: K&N Air Intake Performance Filter



AbeDevilleArce
02-27-07, 06:32 PM
I changed the Air Filter on my 98 Northstar Deville..and replaced it with a high performance K&N cone air intake filter..Is it safe that the engine is pulling in more air than the original filter???...

codewize
02-27-07, 07:08 PM
You'll probably loose some HP. It won't hurt the engine as long as you keep it cleaned and correctly oiled. They're a huge waste of money in most cases, specifically the N*.

Do a search

CadillacSTS42005
02-27-07, 09:37 PM
SEARCH
:horse:

Ranger
02-27-07, 10:34 PM
Ditto to both of the above posts. The factory filter will flow all the air that the Northstar can swallow at WOT. Do a search.

codewize
02-27-07, 11:14 PM
Your best bet for induction changes are the Volant intake but that's also kind of a waste unless you intend on doing, at minimum, the exhaust

Then you'll want to add a performance MAF sensor. All of that said the real gains will come when you get a new torque converter to accommodate the changes to the torque curve created by the higher air volume.

Yeah we've done this already and I'm not sure they make any of the above mentioned parts for the 98.

weister42
03-01-07, 12:17 AM
Upgrading the air intake is useless unless you have mods done to your car that allows the engine to breathe more air than stock. Things like cat-back exhaust, 80mm throttle body... Hum how come I can only think of two easy mods? Oh yeah they don't really make performance parts for our engine :mad:

CadillacSTS42005
03-01-07, 05:06 PM
or the JET prototype chip
tehe

codewize
03-01-07, 08:07 PM
I just said that!


Upgrading the air intake is useless unless you have mods done to your car that allows the engine to breathe more air than stock. Things like cat-back exhaust, 80mm throttle body... Hum how come I can only think of two easy mods? Oh yeah they don't really make performance parts for our engine :mad:


Punk :)

or the JET prototype chip

tehe

Submariner409
03-03-07, 04:33 PM
:rolleyes: With very few exceptions, almost any filter/pipe setup will flow all the air an engine needs at part throttle. The black magic of "performance" filter systems comes into play at WOT close to redline. Regardless of the filter system, there's still a butterfly valve downstream that absolutely controls flow/volume and manifold vacuum at any opening short of WOT. Go through the hassle of installing a GOOD vacuum gauge in the intake manifold plenum area. If you read less than 1" or 2" of vacuum at WOT/redline, nothing will do any better.

codewize
03-03-07, 07:18 PM
This makes a lot of sense. I think air flow changes, no I know air flow changes make a big difference in the torque curve at ANY throttle position.

I'm specifically referring to my DTS with the Volant CAI, which really is senseless calling it that because it takes air from the same place the factory box does. Just a hell of a lot more of it and you can tell.


:rolleyes: With very few exceptions, almost any filter/pipe setup will flow all the air an engine needs at part throttle. The black magic of "performance" filter systems comes into play at WOT close to redline. Regardless of the filter system, there's still a butterfly valve downstream that absolutely controls flow/volume and manifold vacuum at any opening short of WOT. Go through the hassle of installing a GOOD vacuum gauge in the intake manifold plenum area. If you read less than 1" or 2" of vacuum at WOT/redline, nothing will do any better.

dkozloski
03-03-07, 08:23 PM
Here's the answer for CAI's. http://www.alsblowers.com/sc510.html

codewize
03-03-07, 10:47 PM
Street Scoop? Very sexy, but on a DeVille?

dkozloski
03-04-07, 01:07 PM
Street Scoop? Very sexy, but on a DeVille?
It makes as much sense as a Volant. The factory airbox supplies 99.99% of the engines air requirements. That means that the most there is left to gain is .01%. Anything beyond that is self delusion. Good luck!

codewize
03-04-07, 01:30 PM
Oh I agree with you. I'm not denying that. I got the thing on every ones recommendations then was upset when my torque curve moved so much.

However, I think together with the Corsa and the correct MAF we'll gain a bit of HP across the board and with some fine tuning I think we can get the torque in a happy medium.

Now whether the Volant will play a big roll in that or not I don't know but I can tell you, as I said, it definitely changed the performance characteristics of the engine by itself.

