Does weight matter in a race? Think about SCCA “rewards”. Does 1 lap make a race other than at the “Ring”? I think these answers are obvious but we likely won’t know the magnitude until the CTS VR races against the competition in the Speed GT World Challenge as a second generation V2 – hopefully next year. As I remember, the big advantage of the first generation VR was its balance and light weight. It didn’t have the fastest standing start (no AWD); it didn’t have the highest hp and fastest speed in the straight-aways; and it didn’t have much of a racing reputation at the beginning. But after 3 seasons it had more than its share of wins.
So even though the results at the Ring are encouraging, the real test is yet to come.
Last edited by Rich H : 05-11-08 at 07:12 PM.
Reason: fonts
Does weight matter in a race? Think about SCCA “rewards”. Does 1 lap make a race other than at the “Ring”? I think these answers are obvious but we likely won’t know the magnitude until the CTS VR races against the competition in the Speed GT World Challenge as a second generation V2 – hopefully next year. As I remember, the big advantage of the first generation VR was its balance and light weight. It didn’t have the fastest standing start (no AWD); it didn’t have the highest hp and fastest speed in the straight-aways; and it didn’t have much of a racing reputation at the beginning. But after 3 seasons it had more than its share of wins.
So even though the results at the Ring are encouraging, the real test is yet to come.
The racecar version really is not comparable to the street version. The great ring time speaks highly about the car's combination of handling and power. As many of you know from time spent on the track, high hp cars that either have inadequate brakes, tires, driver ability, or poor handling are track bait for a well set-up Miata or Lotus Elise with a good driver. 7:59 speaks for itself. You can safely say that none of us on this board will approach 7:59, but it just points out that despite the cars heft, it must handle and brake pretty well. I think we can take the power for granted after seeing what the LS9 dynoed at. I'm sure the V2 will smoke my E55 that has about 12 track days on it with race pads, Hoosier slicks on wider front rims, full brake ducting and hp upgrades. My Z06 track car is much more fun. I don't plan on taking this V on the track more than once to see how it fares, because I don't want to beat on it too much since it is going to be my wife's car. September can't come soon enough.
The times clocked at 'The Ring' are helpful, and great for Internet fights and its bullies & trolls, but you need to consider the following, most have already been pointed out:
1) tires, not sure what the V2 ran on, not even sure what OE tires are, as may care one day when I buy one, but I believe Porsche always runs the Pilot Sport Cups, which are great for the track (once warm), but lousy for a DD, if you have the particulars for each run post them to remove the whatifs
2) drivers, those dudes posting the times are great, you and I are amateurs (except for the Summit Point gang!!!), you will not optimize the performance of any Supercar (yeah, the V2 {and V1} are supercars 'cause I said so), you will be somewhere well north of those numbers on a track day, as too much performance may prove to be a detrement to those with minimal skills, we have all seen the Enzo crash photos in Socal
3) specs, such as octane, tires, brakes, pads, weight, pre-production, mule, total runs, track temps/conditions, etc... I am certain the C6Z time posted was on OE runcraps, a run with PS2s or Sport Cups would have yielded a lower time of 6,8 or 10secs,,, all things, except the sale price of the GTR in the first year can be manipulated to a degree
Great thread though, Caddy dominates, not bad for a manufacturer who five years ago had no claims to the World of Racing. I enjoy the haters, as they are the reason my staunch Cadillac loyalty grows, and as far as modifying the V2 powerplant, it will happen, do not think a warranty will keep all owners in check. Caddy rocks, always the first, not always the best (hard to be such when you are a groundbreaker), but we come back with a vengeance.
And lastly, that GTR better be damn good, as it is mofugly, is not a sedan, cannot carry golf clubs or four strippers to a Bachelor Party, and takes a long time to cross the Pacific should you custom-order it. It will not sell for under $90K for the first 12 months-For $90K, here is the ticket:
1) '08 C6Z, deals can be had at $10K under MSRP, or find some poor soul in the mortgage/real estate biz (like me) and get an '07 for about $55-60K
2) Sell the LS7, Go with C5R block
3) TT the mutha, good for 16psi and great street manners
4) Clutch/flywheel, full exhaust, upgrade rear, half-shafts, etc...
5) Go out to All You Can Eat Sushi Bar, and pay homeage to only Japanese Import you give your dollars to.
Should anyone opt for the outrageously stickered + unjustified mark-up of the GTR, bring it by, I would like a few minutes with it to see if it is all that, thanks in advance.
Urb, check your PMs, as I sent you the application for a moderator for the GTR Forum,,,
__________________ ONEBADCAD-Life is too short 'not' to visit Mod Hell
I really have to laugh at this endless bullshit of posts on every board from here to the Kia forums, comparing the CTS-V2 to the GTR. Especially when 99.9% of the posts are made by 20 something Fanboys with neither the means to own one, nor the skill to drive one anywhere near the "unofficial" times set by pro racers. I would hazzard a guess that either car in the hands Johnny fanboy at the ring would either :
A: Possibly break 10 mins around the track
B: Possibly break in half after flying off the track into a tree
Let me preface the following with the fact the I had a modded 1990 300ZX nissan TT ( 400whp ), and I think the GTR is weapon of a vehicle for what is was designed to do( eat far more expensive cars at the race track)
GTR Vs V2 Facts:
1. These cars do not compete in any way shape or form
2. The GTR will be faster 0-60 and around a track without question
3. The V will absolutely crush a GTR from a 10mph roll all the way to 130+ - I guarantee it!
4. The V2 is a far more luxourious car
5. The v will be cheaper
6. The V will be more readily modded - Forged 454 LSX + LS9 blower = 900whp all day long
7. No woman of any quality screws a nissan driver, ask one.
Lastly I have no idea when an inconsistenly recorded, unofficial set of lap times, set on different times, days, years, by different drivers became the end all and be all of bench racing. I really wish people would just shut the fawk up, and give gredit to the companies and engineers who continue to have the balls to make cars like these when all business logic tells them otherwise. I will enjoy this "end of days" of the performance cars, because I really think 10 years from now we will remember these times for the awesome cars we used to have available, and not how fast around a track they were
There is a reason the Ring is very important number wise. Out of all of the tracks in the world, the ring has proven to be the best test bed for a performancce vehicle. The reason is because it has the best mix of all driving conditions. Up hill turns, downhill turns, level turns, a good mix of long straightaways and because of its length it gives cars time to shine.
If the GTR ran the times it did with the same kind of start that other manufacturers use it will prove that AWD is extremely important. The car weighs a lot more than a Z06 and has less HP and torque and it destroyed the Z06 times. The only thing that can account for that is the AWD. I did not think AWD could mean that much, but it is either that or the GTR numbers are bogus. Find it funny that they picked up almost 10 seconds from the last time they tested with the same car. Funny that after 60mph that the Z06 is faster than the GTR but the Z still got its azz handed to it at the ring by the GTR.
Quote:
1) tires, not sure what the V2 ran on, not even sure what OE tires are, as may care one day when I buy one, but I believe Porsche always runs the Pilot Sport Cups, which are great for the track (once warm), but lousy for a DD, if you have the particulars for each run post them to remove the whatifs
Says it was run in showroom trim including tires.
Quote:
2) drivers, those dudes posting the times are great, you and I are amateurs (except for the Summit Point gang!!!), you will not optimize the performance of any Supercar (yeah, the V2 {and V1} are supercars 'cause I said so), you will be somewhere well north of those numbers on a track day, as too much performance may prove to be a detrement to those with minimal skills, we have all seen the Enzo crash photos in Socal
Umm, I think that is obvious. That is why magazines use professional drivers times and not yours. Their numbers are a lot more consistent.
[QUOTE3) specs, such as octane, tires, brakes, pads, weight, pre-production, mule, total runs, track temps/conditions, etc... I am certain the C6Z time posted was on OE runcraps, a run with PS2s or Sport Cups would have yielded a lower time of 6,8 or 10secs,,, all things, except the sale price of the GTR in the first year can be manipulated to a degree
][/quote]
GM said on the C6 Z06 if they use the PS2's it would have bettered the Z06's times by 2 seconds. I beleive the ZR1's are getting PS2's.
Quote:
1. These cars do not compete in any way shape or form
I think you are seriously wrong if you think 2 fast performance vehicles in the same price range do not compete. I am sure if I was thinking of 1 of the 2, i would seriously consider both.
Quote:
2. The GTR will be faster 0-60 and around a track without question
Not hard to determine when you see the V ran the ring in 7.59 and the GTR did a 7.29
Quote:
3. The V will absolutely crush a GTR from a 10mph roll all the way to 130+ - I guarantee it!
First you cannot guarantee this, and who races anything from a 10mph roll?
Quote:
4. The V2 is a far more luxourious car
I would hope so since its the only one in the comparison that is a luxury sedan.
Quote:
5. The v will be cheaper
First you cannot hold it against a car if it is so in demand it brings a premium under sticker. Then the argument can be made later that the GTR is cheaper because I am sure it will have a better resale value than a Gm product ( I almost exclusively buy GM so don't go there, I know)
Quote:
6. The V will be more readily modded - Forged 454 LSX + LS9 blower = 900whp all day long
And you think the GM driveline in the 4300lb V will be able to handle additional torque?
Quote:
7. No woman of any quality screws a nissan driver, ask one.
Women who screw a car with a nice car do it for a car that is in style. The GTR will be more recognizable to stupid trailer whores. Personally i think the car is ugly, but chicks just think the V is a CTS entry level caddy.
Quote:
So does this mean the 2009 V is the fastest sedan of all time? That's the impression I'm getting.... 05-11-08 12:09 PM
There is a reason the Ring is very important number wise. Out of all of the tracks in the world, the ring has proven to be the best test bed for a performancce vehicle. The reason is because it has the best mix of all driving conditions. Up hill turns, downhill turns, level turns, a good mix of long straightaways and because of its length it gives cars time to shine.
The Ring IS the best track to test any car's overall limiting capabilities - and the V should do well on it - after all the car was designed, tuned, and tested on this track. However, a single lap around this track won't give you insights into other important variables that are needed to be successful in long term performance required for racing, such as:
component durability and failure rates that would be more evident in a longer race
all important tire wear rate which is directly proportional to vehicle mass and usually spells the demise of most cars on the track
the "driver" factor which obviously is all important for a single car entry for a single timed lap
and track conditions that should be averaged out on different days with different weather condition
There are just too many variables that come into play to stake a car's reputation on a single timed lap. Hence, we should look forward to seeing how a "slightly" modified version of the V2 does in the World Challenge on many tracks with many drivers in many laps at many driving conditions.
!!!), you will not optimize the performance of any Supercar (yeah, the V2 {and V1} are supercars 'cause I said so), you will be somewhere well north of those numbers on a track day, as too much performance may prove to be a detrement to those with minimal skills, we have all seen the Enzo crash photos in Socal 
|510RWHP/560TQ|383ci-built|Maggie 2.8|AFR 225|Cam|B&B Exhst&Hdrs&X-Pipe|LPE CAI|KARS III|Mez WP|Spec3+/McLeod|Hotchkis sways|MSDs| CDRs|Hawks&SSBLs|CCW BC SP600s|PS2s 295r|EC Cowl Hood|UUC Shifter&Knob|Black Grills|Ult Peds|10-sec motor/12-sec rear
