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My 1997 Deville needs new engine...

3K views 25 replies 11 participants last post by  optiplex 
#1 ·
I just bought my mom a 1997 Cadillac Deville. The car has only 37,301 miles on it. It is mostly immaculate and seemed a pretty good deal for $4,000.

On one of her first trips out, the engine overheated due to water pump belt sheering. There was no way to know just how hot it was gettingas there is no actual gauge but rather a series of warnings, but the computer did shut down the engine as a precaution.

Against my advice, she has had the car towed to a Cadillac dealer. I was worried about this because the advice I read online about this dealer was mostly negative. So now the dealer calls and says the entire engine needs to be replaced. Problem is, there are no parts for such engine. I'm dealing with a salesperson who tells me what the technician said, she's reading from his notes. I told her to have the mechanic call me. But it seems for now the head was warped, etc. His "recommendation" is just replace the whole engine instead because, as he states, by the time he pulls the heads, he may find more damage.

My mechanic where I live (my Mom lives in Hawaii) is suspicious because he agrees this particular model car's computer would have auto-sshut the engine to prevent further damage. As it did. So I don't get how the engine could be damaged if the auto-shutdown occurred.

So now... I cannot afford a new engine, even if the parts were available, due to helping mom with this and other financial issues. I have my own family's financial challenges to address as the sole breadwinner, so I am more or less shrugging my shoulders and calling this a loss. But now my 70 yr old mother will be without a car so I'll eventually get dragged into solving that problem as well. I may be able to scrounge up the money to get the engine fixed (heads rebuilt?) but no way I can justify a new engine on a older car that may spring up a whole other set of problems down the road.

Any suggestions from the Caddy enthusiasts on here?

Does anyone have a mechanic recommendation in the Honolulu area? NOT a dealer?

Thx.

Frustrated.
 
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#2 ·
:welcome:

Whatever dealer the car is at, is completely full of it.

The heads are still on the engine, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to diagnose a warped head without removing them, which requires removal of the entire engine. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that a head is warped in the first place. The Northstar was designed and tested to run for 50 miles with NO coolant.

Parts ARE available for these engines.

The DIC will display a message to turn the engine off, but the engine will not turn off automatically.

Have the car towed to a good, independent shop, and have the water pump belt, tensioner pulley, and if necessary, drive pulley replaced.
 
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#5 ·
Northstars don't typically mix oil and coolant as a result of HG failure, nor do they blow white smoke out if the exhaust in the early stages. The chemical test the tech mentioned is called a block test. It indicates if there are traces of combustion gasses in the cooling system, a sign of HG failure. Why they would do a block test on a car that had a water pump fail (and why they would run the engine without a functioning water pump), is suspicious.

IF there is an HG issue, there is no reason to rebuild the engine, and just about no chance that the heads will need any work whatsoever.

99.9% of the time, HG failure in a Northstar is due to pulled head bolt hole threads. The only fix is to remove the engine, drill out and tap all 20 bolt holes to accept either inserts or studs, and put it all back together with new head gaskets. $2,000+.

Get the second opinion, and go from there.
 
#7 ·
There is a reason they are known as "Stealerships".

I think I read that you are in Hawaii. If so, this is going to cost you a lot. Hopefully you can find a private shop that will give you a fair deal. Meanwhile, if they fix the water pump issue, even if the HG is blown, people have been known to drive with it blown for years. Depends on how bad it is.
 
#8 ·
That dealer has already proven itself to be untrustworthy and more likely unscrupulous. GET THAT CAR OUT OF THERE and find an honest mechanic. In all probability all you need is a new belt. Possibly a new belt tensioner and worst case scenario, maybe a new WP drive pulley.

As for the HG. A block test kit can be borrowed from AutoZone for free (just pay for the test fluid). Simple test to check for a HG failure.

Sounds to me like that "stealer" thought they had a fish on the line and started to real it in. Spit the hook and run!

P.S.
Expect a diagnostic fee. I'd balk at much more than $100.
 