MonzaRacer
03-10-07, 01:41 PM
Well now obviously you fellas forget the name on the front of the car.
The basic design for most air boxes in factory cars combines both normal flow at the OEMs expected use. This doesnt mean it flows perfect nor as much air as is needed.
One thing you fellas seem to forget it is also a silencer too for when you floor it it doesnt moan or howl.
Ford had a real problem on the Fox platform(Mustang) and added a baffle and "horn" on them to decrease the resonance.
Most cold air intakes remove all of the flow obstructions and rough convolutions in the air tract. A K&N flows with less restriction and as it has been tested many times since its inseption to filter the air better, with less flow restriction, over paper filters.
Now improperly oiled it will trash a MAF or not filter properly.
You guys forget your engine isnt pulling air in it is creating an artificial negative preasure event and atmospheric preasure pushes air into the engine.
So in that respect you need to straighten and smooth the air flow path to the throttle body.
Now will you see more power influences with cold air intakes with high flow filters ,but anything you do to make the engine recieve a better air charge makes and economy and power difference.
I have actually found that on a 5 gas analyzer that some engines with advanced level computers (such as the Caddilacc) will give some slightly better emissions numbers.
Now dont get me wrong your not going to put a $150 worth of cold air piping and a free flowing filter and make 10 or 15 horse power. But if your air lows easier then your engine can get a better air charge, then it will make same power with less throttle opening and inturn being more efficient.
Add this to a more aggressive tuning chip/program, maybe a set of headers (I read somewhere that one of the big companies are making N* headers that I believe will fit multiple bodies the reason being is some hot rodders are using the N8/Aurora engines) and a free flowing exhaust system.
The thing is if it meats the owners asthetic sense, and he understands its not going to make super big increases but together with other things(generally the more expensive items get done last) will make a more powerful car, more efficient engine and let the owners feel more pride in thier ride.
I for one have found a 4.0 Aurora engine(baby N*) and have thought of picking it up for one of my Monza projects.
Another thing you might think of , and this is something I have found works pretty much across the board on any engine, and that is a set of matched and flowed injectors. I have seen a set of N* injectors (new factory) have as much difference as 8% and that made the car a different car.
The owner always wondered and we had 3 sets of injectors flowed and only condemed 1 out of 24 out right.
We got 1 set with in less than 1% a set in at around 4.5% to 5% and a lesser set that (less one) in the 5% to 5.5% (the last set was bought by a fella who needed a better set of injectors for a 4 cylinder.
The drivability was incredible (also the car was running all 8!).
Dont discount all parts untill you have a complete team and not just one player on the field.
Lee

Ranger
03-10-07, 05:37 PM
A K&N flows with less restriction and as it has been tested many times since its inseption to filter the air better
Maybe by K & N's tests, but not from independent tests that I have seen, some of which I believe have been posted here.

dkozloski
03-10-07, 08:13 PM
K&N made its name forty years ago by marketing replacement foam filters for motocross dirt bikes to replace filters of the oiled pipecleaner variety. Now they have looped full circle and are marketing oiled pipecleaner filters to replace factory paper filters. The biggest breakthrough in engine longevity in the last seventy five years is the developement of the pleated paper filter to replace old oil bath and oiled pipecleaner filters. If you take a look at air filters used on industrial machinery and trucks where they don't tolerate marketing hype and have years of service records to justify the choice you will universally find pleated paper filters. Some are nested filters three layers deep but they are all pleated paper filters. It boggles the mind to find people that will spend $45,000+ on a car and then put a chickenshit aftermarket gravel catcher filter on it so they can hear the engine roar. The old oiled pipecleaner Donaldson "Air Maze" type filters were discarded as "no good" forty years ago. Let them rest in peace.

Ranger
03-10-07, 09:03 PM
Well put Koz.:thumbsup:

thu
03-10-07, 09:52 PM
I understand that the Army used the K&N filters on the Hummers, but they backed it up downstream with a regular paper filter.

dkozloski
03-10-07, 10:18 PM
I understand that the Army used the K&N filters on the Hummers, but they backed it up downstream with a regular paper filter.
For extreme conditions a common solution for heavy equipment and trucks is nested filters. The outer filter can be as big as a fifteen gallon grease drum. There are additional filters that go inside one another. The K&N on a Hummer would be a good idea; the K&N is a cleanable gravel catcher and the paper filter protects the engine without getting plugged every time you turned around.

