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Cadillac CTS First Generation Forum - 2003 - 2007 Discussion, CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality in Cadillac CTS Coupe, Sport Sedan and Sport Wagon Forums; Heres the thing. JDPower surveys are showing that Cadillacs are reliable. Why should we believe JDPower? No real reason, other ...
  1. #31
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Heres the thing. JDPower surveys are showing that Cadillacs are reliable. Why should we believe JDPower? No real reason, other than that there is no other basis for comparison. They do the work, they do the surveys, they give us the results. Are we expected to throw that info away because someones personal experience differs? I owned an 01 SLS, had it for 3 years 36500 miles and it had 1 repair in that time. Does that mean Im gonna tell everyone that Cadillac is great? NO, It means I'm gonna tell everyone MY Cadillac was great. So Play, you had a problem? Sounds like YOUR Cadillac was not so good. Sorry to hear that. But it would seem that Cadillac overall(according to JDPower, our only source) has turned around
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett
    Heres the thing. JDPower surveys are showing that Cadillacs are reliable. Why should we believe JDPower? No real reason, other than that there is no other basis for comparison. They do the work, they do the surveys, they give us the results. Are we expected to throw that info away because someones personal experience differs? I owned an 01 SLS, had it for 3 years 36500 miles and it had 1 repair in that time. Does that mean Im gonna tell everyone that Cadillac is great? NO, It means I'm gonna tell everyone MY Cadillac was great. So Play, you had a problem? Sounds like YOUR Cadillac was not so good. Sorry to hear that. But it would seem that Cadillac overall(according to JDPower, our only source) has turned around
    Sure, and I have never denied that I like the overall direction that they are taking. They are doing things to improve their reliability thus far and they should be commended for that at least. I am just saying I expect them to go over and above the typical expectation to prove that long term results will be acceptable. I WANT a Cadillac! But one bad apple CAN spoil the bunch, and until I feel that the quality of american cars overall is back up to par I am not going to take that plunge. I am not super happy with the size and class of the BMW, but so far its been a pretty decent car all other things aside. If I could afford a 745 id probably get one, but a used STS is probably the best I can do in that category of vehicle, maybe 2 or 3 years old as I will certainly not be paying what one will cost new and I see nothing wrong with wanting a higher standard from a preowned one. The point is, some people here see what I experienced as a "fluke" that just simply never happens with these cars and that is just not the case. There are great cars, and there are bad cars, I just want the number of bad cars decreased, no one should have to replace their engine at 4000 miles, or have a steering shaft lubricated to correct a problem that the manufacturer knows deems a replacement, just little issues like that.
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Playdrv4me
    I just want the number of bad cars decreased, no one should have to replace their engine at 4000 miles, or have a steering shaft lubricated to correct a problem that the manufacturer knows deems a replacement, just little issues like that.
    ===========================
    Spring 2002 - fails ramp up
    ===========================

    With production cranking along nicely, March through April of 2002 found a series of new reports of M3 engine failures. Most were thrown rods. Some appeared to have been driven hard, others didn't show much sign of it.

    BMW's reaction was to aggressively go after the owners of these cars. The engine DME records peak speed, peak rpm, and elapsed time over 7800 rpm. DME's were dumped, and some showed evidence of at least brief operation in the 8100 to 8500 rpm range. As more reports of engine fail hit the Internet ( 3 in March, 5 in April, 10 in May ) BMW began a pattern of regarding any DME data over about 8300 rpm as proof that the driver was at fault, and several stick shift owners were considerably hassled about paying for their $17k new engines.

    1. SMG cars were getting failures, and were showing DME data in the 8400 region in a few cases, yet it's impossible for that gearbox to be mis shifted.

    2. Damage to failed engines was typically isolated to one or two of the rod bearings - numbers 3, 4 and 5 being prevalent, and there almost never evidence of top end valve-train damage on the other cylinders. If the motor was massively overreved, the first thing to go is usually the valves (at around 10k rpm, not 8.4k), followed by the bearings at some higher rpm range. Fried specific bearings without any valve damage looked - _strange_.

    After a lot of agony for what was becoming a couple dozen or more M3 enthusiasts, BMW inched forward to what appeared to be a policy of eventually replacing all the failed motors under warranty, even in cases where BMW wanted to claim driver fault in these 8200 or 8400 rpm readings. BMW also began to show signs of being less accusational towards SMG owners, since they clearly could not have mis shifted their car, and the rev limiter should prevent throttle induced overrevs.

    BMW didn't seem to see the irony on being hostile towards stick shift owners showing 8300 rpm on their DME, while being kinder to SMG owners with the same set of failed bearings and a similar DME reading of 8300.

