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Cadillac DeVille 1985 to 2005 including:
1985-1992 Fleetwood, 1993 Sixty Special, All FWD Forum Discussion, My Sixty Special is explosive in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; This is what you FPR looks like Yep if somebody has a problem with injectors, then they must all be ...
  1. #16
    dennis93coupe's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    This is what you FPR looks like



    Yep if somebody has a problem with injectors, then they must all be crap. Wrong, there are hundreds of thousands of the Multec injectors in these engines and you only read about the ones that have or had a problem.

    Never put 12volts directly to one of these injectors. They can be checked with a node test, but usually a simple ohm test between the terminals of each injector will tell you if the coil is good or bad. I would say if you are in fact running rich then check the FPR where the vacuum hose is connected. Just take the hose off the regulator to see if it is wet. If you are still not satisfied then take the entire fuel rail with the injectors off the engine, fuel lines connected and sealed. Connect a fuel pressure gauge to the rail and turn the key on. If you have an injector that drips or leaks then change it. The Bosch injectors are fine from what I have read, but I am still waiting to see a realistic comparison from smog test and mpg comparison. Read your FSM on checking the parameters for the O2 sensor. It's all there starting on page 6E-9 and read starting with PCM DATA DISPLAY. Record all of the parameters as you procede through the parameters. I prefer to do this when the engine is warmed up going down the road. Go back to 8D-1 to learn more on parameters. Like Ranger said, the FSM can be intimidating but it is all there. You just have to be patient reading that book.

  2. #17
    DReffects's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    i've started reading the service manual... pew... tons of abbreviations and stuff and the mechanic i am working with (or rather trying to help^^) does not speak english. i'Ve checked the error codes today and got the following:

    stored codes:
    E48 - EGR System Problem
    E52 - PCM Memory Reset
    E98 - High RPM P/N To D/R in ISC Range

    Active codes
    E48 - EGR System Problem

    The service manual states that the E48 Error is being set when the oxygen sensor fails to indicate a leaner mixture in 3 out of 5 tests. According to the manual during the test, the PCM turns off EGR flow to the engine and monitors the oxygen sensor integrator (what exactly is a oxygen sensor INTEGRATOR?!). With the EGR turned off, the integrator should swing to a higher value, reflecting leaner air/fuel mixtures. If not, the PCM assumes that either EGR was turned off before the test or that EGR is flowing and the PCM does not have the ability to turn it off.

    That leaves me with a coulple of options: (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong)

    - faulty oxygen sensor (easiest fix...^^)
    - EGR solenoid not closing properly
    - Faulty PCM (wargh!)

    Would this error code rule out the possiblility for faulty injectors alltogether? I've looked at the engine today, removing the injector array is quite difficult replacing the oxygen sensor would be a ultra cool fix...

  3. #18
    98eldo32v's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    That must have been on hell of a bang to rip open that muffler....

  4. #19
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Quote Originally Posted by DReffects View Post
    i've started reading the service manual... pew... tons of abbreviations and stuff and the mechanic i am working with (or rather trying to help^^) does not speak english. i'Ve checked the error codes today and got the following:

    stored codes:
    E48 - EGR System Problem
    E52 - PCM Memory Reset
    E98 - High RPM P/N To D/R in ISC Range

    Active codes
    E48 - EGR System Problem

    The service manual states that the E48 Error is being set when the oxygen sensor fails to indicate a leaner mixture in 3 out of 5 tests. According to the manual during the test, the PCM turns off EGR flow to the engine and monitors the oxygen sensor integrator (what exactly is a oxygen sensor INTEGRATOR?!). With the EGR turned off, the integrator should swing to a higher value, reflecting leaner air/fuel mixtures. If not, the PCM assumes that either EGR was turned off before the test or that EGR is flowing and the PCM does not have the ability to turn it off.

    That leaves me with a coulple of options: (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong)

    - faulty oxygen sensor (easiest fix...^^)
    - EGR solenoid not closing properly
    - Faulty PCM (wargh!)

    Would this error code rule out the possiblility for faulty injectors alltogether? I've looked at the engine today, removing the injector array is quite difficult replacing the oxygen sensor would be a ultra cool fix...
    ------------------------------
    The service manual states that the E48 Error is being set
    when the oxygen sensor fails to indicate a leaner mixture in 3 out of 5 tests.


    sounds to me like the engine is still running way too rich -
    a faulty FPR leaking fuel - or bad injectors - leaking/dumping fuel -
    and the PCM can't regulate/compensate it -

  5. #20
    cadillac_al is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    If the car runs fine and the mileage is fairly normal I wouldn't stress over it. I would slap another muffler on it and worry about it later. That muffler was probably evenly rusted all around the seam and it all let go at the same time.

  6. #21
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Quote Originally Posted by basscatt View Post
    ------------------------------
    The service manual states that the E48 Error is being set
    when the oxygen sensor fails to indicate a leaner mixture in 3 out of 5 tests.


    sounds to me like the engine is still running way too rich -
    a faulty FPR leaking fuel - or bad injectors - leaking/dumping fuel -
    and the PCM can't regulate/compensate it -
    To add to this, if you suspect this scenario, the PCM's fuel trims can be viewed through the onboard diagnostics. The block learn is maxed out at a value of 160 - and in that case, the PCM is adding as much fuel as it can. 128 is "normal". 108 is bottom.

