Buying CTS-V with GM 's Bankruptcy Potential?

[Vrocks]

Originally Posted by CIWS

How about any "loan" to the big three comes with a stipulation that any actual taxpayer who filed a return and actually paid into the tax base can purchase ANY 1 automobile they sell at dealer invoice. Everyone still makes money, and the average joe taxpayer gets a good deal on one car they sell if done in the next three years. That gives enough time for those who just got into one to pay it down, finish most leases, and for the alternative fuel cars like the Volt to get to market.

That sounds good or something like this: offering tax incentives for buying American made cars (around $5,000).

[demorgan59]

[quote=caddiedrummer;1687316]He is either deceitful, naive or both.

That would be both.

[Vrocks]

Originally Posted by caddiedrummer

The problem is the same people who caused the problem are trying to fix. What did Harry Reid say yesterday something like we could fix (the car industry) overnight with the stroke of a pen . He is either deceitful, naive or both.

If you give GM or Ford $50 or $100 billion they will just burn through it. I hate to say it they either need to figure it out on their own or take 11. If you do it for them where does it stop and it becomes totally unfair. Also down the road any time GM is in crisis they will just firgure the tax payer will bail them out.

I will admit GM has tried and I like Wagoner (he went to our rival HS here in Richmond and played B-ball) But, the company has reacted too slowly and been way behind the quality curve. Just when it has almost caught up they are on the brink--true irony.

How about a 5% tax break for anyone buying a car before end of 08??

The idiots running wallstreet and our banks are to blame for this, along with the federal gov, and people that took mortages they can't afford (and are now moving to Texas).

They couldn't turn things around with the UAW a whole lot faster than they did. The company is on target to post profits starting midway through 2010. They're getting screwed over by the credit crunch caused by poorly managed banks. GM is one company that I believe will actually be able to pay back a loan by 2015, unlike the shit bags Fannie, Freddie, AIG, etc... (of course they can't go under either).

New vehicles from GM have excellent quality, so I don't know what would bring you to say otherwise. Have you owned a BMW or Mercedes lately or have a friend with one? Heck even Toyota's transmissions and engines are total shit right now but they keep it quiet.

CH 11 would be nice in an ideal world but things are far from ideal right now.

Get your facts straight before you start spouting off, especially in a Cadillac forum.

[caddiedrummer]

Originally Posted by Vrocks

The idiots running wallstreet and our banks are to blame for this, along with the federal gov, and people that took mortages they can't afford (and are now moving to Texas).

They couldn't turn things around with the UAW a whole lot faster than they did. The company is on target to post profits starting midway through 2010. They're getting screwed over by the credit crunch caused by poorly managed banks. GM is one company that I believe will actually be able to pay back a loan by 2015, unlike the shit bags Fannie, Freddie, AIG, etc... (of course they can't go under either).

New vehicles from GM have excellent quality, so I don't know what would bring you to say otherwise. Have you owned a BMW or Mercedes lately or have a friend with one? Heck even Toyota's transmissions and engines are total shit right now but they keep it quiet.

CH 11 would be nice in an ideal world but things are far from ideal right now.

Get your facts straight before you start spouting off, especially in a Cadillac forum.

Wow, Vrocks , take a deep breath. I actaully agree with your first 2 paragraghs. But as far as my facts, in the last 5 years, I have owned 2 Vettes, 4 Vipers, 7 Hondas (kids/wife) 2 Fords, and 4 Caddies including an XLR and XLR-V, as well as an 06 BMW M5. I can provide the dealer sevice sheets if you like, but my Hondas and Bimmer have been a lot less trouble free than the GM, Dodges and Fords.

Also, as I said if you were reading closely GM quality has gotten much better. I can buy almost any car I want and I would rather have a Caddy than a Bimmer or Mercedes. But, I am a realist. The M5 build quality, etc has been much better than my Caddies. I will still buy a Caddy.

A bailout ain't gonna help GM--just my opinion . It just puts off the inevitable. My family has owned Caddies since the late 30s so don't take umbrage--I am not a Euro snob--just the opposite.

[Vrocks]

Originally Posted by caddiedrummer

Wow, Vrocks , take a deep breath. I actaully agree with your first 2 paragraghs. But as far as my facts, in the last 5 years, I have owned 2 Vettes, 4 Vipers, 7 Hondas (kids/wife) 2 Fords, and 4 Caddies including an XLR and XLR-V, as well as an 06 BMW M5. I can provide the dealer sevice sheets if you like, but my Hondas and Bimmer have been a lot less trouble free than the GM, Dodges and Fords.

Also, as I said if you were reading closely GM quality has gotten much better. I can buy almost any car I want and I would rather have a Caddy than a Bimmer or Mercedes. But, I am a realist. The M5 build quality, etc has been much better than my Caddies. I will still buy a Caddy.

A bailout ain't gonna help GM--just my opinion . It just puts off the inevitable. My family has owned Caddies since the late 30s so don't take umbrage--I am not a Euro snob--just the opposite.

Maybe your Hondas have been better (I'd take one over a Toyota any day) but every BMW experience I've had or a friend has had, was full of technical problems. Also, I wouldn't lump Dodge and Ford in with GM - then again maybe there's the odd chance that your GM vehicles had more problems than the other 2.

I was pissed when you said loaning them money is a waste. The fact of the matter is, GM (not sure about Ford or Chrysler) was on target to reduce union and pension costs. This would allow them to be profitable and to make even better cars than they can now.

I'd like to see them file ch 11 and re-structure with DIP financing and get another $25 billion to shore up the pension trust fund. The problem is, it doesn't look like that would happen in this environment, so a $25 billion loan buys time to get the 2010 plan online and then go from there.

There's no way the economy can take a GM CH11 hit, especially if it were to go south and turn into a CH 7... We're all reading the forecasts for 2009 and it's bad, yet those reports aren't planning on a GM collapse which would hammer other auto makers when suppliers go under as well.

[Uncle Meat]

I don't know guys... I'm really getting sick & tired of seeing my tax dollars being used to bail out others due to bad business practices.

U.M.

[Cadillac Tony]

For the last time people, GM is asking for LOANS, which they would pay back- not a bailout. No one seemed to care when the Government gave loans to the Airlines after 9/11, but I guess that's because you can't just drive up the street to a foreign airline after the American ones go out of business

Incidentally- the Government backed loans for the airlines actually turned a $300M profit for the Government in less than two years. Giving a loan to the world's largest carmaker could actually turn out to be a great way for the Government to generate some funds to use toward other areas of the budget that need attention.

Wall Street journal Article HERE

[cjwolverine]

LOANS are great when people pay them back. Unpaid LOANS is what got us in this mess. What I gather many are saying is that Bankrupcy now without a loan saves a bad loan from happening. The fear is that the loan is given and bankruptcy happens anyway and the loan isn't paid back which is obviously worse than the loan never happening at all. I think we all know its a LOAN, the question is the ability to pay it back. Those who have posted against the bailout have fears that without major changes, GM can't pay it back. Yes they have made strides, but bandaids don't work on cancer.

Do you trust that the people running the show can turn it around? If so great. I for one live right down the road from Bob Lutz. I get to see him fly his fighter jet on joyrides over my house, over the golf course and all over Ann Arbor nearly every weekend in the summer. It probably costs $10k in jet fuel just to get it off the ground. Don't blame the fat cats on Wall Street. There are some pretty fat cats in Michigan on Jefferson Ave. who have run this company into the ground while they pad their wallets.

If they are burning 2.5 billion per month now, what indication do you have that they will stop burning it when it's in the form of a loan? Don't fill lots full of cars people are not buying and then tug on our heart strings to do the right thing and buy American. Whether or not the quality is there (we can debate that forever), they are making too many. Supply and Demand is the easiest equation around and yet the largest company in the world can't get a handle on it. We either don't want to buy your cars, can't afford to buy your cars, or want to buy your cars at a lower cost. Any way you slice it, you have made too many cars for us to absorb. Too many people are working at a wage far exceding the value they are adding to the car, and too many executives are flying in jets the company can't afford.

I agree the consequences would be terrible, but the excess finally caught up with them. If the union was dissolved and people rehired at a reasonable wage and were accountable for their actions they may have a chance. So can they pay the loan back? That's the real question.

Sorry for the long post. I'm still hear to learn about the V. I hope things look better next year. I'm a little afraid to buy one till some of these questions are answered.

No disrespect intended Tony, I'm just adding to the debate. I don't have enough info to guess what may happen. I can only watch and see how it plays out. I hope they are around. I hope it works out. And I hope to have V in my driveway when the snow melts in Michigan next spring.

cj

[erp2863]

Originally Posted by cjwolverine

Too many people are working at a wage far exceding the value they are adding to the car, and too many executives are flying in jets the company can't afford.

cj

I love that line.

I see Chapter 11, selling/killing brands/models at all NA plants except the ones making the Silverado, Corvette and soon to be Volt, re-negotiating the union contracts with the remaining employees, and concentrating on operations in China, South America, and Europe. I'd also be lobbying for the franchise laws to be repealed to enable direct sales.

At least this is what I would do....

[MSOsr]

Think about what the fair tax could do for GM. If GM weren't saddled with FICA, income taxes and other taxes (for their employees and suppliers) to stick into its cost of production, how attractive would its cars be overseas? If union workers received paychecks equal to the gross amount of their salaries/hourly pay, couldn't they provide more for their own retirements?

The US having the 2d highest corporate income tax in the world certainly affects our companies' competitiveness and contributes to companies moving overseas. Removing the corporate income tax for a year or two would do wonders for GM, even if it only assists its suppliers.

Mike

[daytripper]

Originally Posted by cjwolverine

Supply and Demand is the easiest equation around and yet the largest company in the world can't get a handle on it. We either don't want to buy your cars, can't afford to buy your cars, or want to buy your cars at a lower cost. Any way you slice it, you have made too many cars for us to absorb. Too many people are working at a wage far exceding the value they are adding to the car, and too many executives are flying in jets the company can't afford.

cj

You forgot one thing, and that's low resale value for existing customers. Many folks would love to be customer, but the past practices at the domestics (fire sales, overproduction, strikes, perceived quality, or whatever else) have done major damage to GM's resale values. How many times can folks step up to the window to buy when resale of what they have is 30-40% of MSRP in 3-4 years. I'd guess cash buyers and those not upside down in loans have a hard time eating that after a couple of cars. That may be ok for cars that cost $15k, but even fat cats stomachs must wrench when they sign for a $70k car thinking by the time they trade it they may get $30k.

Not to say GM is alone in this boat, as plenty of other high to mid-end cars resales have tanked recently. Leasing was one way to gloss this over, but leasing has lost its luster as well. Now tack on higher financing costs (if you can get financing), and the days where high end cars could be had for those who aren't fat cats (cash in hand) seen to be fading fast.

These kinds of worries were on peoples' minds before the media blitz on the potential demise of GM. Its no wonder that folks answer negatively to surveys about bankruptcy and car buying/value.

I myself really want a V again, but $10,000 a year depreciation + financing has me concerned. I realize this is no XLR-V, but some folks clearly lost more than their shirts on that car. While plenty of folks probably already like the buzz around this car enough to pick it over an M3, I wonder how many think its resale will hold up as well (outside of this board, of course).
I'm sure more than a few guys on here want it now, but are waiting it out to see the answers to many of the questions being raised. For those keeping it forever, I guess its not a problem, but how many guys said they were keeping their last CTS-V forever, I'd guess quite a few have changed their tune (as folks always do).

Brian R.

[Mixdoctor]

I see a bankrupt GM as a dead GM.They are having a hard enough time with sales now, but very few people are willing to buy a 20K or especially a 60K car, from a company that will not be there to service it down the road or where the potential resale value will be nil. If the big 3 go down our recession could turn into a depression.

[CIWS]

Originally Posted by Mixdoctor

If the big 3 go down our recession could turn into a depression.

If the Big 3 go out in the next couple of years we will definitely hit a depression, one that will be worse than the 30s.

[Vrocks]

Originally Posted by CIWS

If the Big 3 go out in the next couple of years we will definitely hit a depression, one that will be worse than the 30s.

I agree, if we let them go under we're totally screwed forever. More money goes overseas to the foreign owned auto companies, no control over our dependence on foreign oil, fewer plants to build military equipment if there's a major war, the pension and health care costs aren't going away... they'll simply be an additional tax burden.

In addition to that; around 3 million jobs are lost in the US (I don't know how many around the world). The government will lose tax collection on $400 billion in annual wages, they'll have to bail out states that already can't afford to pay unemployment... the list goes on and on. To not provide a loan would be insane, and the words "mutually assured destruction" come to mind when I think about it.

Our national debt is expected to rise by approximately $2 trillion over the next year or so. The last thing we need to do is to kill off a future source of jobs and revenue and become more dependent on other countries. Yes, GM, Ford and Chrysler need to restructure but we can't afford to lose them.

[mgscustomtune]

The problem to me is three factors 1) Economic Meltdown
2) People buying foreign cars just because they are assembled in the USA
3) American Auto Makers can not export cars while other country's can import
But l would still buy a new 09 V