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Cadillac CTS First Generation Forum - 2003 - 2007 Discussion, Intake manifold in Cadillac CTS Coupe, Sport Sedan and Sport Wagon Forums; This is probably true, but I can see heat coming from other places as well. If it is an issue, ...
  1. #46
    Tlorenzen is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Intake manifold

    This is probably true, but I can see heat coming from other places as well. If it is an issue, like I said there's multiple ways to minimize that problem like ceramic paint or if you want to go crazy even some sort of metal heat shield. Guess well just have to wait and see. Excited to see where this goes.

  2. #47
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    Re: Intake manifold

    Will It fit with the STB ?
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  3. #48
    concorso is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Intake manifold

    Without the valve that affects mpg and power, Im less interested. Ill need to see before and after dyno results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argent1
    Will It fit with the STB ?
    yes everything will fit on stock motor.
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  5. #50
    chevyhighperformance is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Intake manifold

    It looks pretty good. Your plenum volume looks good. It’s tough to tell your plenum height, but if you go too low, you might have a problem with cylinders 1 and 2 running lean. Your resonant frequency for the intake is now pretty high and based mostly on the small upper and longer lower runner length. To get max power, you’ll have to tune (timing, A/F, and VVT) at the upper RPMs. To gain the full potential, you might have to change the valve springs so you can rev higher.

    Your low end torque will probably suffer. Besides low and mid band timing and A/F, you’ll have to really work the VVT tables.

    I don’t know how the idle stability will end up. The PID values will probably need tweaked and probably need to adjust your valve overlap values at idle which will also help your manifold vacuum for your brake booster.

    I worked with the aussie/holden folks developing tunes for this engine about 5+ years ago. I don’t know if any are still doing this stuff or I would point you to one of them. You might consider talking to the aussie’s who developed the other high flow intake about tuning tips or maybe buying their tune as a starting point. There are some parameters that I can’t get to in HPTuners like a true VE table that they would have figured out already.

    Before, the plenum is attached to the upper runners, it’s a good time to port match the upper and lower runners along with port matching any thermal spacers.

    I don’t know if the lid will resonate, but you can always weld a brace on the top to stop any resonance.

    Plug change and precat O2 sensor change is easier now.

    Since the stock upper manifold parallel/independent paths are gone, you probably don’t need PCV lines on either side of the plenum, probably one in the center somewhere would be fine. If you have SS scouring pads in your oil catch can, you should be able to stop a significant amount of oil from getting in your plenum.
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  7. #52
    Tlorenzen is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Lookin good man. Gettin excited.

  8. #53
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    Re: Intake manifold

    Excellent post by chevyhighperformance. Quite a bit more to this than just slapping on a new intake manifold. It will be interesting to see how the tuning side of the project works out.

    ztollon, I fixed a couple of your earlier picture links so that they show up in the thread correctly. Here are a few more from your photobucket. Obviously the first couple are from earlier when you were still putting the plenum together.







    Quote Originally Posted by ztollon View Post
    ... and another butterfly mechanism. I forgot the technical term for it but it opens at higher rpms to increase air flow in the intake.
    It doesn't increase air flow in the intake, it just changes the size of the plenum seen by each bank of runners, which in turn changes the torque peak. If you look at where the butterfly valve is located, it just splits the plenum in half. A small plenum gives a better torque curve at low RPM, and a larger plenum gives a better torque curve at high RPMs. With the valve shut at low RPMs, each half of the engine sees a small plenum, and when the valve opens at higher RPM the cylinders see a larger plenum. Subaru used the same thing on their EG33 (the old 3.3L SVX flat-6 engine) and the EZ30 ('01-04 Outback 3.0L H-6 engine) - Subaru calls it the "Iris valve", but I don't know where that name comes from.

    Although the intake manifolds look very different, you can see the configuration is functionally the same. Here's a picture of the underside of my EZ30 intake manifold - you can see the air comes in through the throttle body (flange at the top of the picture) and splits into two legs to feed the two banks of 3 runners (just like the LY7 intake manifold does). The two halves of the plenum are separated by the Iris valve, which I've pulled out in this picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by ztollon View Post
    Currently I have the butterfly removed from my stock intake. It's sitting in the engine bay plugged in. Purpose of this valve is pretty much just for fuel economy. It separates the back two cylinders which are the only two that cross between the two intake banks, and opens at high rpms. Ive had it off for about three weeks and have never gotten a check engine light or misfire. Just a bit more airflow and maybe a slight performance gain, I did loose .5mpg but oh [well].
    I doubt it has any effect on fuel economy, as I said above it's to help generate a broader torque curve. If you google for "LY7 variable intake manifold" you'll find this description on a number of sites: "The aluminum intake manifold has a valve in its plenum, managed by the engine control module (ECM), which opens and closes according to engine speed. At idle, the valve is open. From just past idle to mid rpm, the valve closes and effectively creates two separate plenums, each feeding the intake runners and ports for half of the cylinders. This optimizes airflow at lower engine speeds to maximize low-end torque. At higher engine speeds, the plenum plate opens, creating a single, higher-volume plenum feeding all cylinders for freer breathing and high-rev horsepower. The variable intake manifold (VIM) allows optimal airflow for a given engine speed without the compromises of a fixed-volume plenum. In combination with cam phasing, it means impressively linear torque delivery."

