A lot less black soot in the tailpipe with w4m tune

[LITTLEELVISDAN]

Originally Posted by Short-Throw

I still challenge anybody with a tuned only V, to come out to Autobahn and run against my bone stock V and prove any significant gain, if at all.


Mike

Mike, comparing 2 different drivers, 2 different cars isn't where the proof is.
.
I put to you if you drove 3 laps with your stock car and then drove YOUR car 3 laps tuned with 30 more HP and 30 more lbs tq and better shifting transmission, you are telling me you couldn't better your own lap times? I'm betting you could

[CIWS]

Originally Posted by wait4me

I would love to go to the autobahn, How about this, I bring a driver with me. Ill bring a stock part modified tuned auto with me and he drives, and if he wins you pay all my travel expenses and getting the car over and back. If i loose ill pay yours..

To be fair you need to also let him know your racing team has a sniper

[jvp]

Originally Posted by CIWS

To be fair you need to also let him know your racing team has a sniper

Mike's team has one, too...

This is hanging in my office :-)

[anonfrank]

Oh, SNAP. It's on.

Seriously, this is a great debate for the great unwashed with Vs to see as we are considering mods. I know I'm seriously considering the handheld, myself. Perhaps the best place to sort this out IS the track, and I'd love to see it happen, with vids. It would only be educational for us all.

[Short-Throw]

Originally Posted by LITTLEELVISDAN

Mike, comparing 2 different drivers, 2 different cars isn't where the proof is.

Great post, thank you! This was not my suggestion, it was wait4me.

I couldn't agree with you more!

I had absolutely no intention of making this a driver's contest, that would prove nothing, and surely there are plenty of drivers faster than me. For example. I will be driving with Andy Pilgrim this weekend. His time would surely not be beat by anybody so that would simply be ridiculous to have such data input.

Frankly, I'm quite surprised Jesse even suggested such a test which would obviously add another variable skewing results.

Originally Posted by LITTLEELVISDAN

.
I put to you if you drove 3 laps with your stock car and then drove YOUR car 3 laps tuned with 30 more HP and 30 more lbs tq and better shifting transmission, you are telling me you couldn't better your own lap times? I'm betting you could

To clarify, my thought was to have the same competent driver operate both vehicles back to back. That could be me or anybody else.

I'm not saying that increased HP and TQ would not make a difference. I'm saying that there is a big difference between 'claimed HP increase' and what that same vehicle will do in real world conditions.

I can't tell you how many people I meet when I instruct, cannot figure out why their car isn't faster because they had a dyno sheet suggesting it was.

Dyno's are tuning tools, not measuring sticks.

I would love to see proof that I'm wrong. I've already conducted many tests with friends and their 'tuned only' Z06's versus mine the past two years as they wanted to know the real truth. We ran full lap sessions and rolling 20-150mph distances. There was no material difference.

I have been in enough cars to question whether you can really feel an extra 25 HP when you're already at such a high number as 556 to start with. Adding 25 HP to Miata would be night and day, not to a CTS-V.

I love options to advance our cars, I just feel that we haven't seen any supported real world evidence with tunes only, and the potential cost and risk doesn't seem to be worth it.

Anyone that has visited and walked through Wixom knows what I'm talking about.

I'd like to see Jesse offer more of a track setup, like intake, headers and removing cats with his tune, that seems more plausible, but not street legal.

It's not as much fun and doesn't carry too much weight in bench racing, but driving lessons are the sure way to make your car go faster.


Mike

[jvp]

Originally Posted by Short-Throw

It's not as much fun and doesn't carry too much weight in bench racing, but driving lessons are the sure way to make your car go faster.

What dope are YOU smoking? Not as much fun?!

(I know what you meant... I'm kidding. )

I'll further what Mike said. Jesse (or any other tuner, for that matter) could really help the track dogs by coming up with:
- an aftermarket differential cooler that doesn't cost thousands of dollars
- high-quality, robust 2-piece rotors (for at least the front)
- a harness installation kit that still allows the use of the back seats (way hard)
...

Note I mentioned nothing about power or torque outputs. :-) There's no such thing as "too much HP," but there is such a thing as learning how to deal with the HP that one has under foot. And the stock V is an enormous well of grunt, right from the factory.

jas

[Razorecko]

I think an important point is that Jesse is not going to over load the stock system with hp/tq from his tune. It wont be some ridiculous amount of strain to the stock system. Most of the benefit will come from fixed code and more predictable shifting. Real benefits come from tunes when you do get headers, intake, exhaust, etc as these all will put the oem tune into unfamiliar performance levels. Good points by everone though

[Short-Throw]

Originally Posted by Razorecko

strain to the stock system.

Razor,

There is simply is no way of guaranteeing this. Again, all I am asking for is supported data that suggests otherwise. What testing has been done to show there will be no adverse effects? GM spent years of R&D building this engine, long before anybody knew there would even be a V2 and has given us a warranty that will most likely outlive the term most of us will own the car for. I took delivery of the first car just before Thanksgiving, making these cars 5 month's on the market, not exactly a long term testing period.

Please explain the rationale for GM not delivering more HP and better gas mileage than already presented, if all it really would have taken is a few computer tweaks. Does anybody honestly feel they couldn't figure it out? That's simply an inane thought.


Get this car doing full time track duty and I'm all for giving Jesse a call.



Mike

[CIWS]

Originally Posted by jvp

Mike's team has one, too...

This is hanging in my office :-)

Snipe with a pistol ?

[jvp]

Originally Posted by CIWS

Snipe with a pistol ?

No, friend, that was with a very, very accurate rifle.

jas

[Razorecko]

Hey Mike we can all agree that anything that increases the performance of a vehicle that has unmodified stock internals will most likely see a decrease in engine life. Most likely its something a huge majority of owners wont run into. If the engine goes at 140,000 miles instead of 115,000 because of an aggressive tune than most of us wouldn't be able to tell over the long period and the benefit would outweight the consequence. Would gm be able to create a motor that only lasts 90k miles with much greater performance ? of course they would. Car companies are still business's so they generally want to create the safest, most durable product that can achieve a certain level of performance at a certain budget. Could gm have thrown us the LS9's pistons ?? Heck yea ! - but why ? over several thousands of cars the price would have added up for them. Do we think it would have been a good idea ?!? of course we do and would have paid for the difference.

[wait4me]

I would say the dampner isolator spring in between the blower snout and the rotor gear assembly will be the major fail point on this car. WAY before any internal motor part failures.

Not sure what gm was thinking when they put a Hardend Spring to rub on a NON hardened shaft.. Then put a tsb saying the bad noise was normal.. HMMM I have solid couplers that i have now and the noises are gone, and zero issues now. Well besides what metal is missing from when i had the stock on in its place.

[Hogg]

Originally Posted by Short-Throw

Razor,



Please explain the rationale for GM not delivering more HP and better gas mileage than already presented, if all it really would have taken is a few computer tweaks. Does anybody honestly feel they couldn't figure it out? That's simply an inane thought.

Mike

HP- its common to keep engine output reduced when a new product is released. It gives the company something to attract repeat customers.

Husband: I want the new 2012 CTSV.
Wife: Why, we are still paying for the 2009 CTSV in the driveway?
Husband: But the 2012 CTS_V now has 590hp.


There are a lot of guys here who assume that all aftermarket tuning is good for is power gains. That is actually a small part of a full tune. There are many other factors which affect a vehicles accelaration. They arent shown on any dyno though. 1/4 mile speeds and ETs are a great indicator if done back to back under similar conditions.

Simply take a CTS V to a 1/4 mile track. Do stock tune runs, and aftermarket tune runs. Then compare the time sheets.
These 1/4 mile can be applied to many driving conditions. Roadracing is a bunch of acceleration and deceleration cycles bound together with corners.

As with anything, its a fine balance between engine output and durability. PCM tuning, if done properly, wouldnt substantially reduce durability. If you are running the ragged edge with a "white-hot" tune, then of course drability can suffer.


peace
Hog

[wait4me]

I found something funny. Goto http://tis2web.service.gm.com/tis2web

Then type in this vin number. 1GCCS19x1t8193827.

Then select PCM then hit next.

Then hit complete history. Then look down at the bottom where it says "16227399 N/A Calibration change to reduce soot in the exhaust gas "

wrong car type, but ive seen them make fixes.

[Vlakaz]

Originally Posted by anonfrank

Oh, SNAP. It's on.

Seriously, this is a great debate for the great unwashed with Vs to see as we are considering mods. I know I'm seriously considering the handheld, myself. Perhaps the best place to sort this out IS the track, and I'd love to see it happen, with vids. It would only be educational for us all.

Doesn't anyone have the auto with tune only and auto stock they can film vs each other? Auto will be the better test to see if tune only makes a diffrerence or not since manual introduces too many driver variables.

Get two autos, one stock one with tune at a standstill and mash on the gas and see which one pulls ahead. Do the same from 40mph or 60mph and again see if there is an advantage.

Now that would make a good video.