2001 DeVille base LD8(?) Engine Failure, Compression Loss

[dodge4x4man]

My parents purchased this car new at the end of the 2001 model year (in mid 2001). The car has always been schedule maintained by the local Cadillac dealer.... All the recommended maintenance! They drove it mostly for pleasure, but did make once (or twice, occasionally) monthly trips on the Interstate of 170 to 250 miles, round-trip. So, the engine had city driving as well as highway miles on it (about 70/30). My father worried about being 2 miles past the recommended oil change interval....! It has never been abused, never overheated, wrecked, kicked or punched!!! In other words this car should have been a cream puff, immaculately maintained with only 33,000 miles ( yes 33K) on it!

They had an extended dealer warranty which ran out (age wise, I guess) about a year ago. Two days ago my father got in it to run an errand to the store and it started, but was running rough (no check engine lights). He took it immediately to the dealer about 5 miles away. The dealer performed various tests (so they told me via phone), was stumped, and finally did a compression check on each cylinder. The number 7 cylinder had no compression at all!! Obviously, a severe mechanical failure in that part the engine... I thought, how do you get a piston or cylinder wall crack, or camshaft (end) failure at 33K miles? http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ilies/hmmm.gif I doubt it's the head gasket because the car has never been driven hard, or as I said above, never overheated.. The car has never lacked for anything.... It's never been farther than 250 miles from their home (or less) and is usually garaged. They live in SW Florida, so it's never really been in the cold either!!

The dealer wants $1500 to pull the engine, and then come up with a complete diagnosis and repair path/cost. I've read in other places on the INet that this type of failure may not be very repairable. My parents have no warranty anymore, although I find that hard to believe.. My 2002 Dodge Ram Turbo diesel 4x4 I bought new in November of 2001 had a full powertrain warranty from the factory to 6 years (Nov. 2008) or 100K miles (early last year). I haven't seen the fine print on my parents' contract. My mom contacted GM and they have said they have something called "dealer assistance" that may help some how to absorb repair costs for some Cadillac owners.

My conclusion was get a decent running engine of the same vintage from the salvage yard and just swap it. I have not investigated the cost of that yet.

My parents are both in their 70s and are on a limited income. They bought the car brand new after they traded in a mid-90s Caddy (Fleetwood, maybe?.. I don't remember exactly) which they bought used, with low mileage (actually about the same mileage used as this one has now!!!). They have been pleased with Cadillac up till now. Any help or ideas??? Anybody have a similar experience?

Unfortunately I am 1800 miles away, but last time I drove the car at Christmas, it sounded mechanically fine and drove great. I have been working on cars since I was 14. What could cause a catastrophic engine failure at such low mileage? Has anyone on the forum experienced this?

Any help would be appreciated.

Dodge4x4man

[BlackCaddy87]

Maybe just a stuck valve. I'd take it somewhere else.

Also sounds like they're too easy on it. Tell them to put her through here paces every once in awhile, it's good for her plus she likes it

[Lithorian]

stuck valve sounds reasonable, catastrophic failure is very rare only other thing i can think of, would be a horribly blown head gasket, or a warp in the cylinder, but very doubtfull, they need to take it somewhere and have the valve cover pulled.

[Crown Vic Owner]

I thought these motors were interference motors, aka a valve would be through the piston.

[LCLCLC]

Running rough could be many things, many of which could be reasonable to fix.

No compression - I don't have much to say about this. Except - If this was my car, I definitely would take it to another mechanic to verify the no/low compression on No 7.

I read a lot of Northstar message forums, and I really can't remember anyone posting a no compression failure at this low of milage. The heads on Northstars are usually pretty bulletproof.

[Crown Vic Owner]

Actually, i was confused, is there ANY warranty on the car, i got the drift that you were suggesting there was.


Get another mechanic to check this out for sure.

[dodge4x4man]

Thanks for the extra sets of eyes! I guess I made the assumption (wrongly) that the dealer had pulled the valve cover to determine valve action on that cylinder before moving on to pull the engine. Pulling the valve cover would have been the first thing I would have done. Maybe they did do this, but the service manager did not tell me if that's what his mechanic did during his diagnosis. He seemed to be leaning towrd the catastrophic failure scenario - a cracked piston or cracked cylinder - which made no sense to me! I am not in control of this situation because I am too far away and only talking via phone, usually after some action has been taken, so I am almost always behind the curve.

My question to the forum is: Since this is a tranverse mounted engine, is there enough room to pull the head on the odd bank without removing the engine? I can't remember which side, odd or even is against the firewall, or how much room there is to work in the engine compartment - I'm used to working on pickup trucks lately (although I do own a V6 Fiero GT where changing the sparkplugs on the firewall side is always fun!). If the odd bank is against the firewall, I could perhaps see why they would want to pull the engine - for lack of room to do the work easily. However, if it's on the front side toward the radiator (which they may have had to remove to pull the engine, anyway), then I would think pulling the radiator would leave them enough room to pull that head. I'm going to poke around online to see if I can find an engine compartment diagram so I can figure this out. If anyone can answer that would be great!

