2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions - Page 2
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Cadillac DeVille 1985 to 2005 including:
1985-1992 Fleetwood, 1993 Sixty Special, All FWD Forum Discussion, 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; So - I pulled the Electonic Level Control Compressor. For reference, if anyone is interested - You'll need: a 10mm, ...
  1. #16
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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions


    So - I pulled the Electonic Level Control Compressor.
    For reference, if anyone is interested -
    You'll need: a 10mm, 8mm, 15mm and a couple smaller sized flat-head-screwdrivers.

    With the 15mm loosen the top rubber-bracket bolt for the passenger side muffler, pull it off the bolt and and let it hang, this will allow easier access to the compressor package.

    Loosen and remove the two 10mm bolts that are obscured by the muffler and the two 10mm nuts (in the rear and right-front side). The compressor system is now "un-bolted" from the car.
    Three other connections must be dis-connected:
    • The air-intake filter is housed in the uni-body frame with a plastic clip, follow the air-hose up and pinch the plastic fastener to remove it.
    • Also the electronic control & power is still hooked-up, disconnect this.
    • Lastly, the air-hoses are still connected (in two ways) 1. at the pump outlet the lines can be unhooked similarly to how they come off the shocks (i.e., via a reusable metal clasp) 2. the lines are fastened to the "system's" housing with an 8mm bolt, un-bolt this and you can re-use the holder (or, if you're inclined just snip the zip-tie but then you won't be able to reuse this niffty bracket).

    Now the compressor system is out and ready for testing. Of note though - if you disconnect the power/control wires while all is still in place you could just supply power to the unit and skip removal. To do this connect the power to the black/green-stripe wire and ground to the black.

    Here is the bench test:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9fu-...OUMDz3dEjyZAEE

    ----------

    So - the compressor went back in and I re-tested the ELS with a couple guys sitting on the trunk-ledge. Again a no go. BTW - I tested the fuse(relay) before I started any of this. It's in the fuse box under the rear seat (#55 if I re-call correctly). It was good. What I did to test it was swap it with the fuel-filler door and test it in there, worked, no problem.

    Since the compressor was fine I put the driver's side rear on a jackstand removed the wheel and went at the lever sensor.





    I popped the lower ball fitting (where it attaches to the suspension) and with the car started and running manipulated the arm through its full range, nada. So I pulled it. Of (very important!!) note:
    -- the bolt located above the 'sticker part-number' is pressed into the bracket. DO NOT pry the bracket fully loose from this - if you do it will fall into the UNI-BODY's "black hole" *.



    Just pry the bracket loose enough so that it can be removed. Follow the electrical wires to their connection and disconnect. The sensor can now be removed. (IMPORTANT - if the car will be used while the sensor is disconnected I highly recommend covering the open connection on the car's harness with a sturdy plastic bag secured with a zip-tie)


    * - I did this and it fell into the black-hole, I think I was extremely lucky because I retrieved it (totally blind) with a magnetic tool in less than a minute









    ----------

    Now I have this part - that I believe is bad .
    Is there any other component to the system I am overlooking?



    ... and is this pricey??

  2. #17
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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by thedill View Post
    I popped the lower ball fitting (where it attaches to the suspension) and with the car started and running manipulated the arm through its full range, nada.
    The compressor should of turned on when you moved the arm of the position sensor to simulate the rear of the car being low.
    The exhaust valve should open when you moved the arm of the position sensor to simulate the rear of the car being high.
    The engine doesn't have to be running... just key on.



    Quote Originally Posted by thedill View Post
    Is there any other component to the system I am overlooking?
    Before replacing the level sensor I would recommend checking the various power and grounds per the schematic below. You could also pull the ELC relay and jumper V10 to T11 and the compressor should turn on... no need to pull the compressor for a bench test.

    thedill and thedill like this.

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    Red face 00 Deville supplies a handy-dandy schematic!!

    Now you tell me, lol.... thanks I'll run thru this tomorrow.

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    wire testing via the schematic

    I jumped the connection thru the fuse panel and the compressor kicked in.

