Oil Catch can update - Page 3
Cadillac
 

Cadillac Forums | Help Us Help You | Advertise | Cadillac Parts | Cadillac News | Cadillac Classifieds / (Old System)

Cadillac Technical Archive | Cadillac Dealers | Cadillac Reviews | Cadillac Dealer Reviews | Cadillac Vendors

CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 31 to 41 of 41
Like Tree6Likes
Cadillac CTS First Generation Forum - 2003 - 2007 Discussion, Oil Catch can update in Cadillac CTS Coupe, Sport Sedan and Sport Wagon Forums; ok...cant argue with a guy that makes them but in fairness, mine is doing its job collecting dirt and whatever ...
  1. #31
    ghettomike's Avatar
    ghettomike is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 03 CTS 3.2L (Sold) / 09 CBR 600rr /2014 GMC Sierra
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    off the grid.
    Age
    30
    Posts
    7,891

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    ok...cant argue with a guy that makes them but in fairness, mine is doing its job collecting dirt and whatever else tries to pass through that air line. maybe it isnt doing all it can do, but its doing quite a bit and at $30 shipped to my door im not complaining.
    now, with that said.. the air hose that came with it was garbage and its currently used as a thread protector for my boat seat. using fuel hose is the best way to go IMO because it can take the pressure and the heat.

    so, whats the cost of yours?
    i see you have a few.
    Ikera likes this.

  2. #32
    RCVW's Avatar
    RCVW is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): "Angel Dust" 2004 White Diamond CTS 3.6L-V
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Queens, NYC
    Age
    26
    Posts
    381
    I want to run a can myself but i have a volant kit from a 3.2 on my 3.6 and didnt get the air duct...had to make a custom one and my pcv on the drivers side is just "loose" and with a breather filter on it. If i were to get a proper catch can, where exactly do i run it from this connection? Ive seen some cans with just one inlet and a breather on top, drain on bottom and thought to try that route since i cant connect it back into the tb area.

  3. #33
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,632

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    ghetto, ANY device that traps and reduces oil is a benefit...but does nothing to cure the harmfull effects from the oil still getting past, but is far better than nothing. The goal is to prevent the gunk buildup on the valves, excess carbon build up on the piston tops, combustion chambers, and the ring lands and you will still have that issue using the $30 unit you have.

    The system for the CTS no forced induction is $139 complete.

    RCVW, on the drivers side is the "clean side" and if running just a breather with no flow control then the ECU is getting conlicting data from the MAF and the upstream O2's and the early V6's also have a MAP sensor....so the un controlled air coming in the open breather results in the data sent from the 3 sources all falls outside of the parameters the ECU is expecting and your fuel trims will go crazy trying to adapt, so if you run a breather it must be obe that is calibrated for the flow the ECU expects to see....to date RX is the only company with the different flow breathers.

    The catchcan installs inline on the "dirty side" which is the barb on the rear of the passenger side valve cover that needs to be removed and drilled out larger and the center of your intake manifold. The inlet of the can (center of the RX can) connects to the orfice barb, and the outer valve on the can to the intake manifold vac port on top.


  4. #34
    ShapeShifter's Avatar
    ShapeShifter is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): 2006 CTS Sport w/Wheel Performance & Sport Appearance Pkgs
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Age
    62
    Posts
    807

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    The L&S sytem works pretty well with one serios flaw.....it returns the contaminate laden oil to the crankcase where it accelerates the engine wear.

    This is another area most do not understand...you MUST remove the damaging combustion byproducts from the crankcase, not reintroduce them:

    Understanding oil contamination from combustion byproducts




    The evac system is not for the environment....it is to keep the engine alive and wear free as long as possible. Your not alone and 99% of car owners never think about it or realize whats happening over time. And yes, most will drive 50-75-100k plus miles and never know the damage gradually being done.

    My qualifications?

    over 35 years building race and performance engines.
    Mechanical & Automotive engineer by trade
    Graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school (one of the most respected in the world and a GM R&D contractor).
    Owner and driver of drag teams with multiple Divisional, National & World championships in both NHRA & IHRA in several classes (this is where every minute detail in an engine matters)
    And I tear down and build most every kind/brand of motor imaginable (except diesel) on a weekly basis.

    So here goes:

    Every motor has a certain amount of blow-by, the bigger the CI & the more boost the more blow-by (with everything else assumed is equal and no piston/ring/cylinder issue).

    Most only look at the crankcase pressure portion and deal with that and that is only a small part of the crankcase evac systems function. The most important is the flushing & removal of the harmful combustion products before they have a chance to condense & settle into the crankcase oil.

    These consist of:

    Unburnt fuel
    Carbon monoxide
    water vapor
    carbon particles
    and several other harmful compounds that when mixed in the crankcase produce Sulfuric acid and as that accumulates past a certain PPM the bearing surfaces, wrist pins, and crank journals begin to be etched and start to damage. This is gradual of course so that’s why like you, most never realize whats happening.