    =============================
    The Summer of Discontent 2002
    =============================

    Due to the easy communication of the Internet, enthusiasts began gathering together data on failed M3 motors - one in particular set up a very thorough site to collect up and organize the fail data for analysis.

    In June 2002, another dozen failed engine reports surfaced, followed by a similar amount in July. Cars were failing at the rate of about 3 to 4 per week - getting close to one a day, and these were just the reports which happened to reach the Internet.

    Some folks screamed in panic. Some argued for calm. BMW very very clearly said _nothing_. When comments could be extracted from BMW staff at any level, the following were the themes:

    o Fails are really rare and/or people are lying about it on the Internet
    o All engines which have failed were massively overreved
    o M3 owners don't know how to break in and maintain their cars - we're lucky BMWNA brought the M3 to the US at all

    In general, most folks could already see that these statements were factually incorrect. Many enthusiasts personally knew some of the people with failed motors, so it wasn't all lies. Ample documentation of non-overreved blown motors was available - and an intelligent person would assume BMW had access to this data. And M3 owners were well aware that as a group they were obsessive about their cars and hounded their dealers to do proper maintenance.

    As July led to August and September, the patterns in the fail data became more and more clear.

    Failed cars were disproportionally coming from 3 specific build months, and more exactly 7 specific build weeks which happened to come almost exactly on a 3 week delay offset from the bearing shell changes back in late 2001. This became known as the “11/01 era” (covering late 10/01, all of 11/01, and early 12/01). Cars made in the 11/01 era were around 20 times more likely to fail than either before or after that time. Massive speculation about the exact failure rate raged on the Internet. Problem being that only BMW had the actual fail stats, and they were not talking. With guesses that perhaps ½ to ¼ of all fails got reported onto the net, a general guess is that there is a background M3 bearing failure rate of somewhat less than 1%. And the 11/01 era appears to carry a failure rate more in the 10% range, and is still rising, though at a slowing rate compared to the summer failures.

    More data got cooked, and more things were noticed:

    1. Fails had no correlation to gearbox – it was just a cross section of whatever was being ordered for each production month. October fails were all sticks because that what was shipping. November fails were 80% SMG – same proportion they were ordered in.
    2. Fails looked very much alike. Main rod bearing death, typically on cylinder 3, or perhaps 4 and 5. No signs of valvetrain damage other than that inflicted by the spun bearing.
    3. Data showed no correlation to which oil was used – in fact the cars from the 5w30 era were somewhat more robust that the 10w60 cars.
    4. The DME dumps of SMG cars appeared to prove that the factory rev limiter was not functioning well, at least not in some cars.
    5. Most 11/01 era cars were failing right around 6000 miles
    6. January 02 cars and newer saw a few fails, but not at the rate of 11/01
    7. There is a hint of early data that cars newer than March 02 may not be seeing much in the way of bearing failures – BMW may have iteratively fixed the problem
    8. Owners have begun to show that a simple $18.50 oil analysis can detect elevated levels of lead in the engine oil that are markers for imminent bearing failure.

    And as more experiences were exchanged, BMWNA’s “policy” on M3 failures became more and more clear.

    BMWNA’s formal stance is that there may be a few failed motors out there, that customers need to use the right oil, shift properly, break their motors in right, warm them up, and that each failure will be examined on a “case by case” basis. In other words, BMWNA specifically wants to reserve the right to accuse drivers of being at fault.

    This despite massively accumulating evidence that examples of driver-abuse being involved in these fails is vanishingly rare. After what we guess to be several hundred cases of replaced motors, we are not aware of BMWNA ever successfully blaming the failure on the driver. They’ve attempted it some, insulted a lot of customers, stalled, forced things into litigation in a couple cases, but never once had the customer pay for the replaced motor in the end.

    You can spin that positive. If you own and M3, and the motor fails, you’re likely to get a new motor under warranty in the end.

    And you can spin it negative: You may very well go through a very painful and insulting process along the way to having BMW fix a motor which by all logic was flawed when it was delivered to the customer.

    And the sad part here is that BMWNA is not saving a dime with all their accusations and ill will with their customers. Engines are being replaced no matter what.

