I broke GM's Price Code !!
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Cadillac ELR Forum Discussion, I broke GM's Price Code !! in Current Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Well after all the talking and scratching of my head as why GM would price this ELR so high it ...
  1. #1
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    DG2
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    Well after all the talking and scratching of my head as why GM would price this ELR so high it now make some sense. In today's Wall Street Journal there is an article as to what kind of car the richest people in America (the dreaded 1% ) drive. Number one on the list is the Tesla !!! That surprised me quite a bit as I expected a Bentley Rolls-Royce Mercedes-Benz . the article and the news program went on to say how the rich people are more about making a social statement than the expensive car itself hence I think GM is counting on that small demographic to pay the big bucks for an ELR. Guess the boys in Detroit did their homework !

    Read the link below.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intel...eigns-supreme/

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  3. #2
    Blastphemy is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    The challenge for Cadillac is that the Tesla is actually worth the price, both for the cachet of the brand and the advanced technology. There is no original half-priced Tesla dressed up to look like a faux halo car; the Tesla Model-S and Roadster are the real deal from day one. If Cadillac can separate the Volt underpinnings from the ELR's branding, then it has a chance.

    But there are three problems: (1) Rich people know the value of a dollar, and there's a pervasive perception that the ELR is just a dressed-up Volt. Even though the ELR has lots of technology the Volt could only dream of having, the question is whether that tech is worth a $35k+ premium. And most of that tech isn't even new, and is available on less-expensive cars. And features like a heads-up display (that's been available on Buicks for at least two years and will be available on the next Escalade) aren't even included with the ELR. (2) Rich people like power, and the Tesla delivers. Even the non-performance Model-S can rocket off the line. The ELR? Well, it goes from 0-60 one second faster than the Volt. Whoop-dee-doo. (3) The Model-S is a full-size sedan that can seat five comfortably and seven if necessary. The ELR? It can seat two (sort of) comfortably and four if necessary.

    GM probably should have released the ELR first and then blessed the masses with the half-priced Volt once the prestige of the technology was established. But that's 20-20 hindsight, and doesn't help GM at this point.
    GProdigy likes this.

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    Fair points indeed.

  5. #4
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastphemy View Post
    The challenge for Cadillac is that the Tesla is actually worth the price, both for the cachet of the brand and the advanced technology. There is no original half-priced Tesla dressed up to look like a faux halo car; the Tesla Model-S and Roadster are the real deal from day one. If Cadillac can separate the Volt underpinnings from the ELR's branding, then it has a chance.

    But there are three problems: (1) Rich people know the value of a dollar, and there's a pervasive perception that the ELR is just a dressed-up Volt. Even though the ELR has lots of technology the Volt could only dream of having, the question is whether that tech is worth a $35k+ premium. And most of that tech isn't even new, and is available on less-expensive cars. And features like a heads-up display (that's been available on Buicks for at least two years and will be available on the next Escalade) aren't even included with the ELR. (2) Rich people like power, and the Tesla delivers. Even the non-performance Model-S can rocket off the line. The ELR? Well, it goes from 0-60 one second faster than the Volt. Whoop-dee-doo. (3) The Model-S is a full-size sedan that can seat five comfortably and seven if necessary. The ELR? It can seat two (sort of) comfortably and four if necessary.

    GM probably should have released the ELR first and then blessed the masses with the half-priced Volt once the prestige of the technology was established. But that's 20-20 hindsight, and doesn't help GM at this point.

    1) decent point, and a perception you are guilty of helping to perpetuate as well
    There is no original half-priced Tesla dressed up to look like a faux halo car; the Tesla Model-S and Roadster are the real deal from day one. If Cadillac can separate the Volt underpinnings from the ELR's branding, then it has a chance.
    though not true, having Volt-Tech does not make it a Volt they are different and only mainly share drive train components and battery the rest of the car is unique and upscale, this is really no different from the same 4, 6, or 8 cylinder engine showing up in the 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 series BMW or the 3.6 being in the ATS, XTS, CTS, and SRX. also ELR being a range extended electric vehicle can be driven like a car, and it can charge itself if you don't want to be tied to charging outlets/stations. no need for different infrastructure like battery changing stations or supercharger stations, seems to me these are the kind of things you want close to home but posh place wouldn't want around to ruin their neighborhoods charm

    2) true power is very much on the well-to-do's radar but cool trumps speed and it doesn't matter how fast a car is if it's the new "it" car to have and i offer the Hummer H2 and Toyota Prius as two examples of slow pigs on the road that had their day in the sun as the car the rich and famous liked being seen in. will ELR achieve this that remains to be seen, but a really nice lease would go a long way towards getting it there.

