuff - just reporting the results that I have experienced. If the the thing lights-off and I live to tell about it - I'll post it here :D

But in the meantime, I'm sure that Jeff is a big boy and make an informed decision, based on facts and not uninformed exagerations. :duck:

The Ape Man
03-24-07, 07:32 PM
So you are saying that it's OK to install propane or similar hydrocarbons in an air conditioning system designed to use R-12? Did you read and understand the MSDS before you put the stuff in your car? Ever seen a high side air conditioning hose fail catastrophically? A high side O ring failure? BTW, the MSDS contains a really cute blurb about how sulphur is added to the gas for leak detection. Ice cream headache might be more than just a headache.

jmoffo
03-26-07, 07:16 AM
Well...

This car is my pride and joy...have wanted one ever since my father got rid of his '75...back in '79 for a new Caddy....:crybaby:

So, any info I get, I read carefully. I am going to refill her once the leak is found with good old r-12. That is what she called for 31 years ago...and once the leak is detected and repaired, I hope the r-12 will last me for a while. I do apprectiate all the caveats and did not realize how different the repalcements acually were and how HOMOGENEOUS they are NOT!
:eek:

Thanks a great deal guys!

z06bigbird
04-06-07, 10:21 PM
blow up??? Propane?? Don't give me any ideas????

When I was a kid up in the coal mines, we used carbide and water to make small explosions. I don't know how I survived. I gotta admit. It was fun.

Today, we all would probably be in jail--just for making small explosives when we were about 6 or 7.

ed

The Ape Man
04-07-07, 10:13 AM
blow up??? Propane?? Don't give me any ideas????

When I was a kid up in the coal mines, we used carbide and water to make small explosions. I don't know how I survived. I gotta admit. It was fun.

Today, we all would probably be in jail--just for making small explosives when we were about 6 or 7.

ed

Just imagine getting into an accident with someone who has an AC condensor full of propane at 300 plus PSI. :alchi:

Brother_B
04-07-07, 02:51 PM
I saw on the MSDS for the HC-12A that it was basically other names for substances that have variations on propane in the name. Is it really the same as propane, or is it some safer variation, with some extra (or missing) chemical group?

The Ape Man
04-07-07, 03:42 PM
Even the packaging for this crap is dangerous:

http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/notices/sa/not97_13.htm

Reminds me of the Value Jet crash back in the 90s.

The Ape Man
04-07-07, 03:43 PM
Even the packaging for this crap is dangerous:

http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/notices/sa/not97_13.htm

Reminds me of the Value Jet crash back in the 90s.

