Considering going back to a Deville from my Beloved V4P Fleetwood?

[N0DIH]

Ok, as some of you know, I drive a lot of miles a year and with gas prices out of hand, I am thinking of selling my 80 Turbo T/A and my 94 Fleetwood and getting a 2000-2005 Deville, preferably a DHS, but the other car in mind is a 98-up Park Avenue/Park Ave Ultra.

Ok, stuck with a need for 6 pass seating (meaning 6 seat belts) Ranger mentioned the 2000-up cars are technically a 5 pass and don't have a seat belt for the middle front. Was that a DHS thing only and Devilles have it?

Is there a reason to go with the Buford over a Cadillac?

mpg is important, looking to get in the mid 20's combo, higher the better. My FW is a tow package car and never has got that good, 22 best. But 3.42's and the LT1 torque sure is fun....
6 pass seating is mandatory. No if ands and buts. Well, 6 butts....

Thoughts? Any other rides I should consider? I do have a strict budget and car payments are not an option...

No rice burners, might consider a beer burner, but that would be hard to accept too, I want my $$ supporting my country somehow...

[misfit6794]

Personally I would opt for the park avenue, the 3.8L engine is probably one of the best made by gm ever, and its suprisingly good on gas, even with the supercharger. Not to mention you can really mod it out if you get the urge. A park ave will also be alot cheaper to purchase and maintain than a deville.

[derrty_deville]

Its a better idea to get the caddy instead of the PA. 6 asses in a Buick doesnt sound like a good idea. But I would think it a better idea to keep the fleetwood for when you need to seat six and tow.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by derrty_deville

Its a better idea to get the caddy instead of the PA. 6 asses in a Buick doesnt sound like a good idea. But I would think it a better idea to keep the fleetwood for when you need to seat six and tow.

Agreed.......the 3.8L may be pretty stout, but in a car the size of a PA, throwing in 6 people doesn't really sound all that good to me either.....

[96Fleetwood]

Don't sell the Turbo T/A! Their value has gone $$$$$ in the last 3 years!

[MisterBlue]

If you're looking for comfort for 6 passengers, you'll need to give up on the car idea. Days of the huge boulevard cruisers are gone, and even the Caddies and Buicks and big Mercs are a cramp for 6 people. They're okay for kids and short jaunts, though.

[N0DIH]

Well, we have 4 kids, 6, 8, 12 and 13 and my wife and I. The FW is ok, but still only for short trips... Which is why it isn't he daily driver for all of us the 99 454 Burban is.... 8 with ease, we really wanted the front leather heated bench, but that is pretty rare.... If I thought I could do the mpg of a NBS truck with a 5.3L I would. But the whole idea is much improved mpg while still keeping a 6 pass in a crunch capability.

This is a real pain of a decision. Spending this much to get better mpg, and with my sort of a drive, having the smaller engine is more sensible, as well as a 1000 lb lighter car... They both add up to better mpg.

I have pondered keeping the FW and work on the TTA and get the 301 Turbo back up and running with a 200 4R and 3.42's and EFI it.... But alas, all costs money and time. Neither which I have much of with a 3 hour daily drive....

Got any picts of the wagon inside? How does it seat 8? Rear facing seat? Any cargo room with the rear seat used?

[96Fleetwood]

The wagon has a split bench seat in the front just like the Fleetwood. There are three seat belts in the second row and two seat belts in the last row.

There is minimal storage when all the seats up, there are plenty of cubbies and a locked box back there. Plenty of room available when only the second row is used and if all seats are down it can hold quite a bit.

I do not have any pics of all the seats up in my wagon (I drive with the seats down).

The Limited Roadmaster wagons ('95 & '96) had heated seats as an option. Mine has the premium sound with CD & Cassette, not bad for stock.


Here are some pics I found on the internet:












This is my third Roadmaster wagon. My current one cost me the most (~$5,700 when all was said and done) because of the modifications but the 1996 woody Limited I had with 95k miles cost me only $3,500. I had a Caprice wagon as well, but it lacks the nicer interior and vista roof.

You are more than welcome to drive mine anytime. I am working up in Elgin until the end of May.

Take care,
Elias

[dirt_cheap_fleetwood]

I agree with 96Fleetwood. Go with a wagon if you can find one. I don't know how you feel about Dodge, but I really like the Magnums. They aren't all gas hogs either; you can get them with a 6 cylinder. My friend's dad has a '94 Taurus wagon. Its got nearly 220,000 miles but runs like a champ. You can fit 6 people comfortably and 7 if you squeeze 3 across in the middle seat.

[N0DIH]

But I am concerned that Dodge still doesn't have GM quality... Not when compared to a 3800 or LT1....And it is still a Dodge!

The other thing is I am wanting to lean tuning the 3800 and 3800 SC. I have got a lot of learning on the LT1. So doing the L67 would be a new learning experience....And I have all the tools to do it right now. The * I don't, and no one else commercially does. (ok, there is a way, but I am not ready for it...).

I just need better mpg (still 6 seats), and the 3800 has nearly if not better reliability as the LT1.

Where I sit...
I need tires (snows gotta come off....)
Rust fixing.... (over right rear tire, edge of hood and rear bumper)
Mufflers (they are stockkers....)
Fix turn signal arm (just broke, I musta kneed it...)
Got to fix a headlight bulb I messed with on a failed H4 conversion I was trying to do.
2 manifold bolts broken
Front control arm bushings and ball joints, probably steering damper too (shocks are new)
And I have 249800 miles....
I get 19-19.5 mpg on gas, 15.5-17.7 on E85. Not bad, but still expensive. 22 is tops.
But I have a tow package, which is a serious one....