    3) the Model S is a 4 door luxury sport sedan, meant to be the cool tree hugging alternative to the high end family car, the ELR is a luxury coupe, it's meant to be an executives statement toy, not too many coupes seat 5 to 7 comfortably, nor were they meant to. two people in style and comfort... four in a pinch if you have to leave your drunk buddies 6 series coupe at the sushi place because he had too much sake. I'm 6'2" and big stocky like a football player, when i attended a private viewing cocktail party for the ELR for grins and giggles i decided to stuff myself in the back seat, and to my delight no stuffing was necessary the only awkwardness was getting past the front seatbelt which is anchored in the back i just pulled it out and over my head, and the drastically sloping roofline, I couldn't hold my head straight up i needed another inch, legroom was fine, so a six footer or shorter would have no problem. incidentally when i got in the back the car was rushed by people taking pictures of me they couldn't believe that i fit.

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    Blastphemy is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    i offer the Hummer H2 and Toyota Prius as two examples of slow pigs on the road that had their day in the sun as the car the rich and famous liked being seen in.
    I didn't realize the Prius cost $75,995 for the base model

    Heck, even the Hummer H2 maxed out at around $63,000 which is affordable by upper middle class households. One didn't need to be wealthy to buy either of those cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    will ELR achieve this that remains to be seen, but a really nice lease would go a long way towards getting it there.
    I completely agree. If I can get in on an ELR lease that's the equivalent of a $60,000 MSRP, I'll take it without a moment's hesitation. There's definitely math that would get it there, but the planets would have to align (i.e., $7,500 off the cap cost to match the Federal tax credit the lessor would lose; at least $3,000 redemption allowance for GM Card holders; a $2,500 loyalty/conquest rebate taken off the cap cost to offset document fees, tire fees, registration fees, etc.; money factor of 0.0008 or less; residual value of $55,000 or more; and 12,000 miles or less driven per year of a 36-month lease). I'm not arguing that the ELR isn't a great car; I'm just asserting it's overpriced by $20,000.

    What I expect to happen is that Cadillac will (i) sell those Saks Fifth Avenue ELRs at full price to 100 lucky customers who have the wealth to do so, (ii) sell another 100-500 ELRs at full price to lucky customers who see the $75,995 - $83,145 price tag as a much better deal than the $89,500 white version, and (iii) then offer aggressive incentives after those first 200-600 units are sold since it will have tapped out the "$90,000 is pocket change and I don't want a Tesla/BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar/etc." market

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    decent point, and a perception you are guilty of helping to perpetuate as well
    I ain't perpetuating anything; the car's specs speak for themselves: http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...dillac-ELR.pdf

    The ELR is a Volt with sort-of-recent and more expensive tech dressed up to look cutting edge. Its HiPer Strut suspension has been in Buicks since at least 2010, and Lane Departure Warning & Forward Collision Alert are already in the Volt they're so old. The C.U.E. system has already been out more than a year (but that does mean there's a chance it's been improved for this new car, although the videos of it in the ELR on Cadillac's website seem to indicate otherwise). It is faster, but I'm not really impressed by 0-60 in 8.8 seconds. Still only has FWD. Has one mile less of electric range than the 2014 Volt. And on and on... Oh, and my 6'3" father-in-law fits fine in the back seat of my Volt; but that ain't gonna be the case with the ELR, as you pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    the ELR is a luxury coupe, it's meant to be an executive's statement toy
    For me, the ELR is the car I wanted when I bought the Volt. I came from an Infiniti FX50 and M56, so I was used to features like Around-View Cameras for parking, Lane Departure Warning, Blind Spot Warning/Intervention, Forward Collision Alert, Adaptive Cruise Control, cooled and heated front seats, power seats with multiple adjustments and memory, 0-60 in 5 seconds, rear-wheel drive, etc.

    The Volt didn't have any of those options (although the 2014 Volt apparently has Lane Departure and Forward Collision alerts), but I was tired of filling up my V8 engines with premium gas twice per week, and the Volt was 30% less expensive than my Infinitis, so I grabbed a fully-loaded 2012 Volt and have never looked back.