#11 ·
WOW, I am so thankful for this resource. Thank you all so much for caring to give me advice and helping me solve this dilemma.

The lady at the "stealership" told me, "You may need to just donate this car to charity". It looks like this situation may be salvagable. The problem for me now is I have to pay for an $8,000 repair to my home that is being rented while I work overseas and that is going to sap most of my savings so getting this fixed for Mom is going to push my financial resources to the limit (if only my brothers and sisters would step up to the plate for once... but that's another story) for the next few months.

Do any of y'all think the car is safe to drive? Meaning to drive it to another shop close by (within 5-8 miles) and NOT do any further damage? It would seem that is possible, from some of your commentary but the stealer sales lady says its not... though she doesn't seem to know squat about cars. All she does is read the notes of the mechanic and call me back for the sales process. Shady, super shady. Maybe I need to get it towed though. I hate that idea because if it's towed the new shop knows we're a slave to their recommendations for repair as we won't want to be towing it all over town for estimates.

Mom has called a few shops who all claim they can do the job but they don't really know what's wrong either until they look at the car. I get that. The problem is I don't want the car to end up at some shop that double's the repair cost of whatever may be wrong... it's sort of out of the frying pan and into the fire. I know the advice is to get the car out of the stealership, but to where? I need to find a reputable shop first. Thus far my searches online have turned up limited results.
 
#13 ·
WP belt was replaced, yes. $97 for that. Plus $150 for their diagnostic work. The mech shop I'm going to take the car to thinks it's probably drivable but he's unsure as well because the info I'm giving him is as open-ended as what the stealer told me... which is that the car is not drivable. But if it's not drivable, then how did they do the supposed block test. Because that test required starting the engine, running it up to normal operating temp then testing for the combustible gasses in the cooling system. So the engine runs, yes. That much I know. But beyond that all I get is the sales rep telling me it's not drivable. Again, she doesn't know much about engines. She can't even return my calls.

I did call one shop I got from yelp. He had pretty stellar reviews. But as soon as I mentioned the name he refused to go any further. His words: "No, no, I won't do head gasket on a Cadillac because it's an aluminium block and once the HG is damaged the block is warped." I tried to interject and tell him what y'all told me but he just cut me off and hung up on me. Glad I didn't go to him.

Does anyone have a recommended resource for finding a Cadillac/ Northstar mech in Honolulu? Thus far I'm turning up very little options beyond the dealer.
 
#14 ·
The sales rep is feeding you a line in hopes of reeling in a large repair or selling you a new car.

If the belt was replaced and the cooling system filled, a 5-8 mile trip will be no problem. In fact, that may be all it needed in the first place (hard to tell from here).
A lot of shops are afraid of the Northstar because they are unfamiliar with it, but you DO NOT want someone like that touching it anyway.

Can't help with a shop in HNL though.
 
#16 ·
Mom said few shops balked at the "Aluminum block" issue of the Northstar as well.

I'm hoping it's drivable and that she can just drive it home so that I can regroup to get it fixed by someone who knows that engine... if anything needs to be fixed at all.

One thing I thought I may have noticed... when I shut the motor down as a precaution, prompted by the DIC to do so, I then restarted a couple minutes later to get it out of the way of traffic. I ran for maybe a minute and maybe 2-300 feet before stopping but it did seem to be "sputtering". Though I can't be sure because I was more or less at idle and lightly touching the gas. But that's the reason I pulled over, it was as though the engine seemed to be running on 3 or 4 cylinders, something like that. I took it as a sort of "safe-mode". But again, I'm not certain.
 
#17 ·
IF the engine overheated to the point at which it went into "camel mode" to protect from further overheat, it would have alternately dropped two or four cylinders from combustion - that pulls cool air into the dropped cylinders, removing some - some - heat from the engine. The cylinders dropped change so that all cylinders can shed some - some - heat, so the engine WILL run with reduced power and increased vibration.

If someone believes that 265 degrees of block temp will warp something, they don't even want to know what temps the exhaust valve heads, ports and manifolds run at when you're calmly tooling down the Interstate at 80, much less doing speed runs to 130+.