    The three specific areas of focus right now are the following:

    A. BMWNA continues to examine spun bearing M3’s and look for opportunities to blame their customers despite massive evidence that the problem is in the motor, not the customer. This is insulting to their customers, and is not saving any money nor protecting any reputation.
    B. Despite several hundred examples of bearing death, and its associated symptoms, BMWNA field techs are required to examine each and every unhealthy motor before dealers are allowed to perform and service, and these techs in many cases are still leading with the assumption that despite the car having the telltale noise and being from the famous 11/01 era, failing bearings is not the most likely cause. Their marching orders appear to be to actively try and NOT find failed bearings, and if they do find them to actively look to blame anyone except BMW. This is again pointless, and inefficient. The rational move is to have a quick and easy test ready for the very large number of ongoing bearing fail cases which are cropping up, and to quickly and politely get new motors into those cars
    C. BMWNA is in a communications blackout with their customers on this issue. Customers want to know what’s really going on, and believe that BMW knows more than they are saying. Customers would like to see some kind of confidence boosting warranty on the engine bearings to address owner stress and resale value issues, yet BMW is still in a damage-control mode where they won’t even discuss the problem let alone take ownership of it. This is doing serious harm to their reputation and the feelings of their most enthusiastic customers, and it doesn’t appear to be buying BMWNA anything in return for that suffering. There is obviously a problem with the bearings – everyone can see that, and continuing to let the issue fester helps no one.

    As of this writing, there are 107 detailed documented cases of bearing failure in M3 engines, and probably a couple hundred more that have happened but are not documented. That number continues to rise, and both BMW and BMWNA are doing nothing pro active about it.
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by darrelld
    ===========================
    Spring 2002 - fails ramp up
    ===========================

    With production cranking along nicely, March through April of 2002 found a series of new reports of M3 engine failures. Most were thrown rods. Some appeared to have been driven hard, others didn't show much sign of it.

    BMW's reaction was to aggressively go after the owners of these cars. The engine DME records peak speed, peak rpm, and elapsed time over 7800 rpm. DME's were dumped, and some showed evidence of at least brief operation in the 8100 to 8500 rpm range. As more reports of engine fail hit the Internet ( 3 in March, 5 in April, 10 in May ) BMW began a pattern of regarding any DME data over about 8300 rpm as proof that the driver was at fault, and several stick shift owners were considerably hassled about paying for their $17k new engines.

    1. SMG cars were getting failures, and were showing DME data in the 8400 region in a few cases, yet it's impossible for that gearbox to be mis shifted.

    2. Damage to failed engines was typically isolated to one or two of the rod bearings - numbers 3, 4 and 5 being prevalent, and there almost never evidence of top end valve-train damage on the other cylinders. If the motor was massively overreved, the first thing to go is usually the valves (at around 10k rpm, not 8.4k), followed by the bearings at some higher rpm range. Fried specific bearings without any valve damage looked - _strange_.

    After a lot of agony for what was becoming a couple dozen or more M3 enthusiasts, BMW inched forward to what appeared to be a policy of eventually replacing all the failed motors under warranty, even in cases where BMW wanted to claim driver fault in these 8200 or 8400 rpm readings. BMW also began to show signs of being less accusational towards SMG owners, since they clearly could not have mis shifted their car, and the rev limiter should prevent throttle induced overrevs.

    BMW didn't seem to see the irony on being hostile towards stick shift owners showing 8300 rpm on their DME, while being kinder to SMG owners with the same set of failed bearings and a similar DME reading of 8300.
    Thanks,
    Once again BMW is brought up as some sort of reliability benchmark and I dont see why. I am the first to agree that most of these cars are NOT reliable,but they ARE built to a high standard of quality and fit and finish Cadillac cant yet compare with. BUT theres an issue, BMW will have to face up to it eventually, I dont own an M3 so I cant say what is really going on there. BMW has a reputation and their top level people are going to tarnish it if they dont watch THEIR bottom line which is a customer that typically has no problem paying full sticker for their vehicles or MORE. They arent in too much danger, but anybody can fall off the tree.

    Cadillac is improving, and right now before seeing the finished product on several models, and long term results for the CTS, I put them about on par with Infiniti. But my comparisons extend to Lexus, Mercedes, Acura even Hyundai/Kia, which is the only company really respectable for leaps in bounds in quality and manufacturing in no time flat. As a whole, those companies offer a high benchmark of quality and/or improvement that Cadillac can use as a guide for its improvements. Remember, we showed them how to do it years and years ago, now its time we took a lesson from our own playbook. If im going to run into disagreement here thats fine, but keep those factors in mind.
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Playdrv4me
    Thanks,
    Once again BMW is brought up as some sort of reliability benchmark and I dont see why. I am the first to agree that most of these cars are NOT reliable,but they ARE built to a high standard of quality and fit and finish Cadillac cant yet compare with. BUT theres an issue, BMW will have to face up to it eventually, I dont own an M3 so I cant say what is really going on there. BMW has a reputation and their top level people are going to tarnish it if they dont watch THEIR bottom line which is a customer that typically has no problem paying full sticker for their vehicles or MORE. They arent in too much danger, but anybody can fall off the tree.