    But I've never lost that desire for an EREV car that was as feature-rich, functional, sporty, luxurious, and appointed as my two Infinitis. I had hoped the ELR would be that car. But it doesn't have cooled front seats. And it doesn't have a head's-up display. And it doesn't have Around-View cameras. And it doesn't self-parallel park. And it doesn't have a Mark Levinson sound system. And while the 0-35 acceleration is snappy, that remaining 35-60 is still sluggish (on paper, at least). And what is Cadillac charging? $10-25,000 more than my fully-loaded top-of-the-line Infinitis!

  7. #6
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastphemy View Post
    I didn't realize the Prius cost $75,995 for the base model

    Heck, even the Hummer H2 maxed out at around $63,000 which is affordable by upper middle class households. One didn't need to be wealthy to buy either of those cars.



    I completely agree. If I can get in on an ELR lease that's the equivalent of a $60,000 MSRP, I'll take it without a moment's hesitation. There's definitely math that would get it there, but the planets would have to align (i.e., $7,500 off the cap cost to match the Federal tax credit the lessor would lose; at least $3,000 redemption allowance for GM Card holders; a $2,500 loyalty/conquest rebate taken off the cap cost to offset document fees, tire fees, registration fees, etc.; money factor of 0.0008 or less; residual value of $55,000 or more; and 12,000 miles or less driven per year of a 36-month lease). I'm not arguing that the ELR isn't a great car; I'm just asserting it's overpriced by $20,000.

    What I expect to happen is that Cadillac will (i) sell those Saks Fifth Avenue ELRs at full price to 100 lucky customers who have the wealth to do so, (ii) sell another 100-500 ELRs at full price to lucky customers who see the $75,995 - $83,145 price tag as a much better deal than the $89,500 white version, and (iii) then offer aggressive incentives after those first 200-600 units are sold since it will have tapped out the "$90,000 is pocket change and I don't want a Tesla/BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar/etc." market



    I ain't perpetuating anything; the car's specs speak for themselves: http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...dillac-ELR.pdf

    The ELR is a Volt with sort-of-recent and more expensive tech dressed up to look cutting edge. Its HiPer Strut suspension has been in Buicks since at least 2010, and Lane Departure Warning & Forward Collision Alert are already in the Volt they're so old. The C.U.E. system has already been out more than a year (but that does mean there's a chance it's been improved for this new car, although the videos of it in the ELR on Cadillac's website seem to indicate otherwise). It is faster, but I'm not really impressed by 0-60 in 8.8 seconds. Still only has FWD. Has one mile less of electric range than the 2014 Volt. And on and on... Oh, and my 6'3" father-in-law fits fine in the back seat of my Volt; but that ain't gonna be the case with the ELR, as you pointed out.



    For me, the ELR is the car I wanted when I bought the Volt. I came from an Infiniti FX50 and M56, so I was used to features like Around-View Cameras for parking, Lane Departure Warning, Blind Spot Warning/Intervention, Forward Collision Alert, Adaptive Cruise Control, cooled and heated front seats, power seats with multiple adjustments and memory, 0-60 in 5 seconds, rear-wheel drive, etc.

    The Volt didn't have any of those options (although the 2014 Volt apparently has Lane Departure and Forward Collision alerts), but I was tired of filling up my V8 engines with premium gas twice per week, and the Volt was 30% less expensive than my Infinitis, so I grabbed a fully-loaded 2012 Volt and have never looked back.

    But I've never lost that desire for an EREV car that was as feature-rich, functional, sporty, luxurious, and appointed as my two Infinitis. I had hoped the ELR would be that car. But it doesn't have cooled front seats. And it doesn't have a head's-up display. And it doesn't have Around-View cameras. And it doesn't self-parallel park. And it doesn't have a Mark Levinson sound system. And while the 0-35 acceleration is snappy, that remaining 35-60 is still sluggish (on paper, at least). And what is Cadillac charging? $10-25,000 more than my fully-loaded top-of-the-line Infinitis!
    a couple of points...... you alluded to the Volt being cheaper version of the ELR by stating
    There is no original half-priced Tesla dressed up to look like a faux halo car
    and reinforced your statement by saying
    If Cadillac can separate the Volt underpinnings from the ELR's
    and the article you linked to that supposedly supports your argument that one is a dressed up version of the other doesn't mention the volt.