Your first post and Post #3 - are we sure this is a head gasket or rather a failed water pump drive - belt tensioner or w/p ???
 
#18 ·
Thanks Submariner,

That's really good information.

I am told the WP is fine, it was the belt that shredded. It was just old I guess. The dealer mech did run the engine and nothing was mentioned about a leaky WP so I assume it's fine. I did inquire about it when I paid the bill over the phone ($97 for the belt, $150 for the diagnostic) and the sales rep indicated she thought it was ok as there was nothing in the mechanics notes. This is the last time I ever deal with a dealership. They are so evasive as to exactly what's going on because I never get to talk to the actual person who is working on the car. I am not use to that. I have 3 cars of my own and a very trustworthy mechanic. I keep them in top shape so he keeps busy on my stuff alone. What I appreciate is he always explains to me what I'm paying for and why. And he usually helps me research and determine the least expensive solutions.

As I was researching this today, I came across "Heal-A-Seal" link here on Cadillacforums. I think the engine is fine. But I'm going to go ahead and purchase that product and apply it just to be safe. I don't have any other choice. A new engine is OUT of the question for me.

For now Mom is going to pick up the car at the stealer tomorrow and drive it to her house (8-9 miles away). She's going to take the side streets so as to do 25 mph and be gentle with the engine until I can get to Hawaii in July to sort this all out.

To everyone that has helped with input thus far: I'll keep y'all posted and thanks so much for lending me all this advice. I really hope this story turns out for the better and we can keep the car. I grew up in Caddys. My father got a new one every 5 years, that's part of the reason Mom wanted this one and I thought it a fitting present for her 70th B-day (dad passed away). Every 3 or 4th rental with Alamo I treat myself to luxury car upgrade and usually get a CTS. So I'm a Caddy fan, but this experience with the stealer rubbed me the wrong way.
 
#22 ·
OK, so no heal-a-seal... got it. But what if the heads are warped or cracked?

I'm not letting that particular dealer touch that car again and until I find a mechanic in the area who knows the Northstar engine, I'm stuck.

However... good news. Mom picked up the car today and drove it home. It performed just fine. She did take the back streets but didn't go over 35 mph. No problems reported, no overheating. When she got to the dealer she told me the manager took the car around the block and he reported that it was running fine. She told him how the technician recommended a new engine, or to junk the car, and he seemed concerned. He said he plans to "talk" to that tech. She also called the BBB and they reported very few complaints of that dealer, FWIW. But just two days ago their techs told me, repeatedly, that the car was "undrivable" and that it needed a new engine. WTF??

So hopefully the car is ok now. But, as an owner, there's no way to really know until I find the right mech to look at it. I asked Mom to just keep it parked until I can get out to Hawaii in July to take a look at it. I plan to search out a the right mechanic by then.
 
#23 ·
The chances of the heads being "warped or cracked' are slim and none. My guess is that the engine needs cooling system care and feeding by an experienced tech - or by an owner/helper that has done a lot of homework in a Cadillac website, has a good idea of how the cooling system works, and can put together a small package of parts and tools for import into the Island State. I guess there's some sort of car parts chain store on the island, so basic stuff/liquids should be simple.

If she simply parks the car until July the battery will be dead - these cars, in proper condition, have a constant 18 - 25 mA drain on the battery to keep the module memories 'fresh" and to monitor the TheftLock system.
 
#24 ·
I dont know what kind of a person would frighten a older lady by telling her that the car is not drivable but its not a new scam it happen to my 80 year old mother to the tune of a valve job on her low miles v8.

When I would visit her I would maintain and fix the car if needed when she told me about the valve job i inspected the car and for some reason i pulled the coil wire out of the distributor cap and someone had put oil in it. I wanted to go talk to the guy but mom would not let me.

The sad thing is your mom may not trust the car anymore. Mike

Oh and one more thing when they installed the distributor they caught the primary ignition wires between the distributor flange and the manifold.
 
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