As of this morning, the dealer has pulled the engine ($1500) and has discovered ...duh.... a broken intake valve spring on #7. Their plan is to replace the valve and the spring... My questions for them are: Did the valve stick and break the spring, or was the spring simply defective from the factory and it just broke, coincidently, the other day? Is the cam lobe damaged from the stuck valve? Is the valve guide damaged? I guess these are questions I need to ask today.

Again, the warranty has supposedly run out on this car (even though it only has 33K miles and is not yet 7 years since they bought it!!)

Any insights would be greatly appreciated. The total bill is up to $2700 now with the valve spring replacment. Am I missing anything else obvious? (besides the huge bill??)

Thanks!

Dodge4x4man

[BlackCaddy87]

I hate dealers..

[Lithorian]

dude dealers suck, and they take advantage of older people, i have a car 150 thousand miles on it with original valve springs, this had to have been a factory defect and as such the deadler should eat this job, get on the phone with the dealer and simpley ream them out, if u get no where with it get in touch with GM, there is no reason in the world why a valve spring should have broken on it at 33k and there is no reason in the world why they couldnt have pulled the valve cover for number 7 with the motor in the car,.

[codewize]

I agree with the above. The worst thing you can do to a N* is drive it like a grocery getter. It needs to be run hard once in a while. Seriously it's actually part of the maintenance to perform WOT once in a while.

A dirty TB will cause rough idle as well. Should be cleaned every 30k or something I think.

[dodge4x4man]

[LCLCLC]

Broken valve spring.

I don't know where number 7 is. If it was the front, I think the valve cover could have been removed without pulling the motor.

Don't have the head removed. If you do, in almost all cases the bolt threads will strip just unscrewing them. Then you are into Timeserting that head. If you take one head off, I would take both off and Timesert both heads, especially since you already have the motor out. No future head gasket failures after that.

Hopefully that valve can be fixed from the top, and he car can be put back together and run for a long time.

[dodge4x4man]

The next installment - My mom talked to GM national customer service on the 800 number and got them involved - the dealer to ate the labor cost. Now the cost is $702 or something like that. They still have no reasoning as to why the spring broke. I talked to them directly, and they said the valve was not stuck - it moved smoothly up and down in the guide when the removed the head and looked at it. So apparently the valve didn't stick and break the spring.. the spring just broke.. bad metal or something. They had to pull the engine to get at it as the odd cylinder bank was against the firewall, and there was no room to pull the head - that's what I reasoned from memory, and so it was OK (except for the cost, which they have now eliminated) as far as that goes.

They SAID they inspected the top of the piston, and the cam lobe, for damage, and found nothing, no deposits either - that's good! What they are going to do is replace the valve and the guide and put the head back on with a new gasket - whatever parts are involved cost $702(?), which I still don't like, but it's way better than the $2700 they quoted me yesterday morning. I still think Cadillac should eat the whole cost because the spring was most likely bad from the factory to break like that for no reason.

They had to replace the battery a couple of months ago, and before that the only thing was an ignition coil in early 2006, which was done under warranty. That's the extent of any maintenance issues other than tires (because of age cracks and a bad alignment that Iwas not there to catch - they had plenty of tread left) and normal oil changes at 3500 miles (not the 7500 to 10K the GM manual says)

They will warranty the work for 1 year, which with my parents is maybe 5 or 6 thousand miles. My mom railed with the dealer about re-instating the 70,000 mile warranty because the car had so few miles on it, but so far that hasn't gotten anywhere. I am hoping that GM regional/national will do something to cover the car for the next couple of years. My dad is losing confidence in Cadillac. He kept his last one for 6 years and about 60,000 miles or so before he traded it for the 2001 (new) that is the subject of this post.

Stay tuned I'll let you all know how it finishes - the car is supposed to be done Tuesday or Wednesday.

Thanks for you insight and support.

Dodge4x4man

[LCLCLC]

Ok, they pulled the motor.

Did they pull the head?

If so, did they Timesert the head bolts?

If they pulled the head, the Timesert operation SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE! If they did not, they will be very lucky to even get all the headbolts torqued down to the correct tension without pulling the threads out. I know, there was re-design on the motor and headbolts in 2000, but from what I've read in here, I would not trust a removed head unless it was Timeserted.

If they removed the head, and the car runs ok (overheating means the new gasket on the removed head is failed), I would sure as heck trade this car before that one year warranty they are given is up. I would also want this warranty in writting.

[CadillacSTS2003]

i see no reason why they had to pull the engine to replace the spring
and no reason to pull the head in order to replace it especially