    the cars have some shared origin no doubt, but they are not the same, VOLT is a 5 door hatch ELR is a 2 door with a trunk, VOLT has strut, ELR has Hi-Per strut, VOLT has basic shocks, ELR has auto adjustable self tuning shocks, VOLT has filament bulbs ELR is totally LED. they may at best be platform mates but GM's ability to twist and squeeze platforms into different cars is stellar, and this is basically a standard operating procedure with car manufacturers. no one holds the fact that the new 5 series is a shortened 7 series and much more closely tied to each other against bmw except those who don't like the change in handling that came from its transition from being a stretched 3 series (bmw was never taken to task for this sharing either) so I think them separate and whenever the two are compared ELR is often described as a big boy VOLT which it is not.

    the Hi-per strut suspension as not being new to ELR is not a knock either. there are 4 basic commonly used suspension types, beam types (live axle, torsion beams), wishbone, multilink, and strut, these and variants of these are pretty much used in every car almost no one has a new idea here, and Hi-Per strut is state of the art when it comes to strut type suspensions, and in your context should probably considered kudos to the buick rather than a knock on the ELR.

    as far a the Prius and Hummer you were talking about power not price, and i presented 2 slow cars that were popular with rich people, and your pricing is incorrect on the hummer

    in 2009 the Hummer SUV body style was offered in 3 trim levels

    1SA - H2 SUV - $63,090
    1SB - H2 SUV Adventure - $64,855
    1SC - H2 SUV Luxury - $70,765

    that was before options, with options "Maxed out" you would get:

    chrome pkg - $1,295
    brush guard - $675
    floor mats - $200
    rear entertainment - $1,295
    bose audio - $495
    Navigation - $1,720
    back up camera - $295
    third row seating - $860
    air suspension - $1,275
    premium paint - $295

    you added $6,685 leaving you with a price of $77,450 for a maxed out unit

    Lastly, stuffing your father-in-law in the back of a coupe is just mean

  8. #7
    Blastphemy is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    I don't think you need to quote an entire post when it's right above your reply. That seems rather silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    1SC - H2 SUV Luxury - $70,765
    you added $6,685 leaving you with a price of $77,450 for a maxed out unit
    I'm not sure how it helps your argument by telling me a maxed out top-of-the-line Hummer H2 is just $1,455 more than the price at which the ELR starts. That's like reminding me a fully pimped out Cadillac Escalade Platinum AWD is barely $1,000 more than a fully-loaded ELR. How can anyone possibly believe a fully-loaded ELR is worth the same price as a the most expensive Escalade? No way! Even with the Voltec powetrain in the ELR, that's a ridiculous proposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    VOLT is a 5 door hatch ELR is a 2 door with a trunk, VOLT has strut, ELR has Hi-Per strut, VOLT has basic shocks, ELR has auto adjustable self tuning shocks, VOLT has filament bulbs ELR is totally LED.
    So that's why the ELR is worth double the price?

    I'm not contesting that the ELR is much better than the Volt in many ways; I'm saying it isn't worth the 200% premium.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    the article you linked to that supposedly supports your argument that one is a dressed up version of the other doesn't mention the volt.
    Sorry, I thought you would extrapolate the comparisons. Here's a chart (Red = Better):

    Dimensions++++++++++++Volt+++++++++ELR
    -------------------+------------+-----------
    Battery capacity++++++++16.5 kW-hr (same)
    Gas generator specs++++++++identical
    Fuel economy++++++++++37 mpg+++++++33 MPG
    Torque (lb-ft/Nm)++++273/368++++++295/400
    0-60 mph+++++++++++++++9.1 sec++++++8.8 sec
    Top Speed++++++++++++100 mph++++++106 mph
    EV Range++++++++++++++38 miles+++++37 miles
    Front disc rotors+++++11.8"++++++++12.6"
    Base Curb Weight++++3786 lbs+++++4050 lbs
    Trunk Volume++++++++++10.60++++++++10.50
    Height, Overall+++++++56.64 in+++++55.90 in
    Length, Overall++++++177.10 in++++186.00 in
    Track Width, Front++++61.20 in+++++62.10 in
    Track Width, Rear+++++62.10 in+++++62.40 in
    Wheelbase++++++++++++105.70 in++++106.10 in
    Width, Max++++++++++++70.40 in+++++72.70 in
    Front Head Room+++++++37.80 in+++++36.90 in
    Front Hip Room++++++++53.73 in+++++52.90 in
    Front Leg Room++++++++42.05 in+++++42.20 in
    Front Shoulder Room+++56.52 in+++++55.20 in
    Rear Head Room++++++++36.02 in+++++34.70 in
    Rear Hip Room+++++++++51.21 in+++++48.60 in
    Rear Leg Room+++++++++34.10 in+++++33.60 in
    Rear Shoulder Room++++53.90 in+++++49.90 in