    I tested the resistance of the level sensor, here's what I found:

    Black wire and Blue wire - when the lever is fully "up" (a fully loaded condition on the vehicle) = 800 ohms
    this decreased (in what appeared to be a linear fashion) to 400 ohms at about "3 o'clock" and went to infinity from there to the end of travel (lever fully "down").


    ----------

    I also tested the Black and Red wires

    Lever fully up = 780 ohms
    (this one didn't 'stop' providing resistance at "3 o'clock")
    Lever fully down = 412 ohms

    (the black, blue and red wires are what comes out of the Suspension Position Sensor (this differs from the schematic from 00 Deville, I believe those colors to be what's on the harness(?))
    Any ideas?

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    Re: wire testing via the schematic



    For any Lurkers all the information in this thread is applicable to a
    DHS or Base Deville... not a DTS.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedill View Post
    I jumped the connection thru the fuse panel and the compressor kicked in.
    Now we know the compressor has the ability to run... we need to figure out why the ELC relay is not closing to turn the compressor on. Pin V11 of the relays coil should have 12 volts on it all the time. It takes a ground from the RIM to the other side of the coil pin T10 to close the relay.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedill View Post
    (the black, blue and red wires are what comes out of the Suspension Position Sensor (this differs from the schematic from 00 Deville, I believe those colors to be what's on the harness(?))
    -The colors on the schematic are car harness colors. Not sensor pigtail colors.

    -Where it says A,B,C (directly above the sensor) is the sensor's electrical connector. (A,B,C are pin numbers or letters in this case)

    -The FSM doesn't give resistance values of the sensor. It gives what the voltage values should be. The infinite resistance value does corcern me though.

    Sensor
    Pin A should be a constant 5 VDC all the time from the RIM.
    Pin C is a ground from the RIM all the time.
    Pin B is going to vary from 0.35 to 4.75 volts depending on the position of the sensors input arm. This is the position feedback to the RIM so it knows when to tell the compressor to turn on.

    With the sensor hooked up you should be able to probe in the back of pin B (the center pin of the connector) with a meter and watch for the voltage to change from 0.35 to 4.75 volts depending on the position of the sensors input arm. It should be a linear change with no dead spots. My suspicion would be that you may loose the voltage when you get to the position that you saw the meter go to infinity during the resistance checks.

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    Re: wire testing via the schematic

    THANK YOU! I will run thru a voltage test sometime this week.

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    When you run the voltage test on the sensors potentiometer let us know what kind of feedback voltages you read.

    If you have a dead spot (no voltage / infinite resistance)... try to determine if it's in the normal range of travel of the sensor. Or if the dead spot could only be reached if the car was on a lift or jacks with the wheel hanging.

    A couple more ideas...

    -You could also check to see if you’re getting a ground from the RIM to pin T10 of the relay coil when the position sensor voltage (on pin B) reads close to the maximum (4.75) or minimum voltage (0.35).

    -You could apply a ground with a jumper wire to pin T10 of the relay coil (with relay installed) and make sure the compressor turns on.

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Finally got around to checking the system again.

    Have 5 volts at "A" and a ground at "C" on the harness. Didn't get to testing the variable volts coming out of the "B" on the sensor, while it was hooked-up, it would seem I have to splice into the wire...

    Grounding "T10" gets nothing.

    Put 3volts to the sensor on a "bench test." For reference: looking at the sensor - 12 o'clock full load-on-suspension. 6 o'clock full UNload-on-suspension.
    Minimum reading was at 12 o'clock and max was at 6. Appeared linear across the spectrum, I don't know the validity of the test though because it was only get 3 volts into it.

    Had a little issue blowing an important fuse during the testing..... but got that fixed.

    Unfortunately the ELC system is still a no-go.

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by thedill View Post
    Grounding "T10" gets nothing.
    This is the key point that you need to concentrate on.

    -You've already determined that the compressor will run if you jumper V10 to T11 of the relay.
    -Closing the relay should have the same effect... compressor running.
    -If you applied a ground to T10 the relay should close... causing the compressor to run since V11 is hot (12 volts) with the key in the "on" position.