    Quote Originally Posted by ztollon View Post
    So now the only current issue is trying to eliminate the butterfly completely by removing it, if that's the direction I want to go. Now my question. Is there something I can use, say for example a resistor to make the computer think it's still there so you don't get a check engine light? Lol you can actually see what I'm talking about. It's just to the right of the intake kinda facing us.
    I'm not sure why you're worried about it if you said you've driven around with it unplugged for 3 weeks and the ECU never tripped a CEL.

    With that said, how is the butterfly valve operated? On the Subaru, a vacuum actuator is what actually moves the Iris valve, and that actuator is triggered by a solenoid valve. (You can see those parts pretty clearly in the pictures I linked above.) Is the LY7 setup similar to that? If so, you could measure the resistance of the solenoid and just replace it with some resistors to dummy the ECU.

    Quote Originally Posted by concorso View Post
    Without the valve that affects mpg and power, I[']m less interested. I[']ll need to see before and after dyno results.
    I would think you'd want to see dyno results whether there was a butterfly valve in there or not. Have you (or anyone else) done dyno testing to see how the butterfly valve affects the stock intake manifold? Seems kind of silly to discount ztollon's design because it doesn't use the butterfly valve without knowing what the effect of the butterfly valve is to begin with.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

  9. #54
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    Re: Intake manifold

    The pictures above were from the previous aluminum model, not currently in use. As for the butterfly, it is removed from the intake, not from the engine bay. I built a plate to put over the valve opening.. and left it plugged in to not trip a cel..
    I have very little loss in mpg, mybe a slight of a loss in torque.. I do have a dead spot now in my rpm band, its right around 2100-2500 that's probably the butterfly. but still nothing significant to even make me want to put it back on.. and considering the manifolds pretty much ready to bolt on, im just going to leave it.

  10. #55
    onetouch123 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    I think that deadspot in rpm could be fixed with the vmax tb when it finally comes out but after seeing those pics damn that think looks nanners with polishing on the outside

  11. #56
    concorso is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Intake manifold

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    I would think you'd want to see dyno results whether there was a butterfly valve in there or not. Have you (or anyone else) done dyno testing to see how the butterfly valve affects the stock intake manifold? Seems kind of silly to discount ztollon's design because it doesn't use the butterfly valve without knowing what the effect of the butterfly valve is to begin with.
    We already know what the effect is on the stock intake, we just dont know how much. I also agree it would be silly, which is why I didnt say I was uninterested, but simply less interested. If this intake makes the same or more from approx 3000 onwards then the stock version and the bottom doesnt drop off completely below that, it doesnt matter too much to me that it doesn't use the valve. I would just like it incorporated as Ive felt the effect it makes and like the idea of it. The dyno comment was one Ive said before, even before I knew he wasnt planning to use the butterfly valve.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chevyhighperformance View Post
    I worked with the aussie/holden folks developing tunes for this engine about 5+ years ago. I don’t know if any are still doing this stuff or I would point you to one of them. You might consider talking to the aussie’s who developed the other high flow intake about tuning tips or maybe buying their tune as a starting point. There are some parameters that I can’t get to in HPTuners like a true VE table that they would have figured out already.
    Has there ever been an explanation why HPTuners doesnt offer support for the 5L40?

  12. #57
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    All done just waiting until Monday to get longer bolts and to paint it. looks nicer in person.







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  13. #58
    chevyhighperformance is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Intake manifold

    Quote Originally Posted by concorso
    Has there ever been an explanation why HPTuners doesnt offer support for the 5L40?
    I heard a rumor that they had tranny tuning a while ago, but there was an issue so it was dropped. It could have been that there were many different variations of TCMs - I don't remember. It's a shame because I could easily add 3-4 MPG from a good tranny tune.

    They told me that there is not that much overall interest and working with the Bosch programming is very difficult. They spent more time on the 3.6L then they typically spend on other engines. That's why the cost is $200 per ECU ID versus $100-$150 per ECU ID for other engines. GM hates the programming too. If you look at other VVT engines, the programming is done more traditionally. For example, we have four timing tables which get blended based on the intake and exhaust valve angles. The new VVT engine programming only has the traditional high octane and low octane timing tables. Sorry for rambling.
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  14. #59
    onetouch123 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Bump for 08 6l50e swap off ly7 model. It might not be too much $$$ if you know how to do the work. But I dont know a ton about transmissions, but from what Ive read there roughly close in size dimensions and bolt up in the same spots.

  15. #60
    Tlorenzen is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Intake manifold

    Looks very good man. So excited to see someone actually doing something with this car. Just curious, roughly how much actual fab time do you have on this version? Keep up the good work man.

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