    Fully-loaded Price++$41,000.00+++$83,000.00

  9. #8
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    the car is worth what the market will bear and what people are willing to pay for it, this is the same reason a loaded Escalade is $25k more expensive than a loaded Tahoe, granted it's not double, but the differences are way less, tahoe/escalade are extremely close to each other in occupant capacity and vehicle use and the volt/ELR have a lot more differences than that. probably a better comparison would be an LTZ silverado vs an escalade, like Volt/ELR they have shared starting points, and like Volt/ELR they have different bodies/features/amenities and like Volt/ELR there is about $40k difference in price. so Chevy vs Cadillac like Volt/ELR in GM truck platforms there is a $25-$40k premium you pay for going Cadillac is it worth it? in trucks Cadillac people think so, like i said before with ELR that remains to be seen, but i'm not willing to draw a line in the sand and call it too expensive yet, i've seen crazier trends. but if i'm honest, I personally would take the Tesla, i'm a sucker for speed, then again I've been wrong on electric cars before, I was squarely behind fisker over tesla the Karma was just super sexy, but we know where that went

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    Blastphemy is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    I was squarely behind fisker over tesla the Karma was just super sexy, but we know where that went
    I was hoping GM would buy Fisker, fix the Karma's issues, and release it above the ELR (so that it would be $35k Volt, $60k ELR, and $95k Karma). I would have bought a Karma if it had had the features, range, and reliability of the Volt/ELR.

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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastphemy View Post
    I was hoping GM would buy Fisker, fix the Karma's issues, and release it above the ELR (so that it would be $35k Volt, $60k ELR, and $95k Karma). I would have bought a Karma if it had had the features, range, and reliability of the Volt/ELR.
    BOOM!!!!!! my thoughts exactly GM was helping/partnering with Fisker in fact at a private viewing for people who ordered the car to see in person that i attended in San Diego for the Karma, the mule was a re-bodied corvette chassis , the range extender/lawnmower engine/generator was a GM unit as well, and they announced that they bought a new plant from GM that was built for the solstice/sky but never used because they ended those cars and it had a state of the art paint facility that could handle their glass flake (instead of metal flake) paint, wow was that car sexy, you could fall into and take a swim in that gorgeous silver glass flake paint it was like cadillacs black diamond but silver

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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    The difference is the Tesla has world class performance, and it also offers unrivalled customer service. Where is the Cadillac cross country charging network?

    When the ELR goes 0-60 in 4.1 seconds, is as efficient as the Tesla (yes, the faster & larger Tesla is more efficient), seats 7, and offers a nationwide charging network, then the two will be in the same class.

    For that huge price mark-up Cadillac should have put a diesel generator in the ELR to improve efficiency.

  13. #12
    BoughtTheXLR is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: I broke GM's Price Code !!

    Quote Originally Posted by smithb View Post
    The difference is the Tesla has world class performance, and it also offers unrivalled customer service. Where is the Cadillac cross country charging network?
    every.gas.station.there.is

    Comparing an ELR to a Tesla is like comparing an Apple to an Orange. The old saw that "you can't compare apples to oranges" is entirely incorrect. Of course you CAN compare apples to oranges. And the result of that comparison is that there are a LOT of differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithb View Post
    When the ELR goes 0-60 in 4.1 seconds, is as efficient as the Tesla (yes, the faster & larger Tesla is more efficient), seats 7, and offers a nationwide charging network, then the two will be in the same class.
    In other words, when GM builds a car that's not much different than a Tesla S, it will be in the same class as a Tesla S...

    Quote Originally Posted by smithb View Post
    For that huge price mark-up Cadillac should have put a diesel generator in the ELR to improve efficiency.
    I'll agree with that. In Europe, Volvo's got a V60 diesel PHEV that's selling better than they expected, but we won't see it in the US. And when they bring us the XC90 PHEV (which is just as comparable to either an ELR or a Tesla), we'll reportedly get the gas version.

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