    The other very harmful byproduct is the very abrasive carbon particles (near diamond-like in abrasiveness) that many are to small to be caught by the oil filter and accelerate wear as well.

    If you have a good cross flow of filtered fresh air entering one side of the crankcase (best is through a flow controlled breather), say the pass side oil fill cap, that fresh air will travel through the pass side valve cover, around the rockers, down the pushrod valley, through the center of the crankcase, (now on the LS6/2/3 valley cover with the fixed orifice it exits there drawn by vacuum so 1/2 the engine is still stagnant with foul compounds...especially the drivers side rocker area) up the drivers side pushrod valley, past the rockers and exits the rear of the drivers side valve cover flushing and pulling the compounds out BEFORE they can settle and condense into the crankcase. Now with out that flow the compounds settle and mix with the oil every time the engine cools. When started and run to operating temp the volatile of those are "flashed off" and again could be evacuated but if just venting with breathers, ONLY the excess crankcase pressure will exit and very little of the harmful compound mix goes with it and once the abrasive carbon particles mix with the oil they are there to stay reducing the protection your oil provides. Now if changing your oil after every track event then this is not an issue. But with a street driven car it is and I can tell you to just look at how dirt your oil gets as far as coloration when you eliminate the evacuation portion of a PCV system, but that tells very little. Send in an oil sample to a good analysis lab and the report back will verify everything I'm saying. The over the road trucking industry does this as a rule, and we do with our race engines as well looking for metal content that tells us a bearing is going away before we could ever detect it and knowing to freshen before a catastrophic failure.

    Now back to the LS engine. Any built, big cube, or FI motor cannot breath using the valley cover fixed orifice as it is far to restrictive and excess pressure is a given. So we never use the valley cover vent tube but draw from the rear of the drivers side valve cover.

    Now we come to the issue of FI builds that pressurize the intake manifold. Turbo or front mount centri SC systems, the problem with the OEM style system is as soon as you are under boost and the intake is under positive atmosphere you are pressurizing the crankcase directly via the vacuum nipple that evacs under non boost.

    The only true solution for street driven cars is a oil separating crankcase evac system that will provide proper, continuous evac while operating under non-boost via the intake vacuum, and as soon as it senses pressurization a check valve senses this and closes blocking any chance of crankcase pressurization. Then as this happens a secondary valve opens and uses the suction/vacuum of the head unit to continue evacuation while the separating can traps & removes all the oil in suspension allowing only the gasses that do not effect the energy released per explosive event (you do NOT want ANY oil entering the intake air charge or residue/varnish forming on the compressor wheels throwing them off balance).

    No oil caused detonation, no shortened engine life/increased wear, and the best of everything you need for the motor to perform properly & last as long as possible.
    Not an Engineer or Professional Mechanic, but for the most I get what you’re saying. However, my only concern with making a judgment on the Separators contribution to the oils quality based on the results of an Oil Analysis (OA) is; given the operating environment of a combustion engine, the quality of the oil in any given sample could contain contaminates from sources other than those returned from the L&S Separator.

    Given this concern, I’d need an analysis done solely on the substance being returned to the crankcase by the L&S Separator. I’m not sure how I could capture just that substance or how much of it would be needed to do an accurate analysis.

    Bottom Line for me: Wouldn’t feel confident in contributing any contamination, if found in my engine crankcase oil, solely to the L&S Separator based on results from OA.

  5. #35
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,632

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Along with the oil trapped in any can are the damaging combustion byproducts that are enacuated while still in a suspended or gaseous state. That is the purpose from the earliest days in the 30's,40's and 50's with the down-draft venturi tube. Motors were not lasting 10-20k miles and oil analysis was in its infancy, but the engineers soon discovered the amount of harmful contaminates that is not evacuated while still suspended, they contaminate the oil.

    The most damaging are the sulfuric acid that forms when moisture mixes with hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel, etc. ) that will etch your bearing and journal surfacesafter reach a certain PPM, the fine carbon particles are very abrasive (carbon is used in many abrisives) and the smallest cannot be caught by the oil filter, and the un-burnt fuel (all motors have a certain amount). These when they first escaped past the piston rings are in a suspended or gasseous state....and while the motor is at operating temp are evacuated out into your intake air charge and pulled through the combustion chamber to be burnt and further in the catalytic converters. When you add a catchcan to separate and condense the oil out to keep it from ingesting, you are also condensing and coalescing the damaging contaminates into this same oil you just trapped. If you return this oil to the crankcase you are defeating a good portion of the PCV systems function (most only look at it as a release of crankcase pressure which it does as well). It is critical to remove these before they condense......so the system is fine with that exception. you NEVER reintroduce contaminated oil to the crankcase.

    Do some research on companies like Alfa Laval that use a cenrifuge type function for their industrial diesel oil separators to separate and filter out these componds before the trapped oil is returned to the crankcase. These are not practical for a car or light truck as prices start at $8-12K and up...but most every container ship, train, industrial generator system will have one.

