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Cadillac DeVille 1985 to 2005 including:
1985-1992 Fleetwood, 1993 Sixty Special, All FWD Forum Discussion, Electrical Issue? in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Hey guys, so I've got two problems and they both have me stumped. Any help is appreciated. 1. My fuse ...
  1. #1
    edupe43 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Electrical Issue?

    Hey guys, so I've got two problems and they both have me stumped. Any help is appreciated.

    1. My fuse box under the hood of my 2000 Deville continues to draw power from my battery even when the car is off. I changed the battery and both terminal wires so there is no corrosion there. Where else could I have a problem? I would think that it is a problem in the key cylinder, but none of my electrical things will work (windows, seats, etc.) so I'm not sure what's the issue.

    2. Because of the above problem, my battery was dead and needed to be jumped off to start. Car was running after I jumped it, then for no apparent reason, the car stopped, display died, and I can't get the display to come back on. Interestingly, when I have the key turned to ON and the auxiliary power plugged in, I can move the seats but I have no lights on my display. I would think that it is just a bad display, but I have seen the lights flicker once since the car died. Finally, I know I am getting enough power to start the car because of the prior "mechanic work" done by a previous owner of the car. So, he had starter troubles and installed a button that can be used to start the car instead of using the ignition cylinder (but the key does need to be ON for this to work). And if I turn the key on and I have aux power, I still have no display but that remote button will turn the motor over as if it wants to start. Any ideas about what's going on, besides the starter button and its problems?

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    reppinshadyvill is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Take your battery to autozone and let them charge it up for you. Check ALL of your fuses. Check ALL of your engine grounds. You have multiple issues #1 is the drain on your battery when the car is off. #2 your cluster is dead. #3 your car wont start but it will turn over. The most important one is #3 so start there. Get your battery charged and try to start the car.

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    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by reppinshadyvill View Post
    Take your battery to autozone and let them charge it up for you. Check ALL of your fuses. Check ALL of your engine grounds. You have multiple issues #1 is the drain on your battery when the car is off. #2 your cluster is dead. #3 your car wont start but it will turn over. The most important one is #3 so start there. Get your battery charged and try to start the car.
    ------------------------------
    and don't forget about the mickeymouse starter button -
    lord only knows what the PO did and WHY -
    good luck - and keep us posted -

  5. #4
    SUPER LAC DEVILLE's Avatar
    SUPER LAC DEVILLE is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by basscatt
    ------------------------------
    and don't forget about the mickeymouse starter button -
    lord only knows what the PO did and WHY -
    good luck - and keep us posted -

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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    TSB ON PARASITIC DRAWS:

    Subject: Platform Battery Drain Diagnosis Process - keywords accessory aftermarket generator low operation regulator volt voltage #PIC3589C - (10/24/2007)



    Models: 1996-2008 Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks that use Class 2 communications




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This PI was superseded to update model years. Please discard PIC3589B.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

    Condition/Concern:
    Platform Battery Drain Diagnosis Process - Battery is discharged for no apparent reason while vehicle is parked and locked - Intermittent draw and/or possible continuous draw(s) that slowly renders the battery below its serviceable voltage amperage level.

    Please follow this process entirely:

    •Define the conditions which trigger the discharged battery:
    • How long does it take for the battery to discharge? This step will help determine if the draw is large or small. Normally a draw, which takes the battery level down overnight after operating the vehicle the day before, is rather large and is related to a switch, relay or other electric/mechanical device. Small amounts of drain which take several days to take the battery from a good state of charge to below the level required to start the engine can be small single bulbs or modules which are either not going to sleep when they should, or waking up intermittently for some unknown reason.

    • How many times has it happened to the customer? This step will determine if this is a Random occurrence and/or intermittent.

    • Does it always happen in the same location? Is there some outside influence that surrounds the vehicle that needs to be taken into account? This is most unlikely, but worth checking-out.

    • Describe the customer's driving habits. Does the battery get to a state of being fully charged on a regular basis or is this vehicle unable to crank due to a generally low state of charge?

    • Is the vehicle equipped with any non-original equipment including cell phone, remote starter, extra lighting, radio, CD player, LOJAK, etc. or OnStar (either dealer or factory installed)? All of these items can be wired in such a way to either constantly draw amperage, which they shouldn't, or in some way affect the class 2 modules on this vehicle and/or the battery and charging system.