So I am figuring I need a good $1K or more to drop in to it, maybe more like $1500. If I can get some Impala SS wheels, $2K easy.... But I do want them.

I just need to get the monthly costs down, fuel is kicking my pocket book to the tune of if it keeps up I am going to risk my job over it. This is just plain stupid at the pump.

Currently it costs me $0.1636 a mile on E85, and $0.1973 on 87 octane.
The estimated costs on the 3800 SC is $0.1463 a mile to drive on 93 octane, and if I drop in some 60 # injectors, and run E85, that would be around $0.1125 a mile to drive.
It adds up with me driving 35K a year or more. And if I can get mpg like a lot of these guys are on the 3800 SC's, I can do even better yet.

WBBM had a report from some bozo claiming $7 a gallon by 2011..... WTF? That would nearly double my daily driving costs. A car with better mpg would help, and if I could get more work from home, then even better savings.....

It is simply economics.... And It sucks.... If you know the area, I drive from Rockford (real close to the mall in Cherry Valley) to Libertyville (US45 and Winchester road, just south of 137, and just north of 176....) daily. If I drive I90, 75 miles each way. I get better mpg, if no traffic, easier drive. If I take back roads, I get less cruise time, I zig zag back and forth for 65 miles each way. I can narrow it down to 57 miles, but it takes me 2 hours to do it, 30-40 AVERAGE SPEED over that distance, aka, 176, it sucks bad that way.

[96Fleetwood]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DHS-D...QQcmdZViewItem

I understand your position, but to really make a difference in your pocket book the Northstar and 3800 is pretty pointless and will not save you much. You will save maybe a $500 a year if that. To make a huge difference you need something that gets 30-35 mpg on the highway, none of those vehicles do that. Just add it up, I have done this myself a couple times and the savings were not that impressive.


I think your Fleetwood is tired. It has a quarter of a million miles and has probably paid for itself many times over. The tow package is great if you tow, but really hurts the fuel economy with that gear ratio.

Here is some estimated annual fuel costs (fueleconomy.gov):

Cadillac Fleetwood
8 cyl, 5.7 L, Automatic 4-spd, Regular 15 24 $2827


Cadillac DeVille
8 cyl, 4.6 L, Automatic 4-spd, Premium 15 25 $2848


Buick Park Avenue
6 cyl, 3.8 L, Automatic 4-spd, Regular 17 27 $2543


Buick Park Avenue
6 cyl, 3.8 L SC, Automatic 4-spd, Premium 16 25 $2848

Buick Roadmaster Wagon
8 cyl, 5.7 L, Automatic 4-spd, Regular 15 24 $2827


For 15,000 miles a year it adds up to virtually no difference between a LT1, 3800 SC, or Northstar. A normally aspirated 3800 will save you a couple hundred, but is that worth it?

Your Fleetwood is recording pretty bad gas mileage. I have the 2.93 rear in my wagon and I am getting around 4 mpg better than you on the highway with 87 octane. Is your driving style aggressive?


Is there a reason why you live so far away from work? That would be the best way to save money IMO.
Just my .02$

[dirt_cheap_fleetwood]

No ebay. Take a look around on craigslist. If only I had the $4500. http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/car/656569640.html

[96Fleetwood]

Originally Posted by dirt_cheap_fleetwood

No ebay. Take a look around on craigslist. If only I had the $4500. http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/car/656569640.html

I looked at that Fleetwood on Sunday. It has two huge dents on the passenger side front door. The A/C does not work and it was not garage kept. Sad...

[N0DIH]

I actually have 3.08's in there now, the factory axle is in the backyard waiting to get rebuilt with a posi. I am not overly leadfooted, but I do keep up with traffic (probably enough of leadfooting for that...). So often I will drive on cruise @ 65 and still I don't see anything stellar. I drove from Darien, WI to the Dells, strict 65 mph (night, light traffic) and STILL only got high 21's.

So many of the 3800 SC owners are claiming they get 27-31 on the highway. It is pretty rare to get a LT1 owner to get over 25.

I agree, mine is probably tired (you wouldn't know by driving it, pulls like a freight train, 15.3 @ 93 on TTS Datamaster....)

I am still looking into the datalogs, The area it seems to level some before it comes back up is the injectors approaching 85% duty cycle, they are still too small, so I may still be on the lean side when on the loud pedal... No evidence of lean yet, but still I know it should be....

That was a soft launch, as TTS Datamaster is easily fooled by wheelspin so I had to baby it to not spin at ALL. Look at the power dropoff over 5000 rpm, which is why I don't like the LT1 B/D cam.... Too small. New springs might help, but not as much as it should.




I'll be honest, the FW is a LOT more fun to drive and mod. The Buick, well, it is a FWD Buick....

I found some Edelbrock LT1 B/D headers for $250 on craigslist (Chicago or Rockford, might be Madison or Milwaukee) new. (keep looking ,I didn't buy them!) and if I could do the heads over with higher compression and some porting might prove a nice improvement in power and mpg. But it takes time, and money, and time is the hardest with my drive for me to get....

Attached is a SS of my cost analysis (I can send if anyone wants to play with it... It it just a spreadsheet) As you can see, my problem is megamiles.... It is like I drive city driving to St. Louis and back every week....

[I~LUV~Caddys8792]

I could see you in a Park Avenue Ultra, not so much a deVille.