dkozloski
03-10-07, 10:26 PM
The falacy of the high performance filter is that the only time it could be of any benefit at all is under wide open throttle at high RPM. Under any other conditions there would be no measureable effect. The driver opens the throttle for the desired street performance. The EMU supplies the correct amount of fuel for good operation with that amount of air and temperature. Any other effect is the product of an active imagination and marketing hype.

weister42
03-10-07, 11:12 PM
Someone should stickie a topic called "Don't buy a performance filter unless you have mods that allows your engine to pull more air"


I personally used a K&N air filter and it did ditty squat, but my oil got darker meaning it contains more dirt.

jadcock
03-12-07, 06:47 AM
Ditto. I tried a K&N on my '97 years ago, and switched back to a real paper filter about two weeks later. It may have shown a slight benefit near redline, but everywhere else, there was a degradation of some kind. Less power/torque on the low end. Worse fuel economy. Engine generally felt "doggish". Threw that junk filter away.

Danwec
03-13-07, 08:31 PM
I switched to a K&N and lost a solid 1mpg. Can't comment on the power gain though, I don't floor it enough to have a solid feeling of what it was like, before and after. I got it dirt cheap though, and I already had the cleaning kit. So I save myself 15 bucks every 2 years for a new filter, lol.

wydopnthrtl
03-19-07, 10:56 AM
There seems to be a lot of conjecture on this forum about the effects of a K&N panel or a conical.

Well.. lets explore some facts.

1) Delta P (change in pressure)

The best way to hurt a pumps performance (think of your engine as a air pump) is to never feed it enough to begin with. You simply cannot make *more* power (with a mostly stock engine) without the proper ratios of air, fuel, and ignition.
All stock tunes that I've ever seen on a OBD2 car are F-A-T. They / we do this because of high milage requirements.. and because some people out there will flog the living snot out of a car. (Gotta keep the burn cool with a little excess gas)

Now.. I know that Fords (my background) and I *think* my eldo go to preset parameters when you go WOT. Just sat I datalogged my eldo and the short term fuel trims and O2 readings go to the same settings no matter what. (summer or winter) Even spraying nitrous my short term fuel trim goes to the same spot. (zero to +2% btw) Given these criteria.. if you can supply cold and unrestricted air to the motor then you've increased it's **potential**.

I proved at the track that this works on my 01eldo. I dropped 1/10th and gained 1mph doing nothing but a K&N panel filter & modifying the air box -to- radiator cowls opening size. Trap speeds don't lie.

2) Filtering ability.

K&N filters do NOT filter better. They filter worse. I've seen video of independant tests. I've also rebuilt engines that used K&N products. They are not usually too bad.. but it's not uncommon to see dirt trails in the intake runners.
There is a add on "outer wear" pre-filter that solves this though. :thumbsup:

3) Conical vs panel filter.

A conical filter will feed a round shape with laminar flow better than will a contorted shape before and after a panel. It's basic science. HOWEVER feeding an engine hot air (less dense) will hurt you more on a stock motor than you'd ever gain from a conical shape. So.. if it's not sealed off you'd be better off with a panel on a stock N*.

4) Value on a N* (my opinion.. not fact)
Honestly.. unless you spend time drag racing or at extended high speeds it's a waste of money. And if you don't open up the stock air box -to- radiator cowl.. it's definately a waste of money.

5) Gas milage
I have datalogged many many vehicles in this aspect. Not once have I measured an increase from a K&N alone. Not once.
Supprisingly though.. I have measured low rpm torque increase on nearly every single one I've ever measured. Generally it's around 4ft lbs at 2000-2500 rpms. (hadn't expected that one)

As for me and my eldo. I run a panel K&N, I've increased the airbox to cowl opening by 50%, and added a 4" tube to feed that area. (grabs air from the main grill) I didn't seal it on purpose to keep rain out of the air box. And.. at speeds over 60mph you can definately feel a tip in power increase.