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET MSDS Data Sheet in Spanish (http://www.hcrefrigerant.com/spanish/msds_spanish.htm) MSDS Data Sheet in French (http://www.hcrefrigerant.com/english/5195_MSDS_FRENCH.htm) http://www.hcrefrigerant.com/english/images/nclogo.gif http://www.hcrefrigerant.com/english/images/hcrlogo.gif Manufacturer: NORTHCUTT, INC CHEMTREC Address: 5055 N. Broadway Toll Free 24-Hour Emergency Telephone Numbers Wichita, KS 67219 North America: 1 800 424-9300 USA International: 0 730 527-3887 Phone: 316-838-1477 Call Collect Phone: 316-838-6203 IDENTIFICATION Product Name: HC-12a Dangerous Goods Class: 2 HC-22a Division: 1 HC-502a WHMIS Classification: Class A Uses: Refrigerant Class B, Division 1 PHYSICAL PROPERTIES HC-12a Physical State: Gas Vapor Pressure & Boiling Point Info Specific Gravity: 0.535
(psig @ 70F):
70 Evaporation Rate: Fast >1 (1=n-butyl acetate) (kPa @ 21C):
483 Freezing Point: (F) est.: -345 Vapor Density:
1.74 (C) est.: -209 Boiling Point (F):
-28 pH: n.ap. (C): -33 Odor & Appearance: Colorless gas, sweet petroleum odor stenched to allow leak detection Odor Threshold: 4900 ppm Coefficient of Water/Oil Distribution: <1 HC-22a Physical State: Gas Vapor Pressure & Boiling Point Info Specific Gravity: 0.512
(psig @ 70F):
110 Evaporation Rate: Fast >1 (1=n-butyl acetate) (kPa @ 21C):
758 Freezing Point: (F) est.: -306 Vapor Density:
1.52 (C) est.: -188 Boiling Point (F):
-44 pH: n.ap. (C): -42 Odor & Appearance: Colorless gas, sweet petroleum odor stenched to allow leak detection Odor Threshold: 4800 ppm Coefficient of Water/Oil Distribution: <1 HC-502a Physical State: Gas Vapor Pressure & Boiling Point Info Specific Gravity: 0.504
(psig @ 70F):
137 Evaporation Rate: Fast >1 (1=n-butyl acetate) (kPa @ 21C):
945 Freezing Point: (F) est.: -306 Vapor Density:
1.50 (C) est.: -188 Boiling Point (F):
-56 pH: n.ap. (C): -49 Odor & Appearance: Colorless gas, sweet petroleum odor stenched to allow leak detection Odor Threshold: 4800 ppm Coefficient of Water/Oil Distribution: <1 INGREDIENTS ACGIH (2002) Components HC-12a % CAS LD50 LC50 TWA v/v Inhalation rate (8 hours) trimethylmethane 30/60 75-28-5 n. ap. 52 mg/kg 1hr Simple Asphyxiate propylhydride 40-70 74-98-6 n. ap. n. ap. 2500 ppm Non Hazardous Ingredients =<2 n. ap. n. ap. n. ap. n. ap. Components HC-22a propylhydride =>98 74-98-6 n. ap. n. ap. 2500 ppm Non Hazardous Ingredients =<2 n. ap. n. ap. n. ap. n. ap. Components HC-502a dimethyl 3-7 74-84-0 n. ap. n. ap. Simple Asphyxiate propylhydride 60-100 74-98-6 n. ap. n. ap. 2500 ppm Non Hazardous Ingredients =<2 n. ap. n. ap. n. ap. n. ap. FIRST AID MEASURES Eyes: Check for contact lenses & remove if present. Flush eyes with copious amount of water for at least 15 minutes. Call for medical attention if irritation persists. Inhalation: In emergency situations use proper respiratory protection & immediately remove the victim from exposure. Administer artificial respiration if breathing has stopped. Keep at rest & call for medical attention. Skin: Flush with copious amounts of water. Use soap if available. Remove contaminated clothing (including shoes) & launder before re-use. In case of frostbite from contact with liquid, immediately place affected area in lukewarm water & keep at this temperature until circulation returns. If inflammation or irritation develops, seek medical attention. Ingestion: Not likely to occur. PREVENTATIVE MEASURES Personal Protection: Select PPE depending on conditions.
In open systems where contact is likely, wear gas-proof goggles, face shield, chemical resistant overalls & appropriate thermal/chemical gloves.
Where skin & eye contact is unlikely, wear long sleeves, chemical resistant gloves & gas-proof goggles.
Where concentrations in air may exceed the occupational exposure limits & where engineering, work practices or other means of exposure reduction are not adequate, approved respirators may be necessary to prevent overexposure by inhalation. Respiratory protection must be NIOSH/MSHA approved & conform to OSHA rules specified in 29 CFR 1910-134. Engineering Controls: Use only in well-ventilated situations or employ extraction ventilation to maintain atmospheric concentrations well below exposure standards. All mechanical equipment used in ventilation systems must be spark proof. Spill/Disposal Procedure: Eliminate all sources of ignition. Prevent additional discharge of material if possible to do so without hazard. Warn occupants in downwind areas. Disperse vapors with hose streams using fog nozzles. Ensure disposal complies with government requirements & ensure conformity to local disposal regulations. Notify the appropriate authorities immediately. Handling, Storage & Shipping: Store in a cool, well-ventilated place away from incompatible materials. Do not allow cylinder temperature to exceed 130F (54C). Cylinders that are not in use must have the valves in the closed position & be equipped with a protective cap. Transport & store cylinders secured in an upright position in a ventilated space. Use proper grounding procedures. FIRE OR EXPLOSION HAZARD HC-12a LFL UFL Flammability Limits in air (% by volume): 1.95% 9.1% Auto ignition Temperature: 1636 F/ 891C Flashpoint: n. av. HC-22a Flammability Limits in air (% by volume): 2.0% 10.0% Auto ignition Temperature: 896F/480C Flashpoint: n. av. HC-502a Flammability Limits in air (% by volume): 2.2% 10.2% Auto ignition Temperature: 882F/472C Flashpoint: n. av. Hazardous Combustion Products: Carbon dioxide, acrid fumes Sensitivity to Mechanical Impact: Mixture not sensitive, protect cylinders from damage. Sensitivity to Static Discharge: Vapors may ignite if exposed to static discharge. Fire & Explosion Hazard: Flammable air vapor mixtures may form if allowed to leak to atmosphere. Accumulation of gas is an ignition hazard. Vapors are heavier than air & may travel to an ignition source. Flashback along vapor trail may occur. Fire Extinguishing Precautions: Use water spray or fog to cool exposed cylinders. Do not extinguish flames unless leak can be stopped. Fire can be extinguished with carbon dioxide and/or dry chemical. NFPA HAZARD CLASSIFICATION: Health: 1 = Materials that, on exposure, would cause irritation, but only minor residual injury even if no treatment is given. Flammability: 4 = Materials which will rapidly or completely vaporize at atmospheric pressure & normal ambient temperature, or which are readily dispersed in air & which will burn readily. The preferred method of fire attack is to stop the flow of material or to protect exposures while allowing the fire to burn itself out. Reactivity: 0 = This degree includes materials that are normally stable, even under fire exposure conditions, & that do not react with water. Normal fire fighting procedures may be used. REACTIVITY DATA This material is stable. Hazardous Polymerization will not occur. Incompatibility: Nickel carbonyl with oxygen, chlorine, and strong oxidizers. Conditions to avoid: Avoid excessive heat and/or static discharge. Gas explodes spontaneously when mixed with chlorine dioxide. Hazardous Decomposition: Thermal decomposition & burning may produce carbon dioxide & or acrid fume. PREPARATION Northcutt, Inc. 316/838-1477 December 20, 2006 All information given by Northcutt, Inc. is offered in good faith & is believed to be accurate. The information contained in this MSDS is based on supplier and/or other information available at the date of preparation. Northcutt, Inc. does not guarantee the accuracy of this information and it is offered without warranty, guarantee or liability on the part of the preparer.
n. av. Not available n. ap. Not applicable Est. Estimate v/v Volume/volume basis < Less than > Greater than
info@hcrefrigerant.com (Info@hcrefrigerant.com)
Office phone number: 1-800-279-3540
Fax number: 1-316-838-6203