    • Does the customer leave the key in the ignition? Leaving the key in the ignition does not generally cause a problem, but if the customer does not come back to the locked ignition position after shutting the engine off however, many draws will be induced. This draw will not be reduced and/or eliminated, this type of draw is due to the fact that the system is designed to keep certain modules awake with the key in this position.

    • What is the previous history on this car, what parts have been replaced, what repairs have been performed either in an attempt to correct this situation or that might impact it? Are there any other reported problems with the vehicle which may relate to a discharged battery concern - items which were previously reported/corrected and/or currently exist that the customer (car recently bought used) does not recognize as a problem or the used car manager reporting the discharged battery is unaware of? Recent repairs may or may not relate to draw diagnosis; i.e. the IPC was replaced recently.

    •Perform a good visual and physical inspection of the battery cables. CHECK TORQUE OF BATTERY CABLE BOLTS. If loose, check for signs of arcing and corrosion etc., grounds and power leads to and from each of these, or BOLT MATERIAL IN BATTERY THREADS, THERMISTOR (if equipped) CONNECTOR FOR PROPER SEATING AND TIGHTNESS. What are the results of a battery/CHARGING SYSTEM test?
    • Perform a generator output test and a terminal drag test on generator terminal L.

    • Fuses related to this concern: check for loose fuses in trunk and engine compartment bussed electrical center by rocking each fuse with one finger, which may help identify the fuse. The only repairs that may be made to the electrical center are replacement of plug-in devices and mounting hardware, as follows: fuses, relays, circuit breakers, electrical center cover, battery stud cover, and other snap-on covers, cover attachment thumb screw, labels for fuse/relay identification, splash shields, and mounting brackets

    •What DTCs are currently present or have been recorded on previous visits to the dealer? Correct as per the appropriate service manual.
    •Road test vehicle for 30-40 minutes, activate all accessories. Open and close all doors, windows, deck lid, etc. CYCLE LUMBAR AND SEAT SWITCHES along with all other manually operated switches including the trunk release, fuel door release, garage door opener, and valet that have power to them all the time while the car is sitting. Don't forget to look FOR A STUCK SWITCH/RELAY.
    •What is the parasitic draw on the vehicle after a 25-minute power down cycle? Using parasitic draw test switch tool J38758 and DVOM J39200, perform a parasitic draw test as per the procedure in the Engine Electrical section Service Information. Record the draw and read the reserve capacity of the battery in the vehicle. Divide the reserve capacity by four (4) and the draw present should not exceed this number. Example: If the battery has a reserve capacity of 100 amperes, the current draw should not exceed 25 mA on the DVOM. See SI for acceptable draw limits for each module the vehicle may be equipped with. Keep in mind the draw created by the OnStar system for the first 48 hours from ignition off. The system will cycle every 10 minutes and cause a spike to approximately 250 mA for about ten seconds, taper down to 75 mA for another 45 seconds and go to less than one mA for the nine minutes until the next cycle begins. This is normal. The Class 2 data line should not wake up during this sequence. This cycle stops if power is removed from the OnStar system for a short period and will resume once the GPS signal is reacquired.
    •If the draw above is determined to be above the appropriate amount for the vehicle involved, are any modules on the class 2 data line staying "active" past the 25-minute time out mentioned above or waking up periodically after this time-out has passed? If one or more module is waking up, how many times and which module(s)? Use the Tech 2 and use the message monitor screen with an external power source to the Tech 2 if performing an amp draw test while using message monitor.
    Recommendation/Instructions:
    Here is a suggested procedure for performing a combination parasitic draw test while monitoring the class 2 devices on the vehicle:

    •Remove terminal 16 from data link connector (DLC).
    •Install tool #J38758 on battery.
    •Connect Fluke 87 to J38758 as described in the Engine Electrical section of the appropriate Service Manual and set to appropriate amp scale.
    •Connect Tech 2 to DLC
    •Connect 110-volt power supply to DLC end of Tech 2 cable.
    •Turn Tech 2 on
    • Main, enter

    • Diagnostics enter.

    • Year

    • Vehicle type

    • Diagnostic circuit check

    • Class 2 message monitor - remember; only modules which are currently communicating on the Class 2 data line will show up on the message monitor screen. If the ignition is in the accessory position as an example, the PCM and ABS controller will not be listed. If a module, which the vehicle is known to be equipped with, does not show up on message monitor when in the run position, this indicates a problem that needs correction prior to proceeding.

