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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-08, 01:12 AM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosro View Post
This is very common in these first-generation systems (not just Cadillac). This is not a "failure" in the sense that there is nothing broken and everything is working as designed. There will be no trouble codes found.

These first-generation systems work on a very probabilistic basis. That is, for situations involving a certain amount of traffic, it generates false-positives (brakes when not required) "X" percent of the time and it generate false-negatives (does not brake when required) "Y" percent of the time due to situation-to-situation variations.

As these systems mature, "X" and "Y" should decrease. But be clear - it probably will not go to zero within the next two decades. (Think of it this way - even though anti-lock brakes have been around for almost two decades, there are still cases of "X" and "Y" errors.)
I have experienced this failure on a 4 lane divided highway with no cars near me, no side barricade walls or nothing else that could offer any reflection. There was however a police car parked far off of the right side of the road who I assume was using his RADAR. I was in the inside lane and just as I passed him the ACC alarmed and braked. Even tho I am far too old to be an I/T propeller head I still have the reflexes to reset the ACC and hit the gas before I get run down from behind.

The good news is that the ACC is sometimes a stealth RADAR detector

The bad news is that it is intermittent

Additional Bad news is that the failure causes stopping for no apparent reason and could really be exciting in heavy traffic.

I'm sure that they have a lot of the engineering, technology and manufacturing learning curves to traverse on this function and we all know that we are nothing more than testors for most tech products we purchase. However, it is a shame that the lack of published design objectives and specifications lets them define almost anything as "normal operation".
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-08, 10:08 AM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

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Originally Posted by mack1a View Post
I have experienced this failure on a 4 lane divided highway with no cars near me, no side barricade walls or nothing else that could offer any reflection. ...
What the eye sees and what radar sees are two different things. A manhole cover and a Coke can both have the potential to look like a car. In the radar world, differentiating between a manhole cover and an 18-wheeler is not necessarily easy.

As I said, this is what happens with first-generation systems. If manufacturers wait until the system is perfect, they'll never get it to production because they need real-world usage to perfect the system. So the approach with bleeding-edge technology is always to get it to high-end users first and use those vehicles to further develop the technologies towards a second-generation system.

Consider yourself one of a few elite beta testers!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-08, 01:54 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

My wife's 2008 DTS came with the Adaptive Cruise Control which we did not ask for. When she wanted to put an all-metal grill on in place of the plastic Cadillac grill, the dealer said that the ACC would probably not work. I said that was OK but the normal cruise control had to work correctly, and since I didn't order it to start with, I would not pay for the ACC. They agreed to everything. The Vogue manager (source of the after-market grill) tested the car, determined that the ACC did in fact not work with his grill, but the normal cruise functioned properly with the gap reduced to zero. The dealer took the $1700 for the ACC off of the price of the car.

When we went to pick up the car. The Vogue manager had found a special ACC repositioning kit that moved the ACC down below the grill behind the all plastic facia (bumper???). It had been installed and the cost of the ACC was still removed from the car price. When I asked if the ACC now worked properly, they said yes but refused to add it back to the car price. As far as I can tell, the ACC works exactly as it should. The only problem is that because the ACC is positioned lower, the "CLEAN RADAR" warning comes on more frequently. Reducing the gap effectively solves this problem.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-08, 09:33 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Update.....My dealer has had the car for a week.......They have called in a specialist from the regional office to deal with this problem.So far he has not solved it.He is saying it needs some kind of reprogramming.

As I posted before,they have eliminated the E&G grill which I installed before I took delevery.They have been very nice and I have a DTS to drive until it's repaired.

They offered me my car and a promise to call me when they figure out a fix.I declined and mentioned my stance would change drasticaly if they keep it more than 21 days.........
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-08, 09:26 AM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

It sounds like they are doing all they can, I hope they can resolve this issue for you.
Let us know.
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Views expressed by the author of this post do not necessarily represent those of the Lindsay Automotive Group.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-08, 07:45 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Update......It is finally fixed.After much prodding,GM sent a laser aiming device to my dealer.They set the car up as per GM specs,placed the target in exactly the spot GM specified,attached the aiming device to the radar unit and turned it on.

It was not even close(This is from the factory)but adjustment was just turning the proper aiming screws and only took a few minutes.This option now works as intended and it's really something.Once you set a speed the car pretty much drives itself(You do have to steer)approach a car traveling slower than the speed you have set....The car slows down.

Pull out into the passing lane the car speeds up to your previously set speed.If you have it set at 70 and the car ahead is going 60 it will just follow along until you decide to pass.

I see that I'm beginning to ramble so I'll spare you any more chatter.....IT WORKS......
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-08, 09:50 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid Roger View Post
Update......It is finally fixed.

This option now works as intended and it's really something.

I see that I'm beginning to ramble so I'll spare you any more chatter.....
IT WORKS......
Roger,

Really glad you finally got it fixed "RIGHT"

I am gonna have to go drive one with the adaptive cruise.
It sounds real nice.

Texas Jim
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-08, 10:05 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Hmm... the solution sounds familiar

I have seen a few like that. Hard to say why they are out of aim. Seems to me like a necessary first step to check the aim. It is a pain to aim them because it is complicated to set up the aiming point. The couple I have done were a genunine pain in the rear but well worth it because they were WAY off.

Does it work with the E&G grille?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-08, 10:17 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewill3rd View Post
Hmm... the solution sounds familiar

I have seen a few like that. Hard to say why they are out of aim. Seems to me like a necessary first step to check the aim. It is a pain to aim them because it is complicated to set up the aiming point. The couple I have done were a genunine pain in the rear but well worth it because they were WAY off.

Does it work with the E&G grille?
Yes...The E&G grill was not the culprit,and as you say,the set up proceedure before the aiming is done is quite elaborate,it even includes a full tank of gas.The problem my dealer was having was that most info from GM said the aim is right from the factory and not to make any adjustments.

When the tech center got involved they immediatly sent the laser aiming tool and instructions on how to set things up.I would think the dealer would have this tool but since it is not a popular option it was probably a cost benefit thing...........
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-08, 10:44 AM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Let this be a lesson for those looking to relocate the radar unit in order to accomodate a grill. Position and aiming is crucial! You can't just "point it straight" and call it good enough.

I'll bet it was aimed correctly, but somewhere down the assembly line, someone bumped it.

I'm glad you got it working the way you want. Personally, I don't like the current state of this technology. But when it works, it sure is impressive!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-08, 02:55 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

I have seen them pretty far off. There are 2 style units that I know of. A rectangular one like on the XLR and the round one like on STS.
I haven't seen the DTS unit so I am not sure which they are using.
We have both aiming units. I hate aiming them because I have to set it up every time.
It should be an essential tool... they probably lost it.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-08, 02:16 AM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosro View Post
What the eye sees and what radar sees are two different things. A manhole cover and a Coke can both have the potential to look like a car. In the radar world, differentiating between a manhole cover and an 18-wheeler is not necessarily easy.

As I said, this is what happens with first-generation systems. If manufacturers wait until the system is perfect, they'll never get it to production because they need real-world usage to perfect the system. So the approach with bleeding-edge technology is always to get it to high-end users first and use those vehicles to further develop the technologies towards a second-generation system.

Consider yourself one of a few elite beta testers!

I agree with the beta tester comment. We are all familiar with the concept that almost any complex product has an engineering change line item in the products P&L projection because we sometimes know what we don't know, and sometimes don't know what we don't know but we always know that there is something we don't know that will bite us in the ass after first customer ship. We'll have to fix it after a few data losses, crashes, deaths or however you quantify a failure somewhere along the learning curve of life.

At the risk of repeating myself, this eye did see a police car every time there was an uncalled for alarm and heavy braking with one exception. This old eye may well have missed a nearby radar equipped car on that episode as well.

I have put at least 20K miles on under ACC control and am very familiar with what I consider to be "normal operation" and these episodes are outside the envelope. And of course "normal operation" is sort of a mystery when there are no user specs to finitely state how something works.

Like McCain, I am older than digitized signal processing but I would question anything that lacked the ability to consistently discriminate between an 18 wheeler and a beer can.

Now I am old and feeble and haven't rolled out a nationwide wireless network or participated in the shippment of a new hardware product for several years but I sure do wish I could have had you on my staff to convince the user community that dog food tastes good and shortcomings are "normal operation" and opportunities.

This failure mode is actually quite dangerous as the vehicle alarms and brakes hard for no reason. When I can remember that I am doing the driving I know enough to hit the off button and nail the pedal to get out of the way of the guy behind me with the front bumper down and the tires screeching. I filed a complaint with the NTSB and know that if they see a couple of fatalities they will investigate this issue.

Please pardon this rambling but you know how us older folk can run on.

Seriously, I know you have a lot of good rationale and understanding of problems such as this. But, please don't be the GM advocate as they have a whole corporation full of people who fight resolving or even acknowledging issues such as this due to corrective costs and litigious exposures.

Gee, now that my pulse rate is up from my normal 56 and the juices are flowing maybe I should reopen this issue......Naaaa, Lawerance Welk will be on in a few minutes and I don't want to miss the Geritol and Serutan commercials.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-08, 02:27 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Is there an easy way to tell from "just looking" at the outside if a DTS has ACC? I'd prefer a DTS with ACC; if I go to the auction you only get a few minutes to look and make a decision. Some things are easy: wood steering wheel implies Lux III or Perf. It sure would be easier if Cadillac would badge the trim levels like Buick does with the Lucerne!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-08, 03:23 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pets0undz View Post
Is there an easy way to tell from "just looking" at the outside if a DTS has ACC? I'd prefer a DTS with ACC; if I go to the auction you only get a few minutes to look and make a decision. Some things are easy: wood steering wheel implies Lux III or Perf. It sure would be easier if Cadillac would badge the trim levels like Buick does with the Lucerne!
Yes....Look at the wreath and crest in the grill.If the car has ACC the wreath and crest will be a solid shiney disc as opposed to a seperate wreath and a seperate crest...........
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-08, 10:57 PM
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Re: Adaptive cruise control

Quote:
Originally Posted by mack1a View Post
...
but I sure do wish I could have had you on my staff to convince the user community that dog food tastes good and shortcomings are "normal operation" and opportunities. ...
This is not a product quality judgment here. In fact, if you have read my comments, I have noted that I don't like these ACC systems because I feel the quality and consistency is not there (from post 11 above):

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosro View Post
...My experience with a Mercedes S-class over several days also demonstrated a "hit or miss" performance. In fact, my experience with the S-class led me to swear off such systems completely for the next few years - it's disconcerting the one time out of ten it fails to work.....
"Normal operation" means that everything works according to what the engineers designed. It is not a quality judgment like "Good operation" or "bad operation". Only that nothing is broken. The performance may be "bad" by your judgment but the components may be "normal".

The dog food may in fact be "normal" by virtue of the fact that it is not spoiled or rotten, but it can taste "bad" to human palettes. Understand the difference? Anyone who can not understand the distinction is likely to be doomed to a life of perpetual disappointment and whining.

I wish I could get you into a first generation Mercedes Benz ABS. If you know what you are doing, it is quite easy to put that vehicle in a situation that would make most people pee in their pants. And if we knew then what we know now about airbags ... I could go on.

As even you stated - this is the expectation of being an early adopter.

Last edited by nosro; 04-24-08 at 11:05 PM.
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