    Viewing fuel trims is usually a great place to start when solving engine running/driveability issues...

  7. #22
    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac_al View Post
    If the car runs fine and the mileage is fairly normal I wouldn't stress over it. I would slap another muffler on it and worry about it later. That muffler was probably evenly rusted all around the seam and it all let go at the same time.
    -------------------------
    That muffler was probably evenly rusted all around the seam
    and it all let go at the same time.

    take a little closer look at that muffler -
    it didn't just "unwrap" due to rust -

    that type of damage can ONLY happen from an EXPLOSION -

    put a new muffler on it - without fixing the problem -
    WILL result in another blown-up muffler -

  8. #23
    DReffects's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Thanks for the hint about the fuel trims - so if the PCM adds fuel like crazy i can rule out a faulty injection and should focus on the EGR and or oxygen sensor?
    Is there a way to test the oxygen sensor directly?

  9. #24
    c_d
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Yes with a multimeter. You don't even have to disassemble anything. There are many youtube how-to's around, some even being in German. Look for opens/shorts, seized (locked up sensors), and if you can and have the right graphing volt-meter even for "run-aways": signals that exceed the 1V and cause lots of trouble in the car's computer. You can see those by having a cheaper volt meter in the min/max setting.

    EDIT: As already mentioned by another poster, check the fuel trim through the computer first. When I posted a couple of days ago, I was unsure about what data a 95 car would give but someone mentioned you do have access to that info. He even provided you with the min, mean, and max values. That should be your first action point.

  10. #25
    DReffects's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Will do

    I don't mind the english instructions but i am no mechanic and there's some understandable reluctance with my mechanic if something should go wrong. also, i am not always at hand to translate

    have to say: this forum is amazingly helpful. thanks to all of you!

  11. #26
    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Quote Originally Posted by DReffects View Post
    Will do

    I don't mind the english instructions but i am no mechanic and there's some understandable reluctance with my mechanic if something should go wrong. also, i am not always at hand to translate

    have to say: this forum is amazingly helpful. thanks to all of you!
    -------------------------------------
    you have already tested the injectors -
    and you have several out of speck -

    The resistance ranged from 1.7 ohms on #6 injector
    to a normal range of 15.8 on others.
    The problem was only two injectors were normal or working!!
    Others were in a range of 7 to 11 ohms."


    why not replace the KNOWN DEFECTIVE parts -
    before digging deep into the unknown -

  12. #27
    DReffects's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    you have already tested the injectors -
    and you have several out of speck -
    Uhm, no - i havent tested them. That was a quote from another forum and an instruction on how to test the injectors. The injectors are hard to get to unfortunately

  13. #28
    basscatt's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    Quote Originally Posted by DReffects View Post
    Uhm, no - i havent tested them. That was a quote from another forum and an instruction on how to test the injectors. The injectors are hard to get to unfortunately
    ----------------------
    OOPS - I misunderstood your post -

    you need to test the injectors -
    they are not that bad to get to/replace -

  14. #29
    DReffects's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    I know shitty thing is that once you pull the injectors you cannot move the car anymore^^ I'll try my very best over the weekend!

  15. #30
    DReffects's Avatar
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    Re: My Sixty Special is explosive

    i've checked the BCM/PCM settings for that oxygen sensor readings - here are the results:

    PCM Test P.1.4 (Oxygen sensor voltage) => 0.53-0.58 Volts
    PCM Test P.1.8 (Fuel integrator) => ~133
    PCM Test P.2.0 (Block learn) => ~140

    Can you guys get to any conclusions with these values? I've noticed that the Diagnostics mode was still reporting rich conditions.

    We also did some kind of exhaust testing I don't know the proper english term to. Basically you stick some kind of thing up the rear end (^^) and you get a "HC Value" that should be around 80 (according to the german manual). It ranges from 240-380. On the other hand the mechanic noted that NO catalytic converter is installed at the moment so it's hard to tell if that due to the converter missing or something else. But apart from that: there seems to be a high concentration of unburnt fuel coming out of the muffler.

    We did a test drive and I've showed the mechanic the stuttering when applying low pressure to the gas pedal round 70 MHZ. He clearly stated this would be some misfires / ignition lapses. We then proceeded to switch out the spark plugs. Oh boy I've never had more trouble switching spark plugs. Took us nearly 5 hours. Three of the eight spark wires split while trying to pull them out. Spark plugs itself unfortunately all looked ok. We've replaced them anyway.

    Before putting the new ones in we've did a "compression test" of the cylinders, all are ok.

    During the reassembly of the ignition system i've noticed that spark wire #1 was way to easy to put on the spark plug. So we've replaced a fourth wire. Due to time constraints we were not able to check the EGR Valve, that's the next on my list.

    It seems to be impossible to reach the fuel injectors without taking everything apart, so I wasn't able to test them

    Reset all the error codes, during my drive home the 'check engine soon' líght stayed off and i had no stuttering. but that just could be luck. I really don't think that the last spark wire that was kinda loose was the problem.

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