    Cadillac is improving, and right now before seeing the finished product on several models, and long term results for the CTS, I put them about on par with Infiniti. But my comparisons extend to Lexus, Mercedes, Acura even Hyundai/Kia, which is the only company really respectable for leaps in bounds in quality and manufacturing in no time flat. As a whole, those companies offer a high benchmark of quality and/or improvement that Cadillac can use as a guide for its improvements. Remember, we showed them how to do it years and years ago, now its time we took a lesson from our own playbook. If im going to run into disagreement here thats fine, but keep those factors in mind.
    BMW Quality, Fit, and Finish???

    ===========================
    M3 Rollout - the early days
    ===========================

    Our story begins before M3's were even available to the public. There was much publicity and anticipation of the "new" e46M3 which would take over the honored title of M3 from it's predecessors the e30M3 and e36M3. In mid 2000 there had been a few press reviews and test drives, lots of photos, and intense speculation from the enthusiast community. BMW was telegraphing a "Fall 2000" rollout under a 2001 model year designation for the new car.

    And then, as late 2000 approached, rumors of delays surfaced. It was all hush hush. No one in authority would comment (this is a recurring theme). But soon it became clear that the M3 would not arrive on time for some reason, and the rumor was that engines were exploding.

    After a few months, some semi-official comments were made that indeed a very few motors had failed in testing, that BMW had caught the problem, stopped production, called off the rollout, and was now locating the root cause and re-starting the process.

    More details emerged. The failed motors had died catastrophic deaths - broken cranks, thrown rods - major metal mayhem. After initially suspecting that the long inline 6 crank was at fault in the 8000 rpm stressed environment, outside experts were brought in, including none other than tuner Nowack, and the seeming real root cause was located: critical parts in the crank+bearing+block area had been mis-manufactured due to a programming error on the CNC machine which created them. This out of tolerance part had resulted in an oil starvation issue which then overheated the crank and led to overall catastrophic failure (is this sounding familiar yet)?


    Because the out of spec parts were already deep inside the stack of motors and M3's being prepared for the rollout, a full halt had to be called on production, and the whole assembly line backed up so that motors could be inspected, removed, parts replaced, and things put right again. This pushed the originally planned ~November 2000 rollout date back 4 months to around March 2001.
    ===========
    M3's arrive
    ===========

    March finally came, and enthusiasts went into a frenzy. M3's were glorious, fun, and kinda raspy it turned out. They clunked a little, but still everyone loved them. Life was good.

    And the cars appeared very strong. Some new owners immediately took them to the track, ran them hard, and had not a single problem. Everyone was relieved that the rollout engine health concerns seemed to have been dealt with.

    Production trundled along, though it was mighty slow. After shipping around 500 cars in March for the rollout (333 demos - 1 to each dealer, plus a hundred or more customer cars), the following months saw what appeared to be lower numbers - 200 here, 300 there, barely one per average sized dealer in the US. Word was that capacity was totally limited by BMW's ability to build S54 motors at the Munich plant. Long waiting lines continued for eager enthusiasts looking for delivery.

    Starting around July and August of 2001, about 6 months into the M3 production run, a couple reports from the US, and from foreign owners surfaced of blown engines. Thrown rods was the word. It was just a couple cases, and both BMW, and the enthusiast community looked at them as likely some kind of driver error - previous generation M3's had been famously easy to mis-shift due to strong gearbox synchros, and one could blow an engine by grabbing 3rd gear instead of 5th at 120 mph and spinning the motor up to 10k or 12k rpm. A few of the failed-car owners protested vehemently that nothing of the sort had happened, but they were generally dismissed. BMW was famous for making very strong engines, and the manufacturing problem from fall 2000 had long since been located and dealt with - at least this was the thinking at the time.

    Of minor interest, in mid 2001, BMW ordered an oil change on the M3 - the 5w30 oil which had been shipping on all cars was ordered changed to a new special BMW-only 10w60. New cars came with the new oil, and 5w30 cars were asked to come in for a free change to 10w60. This seemed to be some kind of reaction to concerns over long term high rpm running ability, and the oil having enough high temperature capacity to hold together on such autobahn blasts.
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by darrelld
    BMW Quality, Fit, and Finish???

    ===========================
    M3 Rollout - the early days
    ===========================

    Our story begins before M3's were even available to the public. There was much publicity and anticipation of the "new" e46M3 which would take over the honored title of M3 from it's predecessors the e30M3 and e36M3. In mid 2000 there had been a few press reviews and test drives, lots of photos, and intense speculation from the enthusiast community. BMW was telegraphing a "Fall 2000" rollout under a 2001 model year designation for the new car.

