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Cadillac CTS First Generation Forum - 2003 - 2007 Discussion, The Great Air Intake Challenge in Cadillac CTS Coupe, Sport Sedan and Sport Wagon Forums; today is the day huh.... definitely looking forward to the results....
  1. #151
    BishopRuger's Avatar
    BishopRuger is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    today is the day huh.... definitely looking forward to the results.

  2. #152
    DDS rollin a CTS's Avatar
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    I feel like a little kid at christmas!!!

  3. #153
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCTS
    Ames,
    Here's my take on the cone vs the panel filter. You have an air flow pattern through the filter. The air will seek the closest and fastest area of the filter. You have an entrance and an exit point. I don't think air can be taken in at an exit point. So how much air comes into the filter requires the same amount filter space for the exit. So in a way half is intake and half is exhaust air. I think that reduces the available filter space by 50%.

    Next I think the flat panel is more than than enough surface space. After many miles we've looked at the flat panel filter and only about a 3" diameter is being used. That's a very small portion of the filter surface.

    After the TonyA mod the air is directled in a completely different direction which totals at two sources. Ody provided us with a nice pic that depicts the increased air flow. All of those small circles are the new flow. That was the proof we were looking for to show the TonyA was functioning.

    But all of this bantering will come to light at the dyno soon! The only factor that won't be addressed is the at speed air pressure boost.
    That's only the case if your filter isn't filtering. Since the filter is filtering the suction on the engine side is creating a fairly equal pressure all across the filter surface. It is sucking air from all parts of the filter. Only a certain area is getting really dirty because debris is coming in from the outside and the big (relative term) debris has too much momentum and mass so it's hitting one general area.

    The in/out is also very wrong for several reasons. First of all the exhaust is free flowing, the intake is free flowing, the filter is not. If the exhaust and intake could move some volume of air, you'd want the filter to have more surface areas because it has to filter. If it's the same then it's a choke point, or else you need it to not actually filter. Secondly there isn't some kind of 1 to 1 on intake and exhaust like you seem to think. Haven't you ever put your thumb over the end of a garden hose? You can have different in/out "plumbing" the smaller one just has more pressure.

    Iím not saying the TonyA mod doesnít work. I suspect it does; more cooler air is good. Iím just saying it canít compete with all the surface area of a cone filter.

    There is already a ton of proof out there on LS1 and LS2 engines. So this is really just a test of if the V6 in a CTS can make use of the extra air. I do caution there are tons of pitfalls that could make this test not turn out fair. It should be documented what the engine temps are at every run, how much time elapsed between runs, what was done with the PCM between runs (reset or not), what other mods does the car have, yada yadaÖ
    12 CTS-V | 12 SRX | 09 Z06 | 08 C6 Z51
    05 CTS-V | 04 GTO (Sold)

  4. #154
    HaveBlue is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by AmesCTS-V
    That's only the case if your filter isn't filtering. Since the filter is filtering the suction on the engine side is creating a fairly equal pressure all across the filter surface. It is sucking air from all parts of the filter. Only a certain area is getting really dirty because debris is coming in from the outside and the big (relative term) debris has too much momentum and mass so it's hitting one general area.

    The in/out is also very wrong for several reasons. First of all the exhaust is free flowing, the intake is free flowing, the filter is not. If the exhaust and intake could move some volume of air, you'd want the filter to have more surface areas because it has to filter. If it's the same then it's a choke point, or else you need it to not actually filter. Secondly there isn't some kind of 1 to 1 on intake and exhaust like you seem to think. Haven't you ever put your thumb over the end of a garden hose? You can have different in/out "plumbing" the smaller one just has more pressure.

    Iím not saying the TonyA mod doesnít work. I suspect it does; more cooler air is good. Iím just saying it canít compete with all the surface area of a cone filter.

    There is already a ton of proof out there on LS1 and LS2 engines. So this is really just a test of if the V6 in a CTS can make use of the extra air. I do caution there are tons of pitfalls that could make this test not turn out fair. It should be documented what the engine temps are at every run, how much time elapsed between runs, what was done with the PCM between runs (reset or not), what other mods does the car have, yada yadaÖ
    Finally another voice of reason & experience. A cone filter will flow more air AND filter better than a panel filter.