Rich

msta293412
05-15-07, 09:03 AM
Well put Rich, didnt catch what model you have, but I did the exact same thing you did and I felt some performance increase. Not to mention I have the JET-TECH MAF. Although, I have a flow -through cat, and 3" exhaust(magnaflow). But I did loose a little low end torque when I put the 3" piping in addition to the flow-through cat. I had the cat first. I am putting the stock cat for much needed back pressure, as the factory tune is not supplying enough spark timing advance for all that air moving in and out. I will be dialed in pretty good, when I gat my sock cat back on in about 5 hours from now....Oh, by the way, I have 2001 STS......stay tuned...literally.

fubar569
05-17-07, 02:18 AM
right now i do not have a K&N filter, but will be purchasing one based on rich's data...for these reasons...

i have cut the stock airbox-to-headlight hole on my deville open from top to bottom of the airbox, i have cut the metal out underneath the airbox from frame rail to edge of airbox, cut out bottom of airbox to match and sealed with foam to the steel, have cut the lower chamber to filter tray as open as possible while retaining all mounting points, cut off the silencer, ground down all baffling in the airlid, and sealed the edges of the airbox with foam as well. i also removed the splash shield so it can suck that cool air up from below...i also plan on eventally making a heatshield to enclose the stock airbox and seal it from the engine bay entirely (only suck air from headlight and down below). this should keep heat away and allow a much cooler charge. i also want to eliminate the slinky pipe that is between the airbox and MAF right now.

Under these conditions i believe the K&N wll be a benefit to me as i will also have the shortened runner intake, 80mm TB/spacer combo, and dual 2.5" exhaust with crossover eliminated, no cat, resonator, and maybe bullet mufflers.

on a stock car...i'd never do it...with supporting mods however it can only help...

jadcock
05-17-07, 07:22 AM
If you do a K&N, I would just watch your oil UOAs to ensure you're not getting additional dirt through the engine. Everyone has their opinion, but 3 hp isn't worth the extra dirt, to me.

msta293412
05-17-07, 10:30 AM
With the mods I have to the air intake and exhaust, as some others posted they have as well....Its worth closer to 10-12...my g-tech agrees as well.

fubar569
05-17-07, 08:13 PM
i didnt get the K&N today, but here is what i did acomplish:

made about 2/3 of my heatshield. my heatshield is not totally sealed from the engine bay...you can not totally seal the stock airbox....it's impossible....unless of course you go to a custom airbox and remount the PCM...

however, it is 2 layers aluminum flashing with 2 layers of the foil backed insulation for home heating vents sandwiched between them...so it goes: flashing, insul, insul, flashing......

it was cut, riveted, recut, unriveted, riveted, trimmed, and duct-taped in place. it really is held in by the tension of the stock airbox on one side. the strut tower side has a cutout for the stock pipe to the MAF,and the lip folds over as does the lip on the engine side. this is so i can screw a lid on top and also bring it over to the cowl. this should enclose it about 85-90% or better from the engine bay's heat and hopefully result in a cooler feed of air. after the lid is on i plan to go over the box and cut up scrap and cover any obvious problem areas, tape off small gaps, etc so it is as covered and enclosed as possible...

i hopefully will get the K&N for it tomorrow...found one locally in stock but about 65 bucks...ouch...

i am also going back to the dragstrip tomorrow and will report back the new times. since my last trip i have gotten rid of the mufflers and traction control, further modded the airbox, will have a K&N filter, and the full heatshield in place...

msta293412
05-18-07, 10:09 AM
Seems Im seeing you every where FUBAR, I gather you have the 97 deville? What youve done sounds good, let us know. For the record in my 2001 STS, G-tech times consistantly say 0-60=6 seconds, 1/4 mile=14.3's, all this here in South Florida lowest temps ran in high 70's. and some wheel spin.

fubar569
05-18-07, 10:20 AM
Seems Im seeing you every where FUBAR, I gather you have the 97 deville? What youve done sounds good, let us know. For the record in my 2001 STS, G-tech times consistantly say 0-60=6 seconds, 1/4 mile=14.3's, all this here in South Florida lowest temps ran in high 70's. and some wheel spin.

i want me an ETC or a STS something fierce...but gotta settle for what pops up...paid 7500 with 69k on it for my 97...next one will be new hopefully...im thinking CTS-V...

msta293412
05-18-07, 10:36 AM
I hear ya...I would love to get a pcu upgrade to realy put me in some seriouse times, I think with a pcu upgrade and some cold weather( 50's), wich is freezing here. With some hook up , I could REALISTICLY do 5.7 or so 0-60, and 13.8 or so 1/4 mile. I am salivating at the thought alone......