    And then, as late 2000 approached, rumors of delays surfaced. It was all hush hush. No one in authority would comment (this is a recurring theme). But soon it became clear that the M3 would not arrive on time for some reason, and the rumor was that engines were exploding.

    After a few months, some semi-official comments were made that indeed a very few motors had failed in testing, that BMW had caught the problem, stopped production, called off the rollout, and was now locating the root cause and re-starting the process.

    More details emerged. The failed motors had died catastrophic deaths - broken cranks, thrown rods - major metal mayhem. After initially suspecting that the long inline 6 crank was at fault in the 8000 rpm stressed environment, outside experts were brought in, including none other than tuner Nowack, and the seeming real root cause was located: critical parts in the crank+bearing+block area had been mis-manufactured due to a programming error on the CNC machine which created them. This out of tolerance part had resulted in an oil starvation issue which then overheated the crank and led to overall catastrophic failure (is this sounding familiar yet)?


    Because the out of spec parts were already deep inside the stack of motors and M3's being prepared for the rollout, a full halt had to be called on production, and the whole assembly line backed up so that motors could be inspected, removed, parts replaced, and things put right again. This pushed the originally planned ~November 2000 rollout date back 4 months to around March 2001.
    ===========
    M3's arrive
    ===========

    March finally came, and enthusiasts went into a frenzy. M3's were glorious, fun, and kinda raspy it turned out. They clunked a little, but still everyone loved them. Life was good.

    And the cars appeared very strong. Some new owners immediately took them to the track, ran them hard, and had not a single problem. Everyone was relieved that the rollout engine health concerns seemed to have been dealt with.

    Production trundled along, though it was mighty slow. After shipping around 500 cars in March for the rollout (333 demos - 1 to each dealer, plus a hundred or more customer cars), the following months saw what appeared to be lower numbers - 200 here, 300 there, barely one per average sized dealer in the US. Word was that capacity was totally limited by BMW's ability to build S54 motors at the Munich plant. Long waiting lines continued for eager enthusiasts looking for delivery.

    Starting around July and August of 2001, about 6 months into the M3 production run, a couple reports from the US, and from foreign owners surfaced of blown engines. Thrown rods was the word. It was just a couple cases, and both BMW, and the enthusiast community looked at them as likely some kind of driver error - previous generation M3's had been famously easy to mis-shift due to strong gearbox synchros, and one could blow an engine by grabbing 3rd gear instead of 5th at 120 mph and spinning the motor up to 10k or 12k rpm. A few of the failed-car owners protested vehemently that nothing of the sort had happened, but they were generally dismissed. BMW was famous for making very strong engines, and the manufacturing problem from fall 2000 had long since been located and dealt with - at least this was the thinking at the time.

    Of minor interest, in mid 2001, BMW ordered an oil change on the M3 - the 5w30 oil which had been shipping on all cars was ordered changed to a new special BMW-only 10w60. New cars came with the new oil, and 5w30 cars were asked to come in for a free change to 10w60. This seemed to be some kind of reaction to concerns over long term high rpm running ability, and the oil having enough high temperature capacity to hold together on such autobahn blasts.
    Youve already touched upon this vehicle once. Do you have some reports saved for the E500? how about the SL600 or the LS430? What about the E55 AMG,or the Volkswagen Phaeton or Touareg... The point is, your beating a dead horse and picking on one car,moreso if for nothing else because its the brand I drive,which shouldnt even matter. So some M3s sucked, its one car out of hundreds and even thousands more M3s and thousands of other overseas vehicles which have a longstanding reputation and everyone makes mistakes. Those who ignore them have people like me to bitch about them (yes I realize im bitching,but I plan to investigate this whole M3 thing further on the BMW board because its definitely a rediculous problem that I wasnt aware of and I really like the M3).
    In addition KPMG just released a study that shows US Execs themselves see the US Auto market declining 53% over the next 5 years over "rising quality concerns" and "increasing foreign competition". FIFTY THREE PERCENT! Ouch. I dont know about you but it kind of pisses me off that my countries economy will be affected over the product thats being pumped out of US auto plants right now. Toyota saw its largest gain ever recently....