    -Verify that you do indeed have 12 volts on V11(with the key in the "on" position)... if you do... once again apply a ground to T10 with the relay installed. If the compressor doesn't run you may have a bad relay.

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    Unhappy Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    More test results.
    Key OFF:
    V10 - no voltage
    V11 - no voltage (which it shouldn't, I think, right?)
    Ground T10 - nothing happens (given the statement above, not surprising)
    Key ON:
    V10 - no voltage
    V11 - 12volts
    Ground T10 - compressor energizes/runs
    I can only speculate that my earlier (last week) jumping the fuse panel was with the Key-ON and via V11 to T11, i.e., I don't think I jumped V10 to T11 and got the compressor running, given today's results I don't see how I could have done it any other way.
    So, I think my problem is V10 has no voltage... (BTW - 00Deville, thanks for all your help, keep it coming)


    ----------

    OK - this'll mud it more (and buttress my reticence to 'working' electrical issues..)

    Just went back and did this:

    Jumped V10 to T11 - compressor energizes/runs in both: Key ON and Key OFF
    Jumped V11 (with Key ON) to T11 nothing

    This above was done without the Relay 'plugged' in. The tests before these (the grounding of T10 and the measuring voltages) was done with the Relay 'plugged' in.

    I am just about totally confused....

    Adding this - I know my statements above are contradictory, I am just reporting my measurements; the fact that at one time I am unable to get a voltage reading from V10 (despite several measurements with the DMM on the relay's pin, while 'plugged' in) then (w/o the relay 'plugged' in) am able to jump V10 to T11 and energize the compressor is what I find frustrating/confusing... but we'll lick this problem yet, I hope...

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Time to take a deep breath. I'm afraid thedill has performed a bunch of work needlessly. (that's okay, experience is the best lesson) I've read through the thread a couple of times and I did not notice at any time a mention of troubleshooting for the initial running of the compressor shortly after turning the ignition on.

    In order for the compressor to run a ground has to be supplied to pin T10 of the ELC relay, this ground comes from the RIM. And this ground is applied after initial key on of the ignition. Take your DVM or ohmmeter and probe the socket of the ELC relay at T10 with the other lead on a KNOWN good ground. Turn the key on and after the timeout (about a minute) you should see continuity. If you don't, do the same thing at the connector A7/C2 of the RIM.

    You have already established the motor runs when you grounded T10 at the ELC relay with the key on, that means everything in the circuit from there on is okay. In other words, when you grounded T10 at the ELC relay you effectively eliminated the RIM, which tells you the problem is before the pin T10.

    If you were to ground the connector (disconnect from the RIM) A7/C2 at the RIM and the compressor runs, you have narrowed it down to the RIM and/or the RIMs ground.

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    Red face Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Fortunately this isn't a critical issue (but I do need it done by the summer for a cross country road trip!), so while somewhat frustrating I certainly appreciate the knowledge of experience.
    There is NO substitute.

    Done with tests for this weekend. May get a chance during the week otherwise it's next weekend...

    So I have this ahead:
    testing the ground @ T10 after initial Key ON
    testing of the connector A7/C2 of the RIM - where is this?
    Is the RIM in the trunk, mounted to the back of the rear passenger's seat? (I suspected I saw it when I was mounting the rear dampers).

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFart View Post
    You have already established the motor runs when you grounded T10 at the ELC relay with the key on, that means everything in the circuit from there on is okay. In other words, when you grounded T10 at the ELC relay you effectively eliminated the RIM, which tells you the problem is before the pin T10.


    Your making progress and getting an education as well!
    Your just going to need to troubleshoot back from t10 towards the RIM and figure out why the RIM isn't supplying the needed ground.
    thedill and thedill like this.

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by thedill View Post
    RIM - where is this?[/FONT] Is the RIM in the trunk, mounted to the back of the rear passenger's seat? (I suspected I saw it when I was mounting the rear dampers).
    That is correct. Keep us posted on the results.

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    Re: 2005 DeVille Rear Shocks, just replaced & got some questions

    Will A7 / C2 be clearly labeled? Or can I get a little guidance?
    Thanks again, guys.

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