    Regards the engine temp, ecm etc. We are going to do everything we can to make it a fair test. It's a cool rainy day today and the car will cool down between runs. I have no limit on the dyno time, i.e. we have to be done in a hour, so we can take time to do it right. The shop is very experienced with late model dyno testing. As far as the other mods to the car, none other than the tires and brakes.
    I'm off to the shop now. I plan on posting the numbers when I get back and then scanning all the sheets for posting.
    I have no doubt that the results will be picked to death and challenged. I don't really care. I have no horse in this race.
    So off I go. My next post will be the results.
    BTW car will be running Chevron Premium fuel and always has.
    Scott

  5. #155
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    HaveBlue, I'm sure you will do your best to keep this fair I just know it will be tough since there are an absolute ton of variables.
    12 CTS-V | 12 SRX | 09 Z06 | 08 C6 Z51
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  6. #156
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    HaveBlue,
    Thanks for all your efforts. This is a lot of work! I'm sure all the interested members truly appreciate what you're doing!

    Anxious to see the results to see how much power can be rendered at the intake!

  7. #157
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    I'm betting on the Volant....

  8. #158
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by tomm
    I'm betting on the Volant....
    Tomm
    How much? A happy Meal? You're on.

  9. #159
    HaveBlue is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    OK Guys (and Gals) I just walked in the door.
    First special thanks to Fast Specialties in Vancouver,WA. They let me use their shop and a dyno technition for about 4 hours today at no-charge. If you can throw any business their way it would be appreciated. They do carry Volant and K&N.

    http://home.fastspecialties.com/

    The test results were a little surprising. One thing was very clear, this was a great comparison of the kits but not of the potential of the engine. The motor was pulling right up to the top speed cutoff at 140mph/6000 rpm in 4th gear. It will be very interesting to see how much more it will make with this switched off.

    Test Vehicle, 2006 3.6 VVT 5 speed auto, no modifications to powertrain.
    Shop temperature was a constant 68°
    Car never got hot at all, temp needle straight up the whole time.
    Fuel, Chevron Unleaded Supreme 92 octane
    Dyno operator was experienced in running late model auto trans cars and had no problems slowly rolling on the throttle to prevent a down shit.
    Runs were made in 4th gear, TC off.

    STOCK INTAKE
    splash guard in place, radiator air deflector in place. lower valance panel in place.

    220 RWHP

    TONY A MODIFIED STOCK AIR BOX
    splash guard cut to match opening (supplied by Ody). Lower valance panel removed.

    225 RWHP
    made a few more HP than stock all through the rpm range

    K&N FIPK KIT
    splash guard removed. lower valance panel removed

    A quick spike at the end showed 236 hp but 228 hp what showed on the screen on both runs.

    228RWHP

    VOLANT
    splash guard removed. radiator air deflector folded over to expose front snorkle.

    233 RWHP

    consistant each run.


    IMO the K&N was not worth the addtional noise. The differnce in the 2 intake tubes is obvious when side by side. The K&N take a sharp radius into the throttle body to clear the electric fan mounting stud. The Volant sweels up around the stud in a bulb that allows a clearer entry for the air into the TB. They took the time to do it right.


    Overlayed dyno sheets scanning now.

    There ya go folks.

  10. #160
    HaveBlue is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    Sheet one overlays, Stock, TonyA and Volant
    Sheet two overlays Stock K&N and Volant
    These were the best runs for each set-up. All runs were within 1-2 HP of each other.


  11. #161
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    as a person who has yet to purchase an intake, i'd like to thank everyone involved in "The Great Air Intake Challenge"

  12. #162
    HaveBlue is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge


  13. #163
    HaveBlue is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    Note we even made one K&N run with the hood open. All the air it could handle. Still wouldn't break 228. Gotta be the tube radius. Plus it is horrendously noisy. (open or closed )

  14. #164
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    can you be thanked enough?

  15. #165
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    Re: The Great Air Intake Challenge

    HaveBlue:
    Sincerely appreciate your effort, time and expense.
    Muchos gracias!

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