    Anyhow, I think I have taken this thread way to far off course and I apologize. I realize the commendation was for CTS making the initial quality report and congrats for that.
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Playdrv4me
    Youve already touched upon this vehicle once. Do you have some reports saved for the E500? how about the SL600 or the LS430? What about the E55 AMG,or the Volkswagen Phaeton or Touareg... The point is, your beating a dead horse and picking on one car,moreso if for nothing else because its the brand I drive,which shouldnt even matter. So some M3s sucked, its one car out of hundreds and even thousands more M3s and thousands of other overseas vehicles which have a longstanding reputation and everyone makes mistakes. Those who ignore them have people like me to bitch about them (yes I realize im bitching,but I plan to investigate this whole M3 thing further on the BMW board because its definitely a rediculous problem that I wasnt aware of and I really like the M3). In addition KPMG just released a study that shows US Execs themselves see the US Auto market declining 53% over the next 5 years over "rising quality concerns" and "increasing foreign competition". FIFTY THREE PERCENT! Ouch. I dont know about you but it kind of pisses me off that my countries economy will be affected over the product thats being pumped out of US auto plants right now. Toyota saw its largest gain ever recently....
    Quote from Twenty Year MB Owner;

    Over the past 20 years I have driven almost every MB. They were of very high
    quality until 5-6 years ago. Today I feel sad to say that MB is not a high
    quality brand anymore. Quality has slipped unbelievably much. My last? MB
    was an E50 that had a cheap interior feel, not at all as solid feeling as
    the E500. It was noisy at high speeds, rattling was present. The CLK is a
    joke, Ml, V-classes fall apart...Something terrible is going on at MB. 5
    years ago BMW was nothing to think about, today I am surprised to find the
    M5 having that MB quality of old. Tough tests in northern Sweden show Audi
    A6 to be of lesser quality than MB E-class and MB of lesser quality than BMW
    5 series. In Sweden Audi is becoming known as the car that feels solid but
    is mediocre. Long term tests show Audi to be a vey average car. A recent
    test in northern Sweden and Finland revealed that the new S320 has a bad
    suspension in temperatures below -10C. Its ESP is of questionable capacity
    on slippery roads but without ESP the car is dangerous. At temperatures
    of -50C!!!! the S-class car manages to deliver +3C inside the car whereas a
    Volvo had no problems to deliver a warm interior. At that temperature the
    S-class air suspension stopped working. The testing auto magazine says that
    MB is not showing any particular feel of quality anymore and that MB pays
    more attention to features than quality these days.




    GM Dealers Hail Quality, Rap Worker Spiffs

    GM's product quality has improved, but there is still concern about profitability and dealer programs, say Detroit area new-car dealers sitting on a panel before a conference of the Michigan Association of Certified Public Accountants last Thursday.

    Panelist Jeffrey L. Tamaroff, a Buick-Honda-Acura-Nissan dealer in Roseville, Michigan, agreed that GM quality has caught up to that of Japanese brands and resulted in "sharply reduced" warranty service work. "We don't regret the warranty improvement," said Sam Slaughter, a Pontiac-GMC dealer in Farmington Hills, Michigan, "because we can more than make up for it by buyers returning to our GM brands." Slaughter is adding a Buick franchise and will build a new used-car center in the Detroit suburb.

    GM's so-called "legacy costs" for health and pension benefits, combined with rising premiums for dealer employee insurance polices are "a main concern we have for the future," according to Karl J. Zimmerman, CEO of George Matick Chevrolet, Redford, Michigan. Tamaroff concurred that his group's Blue Cross monthly premium has risen considerably as health care costs continue to escalate.

    The panelists assailed several GM policies, particularly incentives paid to salepersons and managers directly for matching or surpassing sales targets. One panelist said his employees collected about $200,000 last year in such spiffs, a reward process he called "divisive." Another panelist complained of "constantly changing rebate programs" and "rebate burnout." Tamaroff pointed out that the Buick Rendezvous has forty-seven variations, while Honda Accord has only four. "GM doesn't need that many," he opined On the positive side, Slaughter indicated that deliveries of sold-order cars, once a prolonged process, has been cut to less than a week, even for new vehicles such as Pontiac Montana minivans.

    Panel chairman, Patrick J. Godfrey, first vice-president of Comerica Bank, asked the panelists how they were doing this year. Certified pre-owned and Internet sites are growing areas in sales and profits, they said. Each agreed that the year would be profitable, though not up to previous years. -Mac Gordon



    Upward Sales Mark 20-Year High for Cadillac

    A 200,000-unit year now seems probable for the first time in 20 years, thanks to resurgent demand among younger buyers for the angular CTS sedan and XLR roadster. Cadillac's surge has been ignited by a blatant appeal to younger Gen X buyers, who had defected from the GM luxury brand's aging Seville and Deville sedans in droves. The CTS, XLR, and new SRX sport wagons are built, moreover, in plants dedicated to world-class quality products - Grand River in Lansing, Michigan, for CTS and SRX and the Corvette plant in Bowling Green, Kentucky, for the XLR.

    Boosting sales to 172,325 units in the January-October period, a gain of nearly five percent, Cadillac dealers have been even more cheered by their conquest of Honda, Nissan, and Toyota owners for the once-controversial CTS sedan. More than 41,000 STS sedans were sold n the first ten months of 2003, and the average age of all Cadillac buyers has been cut from 64 in 1999 to 59 this year, according to Business Week Magazine (November 24).

    As reported, Cadillac General Manager Mark R. LaNeve is orchestrating the sharp swing in the brand's marketing strategy towards a younger clientele. The product piece of the new approach is reflected in sportier suspensions across the line and embracing the SRX wagon. Cadillac is pointing towards a critical launch next fall when the STS replaces the graying Seville sedan, carrying forward the macho grille looks and angled lines of the Escalade SUV, CTS, XLR, and SRX.

    Cadillac dealers, pleased with the return of younger buyers from Japanese brands, now have set their sights on catching up to the Germans. The 2005 STS is aimed squarely at the cynosure BMW 5-Series, LaNeve says. To underline Cadillac's new potent push, the "V" editions of each model are planned, starting with a 400-hp CTS-V entry in the Sports Car Club of America's 2004 races. In true 'race on Sunday, sell on Monday' style, LaNeve says he wants to erase forever "the image of Cadillacs as non-performance cruisers" - or as the seller of such turkeys as Cimarron, Allanté, and Catera. -Mac Gordon
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  8. #38
    rueben44 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Sorry for the angry post but I have a lot of experience with cars and hate to see generalizations when I know better. Cadillac had body issues but they have for the most part been mechanically sound cars. Now they have better quality body’s to match the excellent drive trains.

    I loved my BMW's and Benz's and yes the pre-95 Benz's were better cars in my opinion but I just did not like the flood of repairs that they often gave me. I will agree to disagree and call it quits on this one.

    Oh and remember folks Infiniti had huge quality and dependability issues until just a few years ago (less that 3). They just turned around but it is funny how they are given the benefit of the doubt.
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  9. #39
    CWK
    CWK is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Just an update on my CTS.

    NO sign of parts. This Monday will be a complete week the CTS has been torn down. (minus new years day)

    I have been Offically been listed on GM HOT LIST for parts since Dec 31.

    I hope none of you ever have a break-down. I guess part availability is a JOKE with Cadillac.
    Great Car when it works. Good luck getting parts for it when it breaks.

    I can tell you now!!!! I had the biggest hopes for this BRAND of vehicle. The hype with Quality and Service is PURE Smoke Blowing at the finest.

    If this is not corrected next week, and I have to return for more down time.

    Good Buy CADILLAC.

    Sorry but this is reality.

    CHAD
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  10. #40
    darrelld's Avatar
    darrelld is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by CWK
    Just an update on my CTS.

    NO sign of parts. This Monday will be a complete week the CTS has been torn down. (minus new years day)

    I have been Offically been listed on GM HOT LIST for parts since Dec 31.

    I hope none of you ever have a break-down. I guess part availability is a JOKE with Cadillac.
    Great Car when it works. Good luck getting parts for it when it breaks.

    I can tell you now!!!! I had the biggest hopes for this BRAND of vehicle. The hype with Quality and Service is PURE Smoke Blowing at the finest.

    If this is not corrected next week, and I have to return for more down time.

    Good Buy CADILLAC.

    Sorry but this is reality.

    CHAD
    As you can see, any car can have problems.

    The question is what type of loaner do they provide and are they addressing the problem.

    In case of many BMW owners, they deny and blame. This does not sound like your case.
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  11. #41
    Brett's Avatar
    Brett is offline Watching the Watchers
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by CWK
    Good Buy CADILLAC.


    CHAD
    I agree Cadillac is a good buy...oh did you mean Good Bye...ahhhhh, i get it....hehe
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  12. #42
    Playdrv4me's Avatar
    Playdrv4me is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Hey Reuben,
    I agree I was a little overexcited on my posts as well. I just thought I was being attacked because I had chosen to go with the little bimmer when in reality I love the Caddies, and I want another one. Well leave it at our agreement er...to disagree bro...hehe.

    Also I was not giving infiniti high praises by any means, I have never liked infiniti EXCEPT for the Q45 which I believe WAS a good vehicle in its original sporty form, until they dicked around with it and turned into an overgrown egg recently. Once again, sorry for the rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by darrelld
    As you can see, any car can have problems.

    The question is what type of loaner do they provide and are they addressing the problem.

    In case of many BMW owners, they deny and blame. This does not sound like your case.
    As for Darell,

    UMM WHAT?