    This is also the reason why just deleting a crankcase evac system and adding a couple breathers results in engine damage over time.....the compounds are never evacuated. Every time the motor cools, the vapors condense and the contaminates mix with the oil.

    The proper crankcase evac system has a clean air source that enters one part of a crankcase, travels through flushing the compoundswith it as it is all drawn out another paet of the crankcase, preferably the opposite valve cover to ensure no stagnant or dead spots.


    read this link on technical training on PCV systems:

    http://www.counterpersontraining.com...ain&topicid=38

    and this on wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankca...ilation_system

    and more:

    http://www.ehow.com/facts_7639553_pc...e-vehicle.html


    Almost no techs today or tuner shops understand any but the most rudimentry function of crankcase evacuation and thats why so many products are on the market not designed properly, and so many are spreading mis-information down to the plian ignorant.
    It does not matter how big of a name is on a product, it is if it is designed properly with ALL consiquences taken into the design process.....and why so many fight on the internet forums on the subject. It isnt taught anymore....and finding the correct info is difficult....but take the time to read not just what I say....but the automotive industry engineers that do understand it.
    There are several systems on the market that do a good job of separating the oil, but return the oil to the crankcase having no idea of this very important function of the PCV system.

    I guarantee you are reintroducing very harmful compounds if using that system.

    You can clamp the return oil line and let it accumulate in the separator itself and send that in for analysis.

  6. #36
    454Casull is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2005 Cadillac CTS 2.8L 6MT
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    386

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    You can clamp the return oil line and let it accumulate in the separator itself and send that in for analysis.
    If he does that, nothing's going to go into the catch can.

  7. #37
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,632

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    The website shows the return is on the bottom and so he can just clamp the oil return and still catch the oil....just dosent return it to the crankcase so he can send it in for analtsis.

  8. #38
    454Casull is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2005 Cadillac CTS 2.8L 6MT
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    386

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    The website shows the return is on the bottom and so he can just clamp the oil return and still catch the oil....just dosent return it to the crankcase so he can send it in for analtsis.
    What I mean to say is that once the return is clamped, there will be zero air velocity, so what's going to bring the oil in?

  9. #39
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,632

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Not following you....the can has 3 fittings, should be one to vacuum source to draw in vapors, one to crankcase (valve cover or valley vent) and one to return oil to the crankcase. If you clamp the one returning oil to the crankcase the unit should still trap the oil just as well, but it will not be returning to the crankcase.

    Let me know if they run it differently as I cant imagine it could work properly w/out a vacuum source drawing vapors from the crankcase.....and the bottom line appears to be the line returning oil to the crankcase by the pictures they provide......

  10. #40
    ShapeShifter's Avatar
    ShapeShifter is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): 2006 CTS Sport w/Wheel Performance & Sport Appearance Pkgs
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Age
    62
    Posts
    807

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Maybe his confusion is because he didn’t understand that what I have on my truck is not considered a Catch Can; it’s actually a Maintenance Free “Oil Separator” that sits atop the Oil Filler Opening. So the return mentioned on mine is actually a small metal tube on the bottom of the Seperator that’s inserted through a modified Oil Filler Cap with a hole in it. The oil or substances in question passes through the tube and goes back into the crankcase, hence, the reason this Separator is considered Maintenance Free. That return tube also has an O Ring on the underside of the filler cap to prevent un-metered air from entering or gases from escaping the crankcase.

    Guess I could remove the filler cap and separator, and then reinstall my OEM Oil Filler Cap. I would then need to place a hose on the end of separators tube and connect the other end to some type of air tight container so I could collect the substance that’s normally returned to the crankcase. It would take me quite a while to collect a reasonable amount of returned substance as I only drive the truck about 30-50 miles a month. For now, I’ll just leave things as is. May pose similar questions in the F-150 Lightning and Harley Forms to get a feel for their concerns, but I do know that there are a number of supercharged truck owners who actually run what’s deemed as a far better “Catch Can” setup.

    FWIW, here’s a pic of my Oil Separator.

  11. #41
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,632

    Re: Oil Catch can update

    Yes...I understand now looking at you pictures and your explanation. You may not be trapping as much of the harmfull compounds, but if it effectively traps the oil it traps the damaging compounds right along with it. Oil is trapped by coalescing or condensing. The combustion byproducts do as well. But if you would test the way your suggesting it would be an asset to everyone to see just how much contamination is being returned to the crankcase instead of evacuated into the combustion chamber while still in a gasseous state.

    The only system that can be "maintanance free" is from Alfa Laval and a couple other companies. They run from $7k and up and have a centrifuge spinning through a cleanable filtration system that filters the oil under pressure before returning it to the crankcase.

    http://www.dolphinmarine.com/centrif...FU2R7QodQ064kA
    http://www.alfalaval.com/industries/...treatment.aspx

    (Note, Alfa laval makes these for crankcase evacuation, waste oil, fuel oil, etc.)

    Here is the GT500 and Ford Lightning application:


Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting