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Cadillac CTS First Generation Forum - 2003 - 2007 Discussion, 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons) in Cadillac CTS Coupe, Sport Sedan and Sport Wagon Forums; Originally Posted by bobcat68 The engine has 155,000 miles on it. We bought the car new. My wife drove it ...
  1. #61
    simple2me's Avatar
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    The engine has 155,000 miles on it. We bought the car new. My wife drove it until we gave it to my daughter. She has driven it for the last 2 years. The oil was changed according to the DIC with Mobile 1 until my daughter got the car and she was putting in regular oil. The engine rattle on starting about 1 1/2 years ago. Normally we bumped the throttle and it went away. The car was using about a quart of oil every other fill up. The car began to run bad so I took it to a shop and they said it was a chain guide and repaired it for me. Ha! I wish I'd known about this problem and forum before the engine got bad. Obviously it wasn't repaired. Ktr-sb, your photos have been a tremendous help and have given me the confidence to tackle the rebuild. With briggy and simple 2me write-ups and photos I feel the rebuild is doable. Right now I can't figure out how to get the catalytic converters off so I can pull the heads. I'm not buying any parts until I pull the heads to have them looked at. I can't find a decent low milage LY7 at a good price. I'd rather rebuild what I have than spend money on a high milage engine.
    The CATS are a booger to get off. Once you remove the exhaust manifold heat shields (several parts need to be removed before accessing those) you can use a swivel, socket and a long extension or two medium length extensions to remove the CATS. Everything is hidden under the heat shields and they are sort of difficult to remove. Patience is definitely needed when working on these cars. Make sure you have the O2's unplugged before removing the bolts or you'll be spending a couple hundred extra bucks to buy new ones.

  2. #62
    ktr-sb is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    The engine has 155,000 miles on it. We bought the car new. My wife drove it until we gave it to my daughter. She has driven it for the last 2 years. The oil was changed according to the DIC with Mobile 1 until my daughter got the car and she was putting in regular oil.
    Based on your and my experience, I would say these well-designed engines do not tolerate conventional or blended motor oils at all, and the consequence is wear in the timing chain link pivot holes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    Ktr-sb, your photos have been a tremendous help and have given me the confidence to tackle the rebuild. With briggy and simple 2me write-ups and photos I feel the rebuild is doable.
    My pleasure. I haven't gone as far as you intend, but will probably pull this motor at 200K and replace the bearings, rings and valve stem seals. I did not break this engine in right and have never been happy with the oil consumption, which has gotten worse in the last 25K miles. Again, these engines take a lot of abuse and keep running strong - I put 161K on plugs designed to go 100K.

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    ktr-sb is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by apribby View Post
    Interesting. Is this an early engine? What's your vehicle build date? There was a bulletin about the noise you describe. Inspect the crankshaft harmonic balancer. If the vehicle was built with the three-spoke design crankshaft harmonic balancer, the fix was to replace the harmonic balancer with P/N 12597654.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by simple2me View Post
    The CATS are a booger to get off. Once you remove the exhaust manifold heat shields (several parts need to be removed before accessing those) you can use a swivel, socket and a long extension or two medium length extensions to remove the CATS. Everything is hidden under the heat shields and they are sort of difficult to remove. Patience is definitely needed when working on these cars. Make sure you have the O2's unplugged before removing the bolts or you'll be spending a couple hundred extra bucks to buy new ones.
    I finally got the heat shields off. I see what you mean removing several items. I've been soaking the bolts with Blaster and hope to unbolt tonight. Thanks for the info on the O2 sensors. I'll get those unplugged.

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    apribby is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by ktr-sb View Post
    Interesting. Is this an early engine? What's your vehicle build date? There was a bulletin about the noise you describe. Inspect the crankshaft harmonic balancer. If the vehicle was built with the three-spoke design crankshaft harmonic balancer, the fix was to replace the harmonic balancer with P/N 12597654.
    Date on the driver door says 01/2004

    Thanks, I had previously seen the TSB on the harmonic balancer. I checked that first but I already had the 6 spoke design.

    One thing I am noticing is that the timing set came with a thicker primary chain and wider gears for the crank and two intermediate. I wonder if this is what is indicated by the "silent" 39 link primary chain on the box. I did not previously have the thick primary chain on my car. It was the same design as the other two chains, just a bit shorter with smaller teeth on the old crank gear.

    I've heard others with the 04 model receive this upgrade when getting the replacement chain. Funny thing though is that the set is the same Product # (76159) as Doug In NC but mine did not come with the cam sprockets. There seems to be variances in the product in different states. My set was $253.99. Some people say it costs them around $200, while others swear autozone stopped selling them in 2011...weird

    Anyway, I'll be putting the car back together over the next few days and will note my results.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Here are some more pictures after the tear down of the front of the engine. You cab see the effects of not using synthetic oil.
    IMG_0365.JPG
    IMG_0366.JPG
    IMG_0367.JPG
    IMG_0368.JPG

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    That's nasty! What do the heads look like? I'm using conventional oil in mine and I've had the valve covers off since putting the motor in and it's super clean. Did you change the oil when the DIC said it was due or by mileage?

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    Here are some more pictures after the tear down of the front of the engine. You cab see the effects of not using synthetic oil.
    Yup, v similar to mine, and following factory OCI per the OLM. But I never went full conventional.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    The oil had been changed pretty much by the DIC. We always used a quick-lube place. Usually I checked the oil and topped up about every other tank while my wife drove the car. I'm starting to wonder what oil was being put in the car at the lube place. When my daughter started driving the car (2 years ago), I didn't check the oil as much because all her trips were within a 30 mile radius of the house and we only put gas in for limited trips. Had I been reading this forum, I might have saved myself a rebuild. I'm not a mechanic, but I have enjoyed working on the car even with some of the frustration. I'll post photos when I have the heads pulled off. I usually work on the car after work most evenings for about 1-2 hours after the temp gets below 100. The heat has been crazy here in central Texas the last few weeks. I've got a big fan that makes things bearable. The cars is in the shade in my driveway.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    I usually work on the car after work most evenings for about 1-2 hours after the temp gets below 100. The heat has been crazy here in central Texas the last few weeks.
    You're probably not that far from me. I live north of San Antonio. I feel your pain. I have a project taking up my garage so everything else is literally done in the shade as well:


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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    I'm just up the road in Geronimo.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    I got the drivers side head off. This was the head in a previous photo that the timing chain had broken. The valve are bent and the rocker arm of one of the valves was broken.

    IMG_0376.JPG

    Once I get the passenger side head off, I'll check the pistons and piston walls to make sure the bottom end is still in good shape. If the bottom end is in good shape I'll take the cylinder heads in to see about having them rebuilt.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    The valve are bent and the rocker arm of one of the valves was broken.
    Yikes. Make sure no rods are bent or shortened.

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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat68 View Post
    Here are some more pictures after the tear down of the front of the engine. You cab see the effects of not using synthetic oil.
    Mine looks a bit worse lol. I am in the process of replacing the timing chain as I am typing this up. Prior to removal, My timing on the left bank chain is spot on. The primary chain timing is on point too. My problem is that the right bank timing chain (pass side) is off its timing by half a link (or one gear tooth off). Will this be a problem if I set it back the same way? HELP!!

    P.S The mechanic that is assisting me did not feel like removing the chain without confirmation.

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    We ended up proceeding with the swap but we didn't get to finish because we are missing a few seals and onetime lower primary chain guide.

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