    Now you are posting based completely on misinformation. Have you even asked me how my BMW dealer has handled my claims?? I took the Bimmer in for lousy seat retractors and not only did they get right on ordering me another set (this was really a test to see if they would respond to such a strange and picky request), but they told me when they would be here, and offered me courtesy transportation whenever I need it. I can truly say that my BMW dealer is world class DESPITE THE POOR RECOGNITION THE SAME DEALER RECEIVES FOR ITS GM SERVICE DEPARTMENT! Yes thats right, they have a GM line also, including Cadillac and based on many poor reports from customers I didnt take mine there. But they are the ONLY BMW dealer in BFE where I live, and the service is TOP NOTCH,its like a whole other dealership.

    I could have pressed for a loaner car.... but wait what the hell??? Cadillac (Pontiac/GMC/Buick) never even offered me courtesy transportation and youre ranting about a loaner car from BMDub? GM said "well uhh... theres a guy that leaves out of here at around 7...now theres no guarantee hell get you to work by 8 but uhh...yea" Come on now CWK has had a horrible experience and just mentioned "The hype with Quality and Service is PURE Smoke Blowing at the finest" and youre making it less than it is based on some information youve gleamed on the web to make BMW look worse. Leave it alone already. THAT is enfuriating.
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  13. #43
    CWK
    CWK is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    They gave me a loaner (but I really did not need one). They loaned me a Oldsmobile. I have been driving my wifes Infiniti Fx-35...(which sad to say I am beginning to like it)

    They are not passing blame. (they are waiting for GM to make the next move)

    NO PARTS AVAILABLE. You can look at that two ways. ONE 1). There has not been a need to have parts available because of quality. or TWO 2). Poor Service and Communication with parts makers and dealerships.

    I don't know where the parts come from, but we live in Michigan (should be available) close to the manufacturer.

    My frustration first started when the first problem occured. Which OK...it happens. Then something else happened. Now, NO PARTS available. Come on folks.

    CHAD
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  14. #44
    darrelld's Avatar
    darrelld is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Playdrv4me
    Hey Reuben,
    I agree I was a little overexcited on my posts as well. I just thought I was being attacked because I had chosen to go with the little bimmer when in reality I love the Caddies, and I want another one. Well leave at our agreement er...to disagree hehe.

    Also I was not giving infiniti high praises by any means, I have never liked infiniti EXCEPT for the Q45 which I believe WAS a good vehicle in its original sporty form, until they dicked around with it and turned into an overgrown egg recently. Once again, sorry for the rant.

    As for Darell,
    Now you are posting based completely on misinformation. Have you even asked me how my BMW dealer has handled my claims?? I took the Bimmer in for lousy seat retractors and not only did they get right on ordering me another set (this was really a test to see if they would respond to such a strange request), but they told me when they would be here, and offered me courtesy transportation whenever I need it. I can truly say that my BMW dealer is world class DESPITE THE POOR RECOGNITION THE SAME DEALER RECEIVES FOR ITS GM SERVICE DEPARTMENT! Yes thats right, they have a GM line also, including Cadillac and based on many poor reports from customers I didnt take it there. But they are the ONLY BMW dealer in BFE where I live, and the service is TOP NOTCH.

    I could have pressed for a loaner car.... well wait what the hell??? Cadillac (Pontiac/GMC/Buick) never even offered me courtesy transportation and youre ranting about a loaner car? They said "well uhh... theres a guy that leaves out of here at around 7...now theres no guarantee hell get you to work by 8 but uhh...yea" Come on now CWK has had a horrible experience and just mentioned the dealer and brand service SUCKED and youre making it less than it is based on some information youve gleamed on the web to make BMW look worse. Leave it alone already. THAT is enfuriating.
    I started this thread and now you are degrading to pointless observations about character and motivation.

    Please continue with your display of a BMW owners class and character.

    JD Power survey results are based on science, your comments are simply opinions based upon limited experience and personal preference.

    You are a perfect match for the troll described earlier.
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  15. #45
    darrelld's Avatar
    darrelld is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: CTS Beats All German And All But One Japanese Car in its Class For Initial Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by CWK
    They gave me a loaner (but I really did not need one). They loaned me a Oldsmobile. I have been driving my wifes Infiniti Fx-35...(which sad to say I am beginning to like it)

    They are not passing blame. (they are waiting for GM to make the next move)

    NO PARTS AVAILABLE. You can look at that two ways. ONE 1). There has not been a need to have parts available because of quality. or TWO 2). Poor Service and Communication with parts makers and dealerships.

    I don't know where the parts come from, but we live in Michigan (should be available) close to the manufacturer.

    My frustration first started when the first problem occured. Which OK...it happens. Then something else happened. Now, NO PARTS available. Come on folks.

    CHAD
    Apparently the 3.6L is so new parts are not avaiable yet.

    On my last visit to the dealer for the Goodyear tire recall they gave me a 03 DeVille loaner.
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