    •Allow the vehicle to sit with all doors closed and without activating any switches etc. until the class 2 system has had enough time to power down, less than 25 minutes, or use the sleep mode to put all the modules to sleep. Once the sleep mode is enabled, the first module to "wake up" will be listed first on the message monitor screen with others listed in order of "wake up". The time from being put to sleep until the first "wake up" sequence will also be displayed. If a combination of three or four modules has come active, putting all of the modules back to sleep and pulling the fuse to one module at a time will help to narrow down which module may be waking up inadvertently. Remember that module "wake up" can be caused by several factors. They include, but are not limited to:
    • input changing states - door switch going open and closed (hi/lo)

    • power or ground coming and going to module

    • module internal function incorrect

    • Or in the case of the power master, amperage draws in excess of low power requirements or another module which has these or other related concerns. These all can be checked with the Fluke set to 1 millisecond record speed on min/max setting.

    •Open the gate on J38758, and let vehicle sit for another ten (10) minutes and/or use sleep mode.
    •Review the amperage reading.
    •As the amperage draw tapers down below 10 amps, close the J38758 and switch Fluke 87 to milliamp scale and record min/max on 100-millisecond scale. Open the J38758 again when done. This step will allow the Fluke meter to record any spikes and keep the meter working during the entire sequence. IF MIN/MAX IS NOT SELECTED, THE METER WILL TIME OUT AND SHUT OFF.
    •After the vehicle has been sitting for the necessary time, check the number of counts as per message monitor for each control module, i.e. each time a unit goes from inactive, to active and inactive again. The module(s) with the highest number of counts may indicate a suspect area. Modules may be waking up on their own, (which is most unlikely) or activated by a switch input, power fluctuation, poor ground or input from other modules which are being activated.
    •Once it has been determined that the draw is either a component - relay, switch etc., which is stuck or in some way reduces/contributes to the draw, determine which circuits are specifically involved. Touching and/or removing fuses, relays, and connectors to suspect components after reviewing the current wiring diagram until the draw is reduced to acceptable levels will lead to the correct circuit. When exiting the message monitor screen and then re-entering the message monitor screen, the Tech 2 will also wake up modules. DON'T BE FOOLED. Wait for the module(s) to again go to sleep or use the sleep mode function.
    •Back-to-basics:
    • Checking ground credibility requires a voltage drop test under load

    • ALWAYS TEST FROM THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF THE CIRCUIT - A voltage drop test is performed at various points along the circuit from the ground side toward the positive side of the circuit until the point of high resistance is located.

    • ALWAYS MAKE CERTAIN THAT THE CIRCUIT LOAD IS "ON"

    • ALWAYS USE A HIGH IMPEDANCE METER LIKE A FLUKE 87

    • THE HIGHER THE VOLTAGE READING, THE HIGHER THE RESISTANCE IN THAT CIRCUIT

    • WHEN TESTING, TRY TO ACHIEVE A READING AS CLOSE TO ZERO AS POSSIBLE (USUALLY LESS THAN 25 MILLIVOLTS)

    • ALWAYS START WITH A FULLY CHARGED BATTERY!

    Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

  7. #6
    edupe43 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Thanks for all the help guys.

    So, to clear up, I drove the car every day over the summer and the car was dead after 3 days of no driving. I assume that the battery was fully charged when I left it last because I was on a 150 mile trip before I parked it.

    Also, when I turn the key on, it is the mickey mouse button that will turn the motor, not the key cylinder. If I turn the key to start the car, I get absolutely no response. But, I do not hear my fuel pump when I turn the key to ON, so I'm not sure if it will start at all.

    I have already checked all fuses in both fuse boxes and none of them are bad.

    The PO told me he has starter trouble, had the button installed (for what reason, I don't know), then a few months later had the starter replaced. There is no issue with the starter currently, as far as I know.

  8. #7
    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by edupe43 View Post
    Thanks for all the help guys.

    So, to clear up, I drove the car every day over the summer and the car was dead after 3 days of no driving. I assume that the battery was fully charged when I left it last because I was on a 150 mile trip before I parked it.

    Also, when I turn the key on, it is the mickey mouse button that will turn the motor, not the key cylinder. If I turn the key to start the car, I get absolutely no response. But, I do not hear my fuel pump when I turn the key to ON, so I'm not sure if it will start at all.

    I have already checked all fuses in both fuse boxes and none of them are bad.

    The PO told me he has starter trouble, had the button installed (for what reason, I don't know), then a few months later had the starter replaced. There is no issue with the starter currently, as far as I know.
    ------------------------------
    sounds like a defective ignition switch -
    NOT the lock cylinder - the actual switch -

  9. #8
    edupe43 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    [QUOTE=basscatt;10974514]------------------------------
    sounds like a defective ignition switch -
    NOT the lock cylinder - the actual switch

    Okay, I'll look into that replacement. Thanks a lot!
    For my own knowledge, what is the ignition switch responsible for and how tough is it to replace?

  10. #9
    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    [QUOTE=edupe43;10975074]
    Quote Originally Posted by basscatt View Post
    ------------------------------
    sounds like a defective ignition switch -
    NOT the lock cylinder - the actual switch

    Okay, I'll look into that replacement. Thanks a lot!
    For my own knowledge, what is the ignition switch responsible for and how tough is it to replace?
    ------------------------------
    the ignition switch is located inside the steering column -

    there is a rod that connects the lock cylinder to the ignition switch -

    when you turn the key to ON -
    the rod moves the ignition switch to the ON position -
    and activates all the electrical stuff that comes ON when the key is turned ON -

    when you turn the key to START - it moves the rod -
    and the rod moves the ignition switch to the START position -

    same with the ACCESSORY position - and the OFF position -

    my theory is something went wrong the the START position within the ignition switch -
    and it was easier/cheaper for the OP
    to install the doorbell button than replace the switch -

    and maybe now the ignition switch has more problems than just the START position -

  11. #10
    edupe43 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    [QUOTE=basscatt;10975202]
    Quote Originally Posted by edupe43 View Post
    ------------------------------
    the ignition switch is located inside the steering column -

    there is a rod that connects the lock cylinder to the ignition switch -

    when you turn the key to ON -
    the rod moves the ignition switch to the ON position -
    and activates all the electrical stuff that comes ON when the key is turned ON -

    when you turn the key to START - it moves the rod -
    and the rod moves the ignition switch to the START position -

    same with the ACCESSORY position - and the OFF position -

    my theory is something went wrong the the START position within the ignition switch -
    and it was easier/cheaper for the OP
    to install the doorbell button than replace the switch -

    and maybe now the ignition switch has more problems than just the START position -
    Well that sounds easy enough and could be a one part fix. Do you think that replacing the ignition switch would also fix the draining of the battery?

  12. #11
    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    [QUOTE=edupe43;10976650]
    Quote Originally Posted by basscatt View Post

    Well that sounds easy enough and could be a one part fix. Do you think that replacing the ignition switch would also fix the draining of the battery?
    -----------------------
    that was part of my theory -
    the START circuit of the ignition failed first -

    now the ON circuit is failing -
    NOT turning everything off - thus draining the battery -

  13. #12
    98eldo32v's Avatar
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    The ignition switch mounts on the end of the ignition lock housing. The covers and the steering wheel will have to be removed to gain access. Some special tools maybe needed to remove the tiny bolts that mount the switch to the lock housing.

  14. #13
    edupe43 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Well, I replaced the ignition switch but no luck. I still don't have any power to my dash, fuel pump, starter, etc.
    While I was at it, I got my battery charged too, but it doesn't do much good if my car won't run...
    Any other ideas? Could the relay be bad?

  15. #14
    edupe43 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Finally some progress! I checked the Ignition Switch fuse today (I did check it before changing the switch and it was bad) and it was bad, so I switched it out with a good one and now my car is running! I have power where it belongs and I got to drive my car on the road for the first time in a long while!

    But, there is still some problem because my car is draining power when the car and ignition switch are off. I replaced the ignition cylinder but that didn't help, so I'm not sure where to turn next.

    Thanks for the help so far! Does anyone know where I could look next to end my draining spree?

  16. #15
    JimD is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Electrical Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by edupe43 View Post
    ....But, there is still some problem because my car is draining power when the car and ignition switch are off. I replaced the ignition cylinder but that didn't help, so I'm not sure where to turn next.
    If you have electrical/electronic training and experience, you should now be looking at how much current the battery is supplying to the vehicle after the RAP (Retained Accessory Power) system times out (10 minutes).

    If you do not have the training/experience to read and interpret what a simple ammeter display is telling you, maybe you know someone who is qualified.

    The method is not complicated but it must be followed to the letter. Let us know when you are ready to proceed and I will type out the step by step procedure I would use along with the results you can expect from an electrical system that is behaving 'as designed'.

    And 'as designed' precludes any owner-installed aftermarket electronic gizmos including start switch bandaids.

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