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05 CTS 3.6L timing chain job, tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

191K views 144 replies 47 participants last post by  RyanY 
#1 · (Edited)
Subject: 05 CTS with the 3.6L with Approximately 70-75,000 Miles.
Complaint: Timing Chain Rattle, 2+ quarts oil consumption between 3,000 mile intervals using 10w30 syn (viscosity increased due to chain noise), Phantom Coolant Leak







The preliminary parts needs were met by RockAuto.com, additional parts were sourced from the dealer as well as Autozone. The timing chain set was from Autozone specifically and was reasonably priced compared to what one might expect to piece it all together at the dealer.




The cosmetic engine cover is removed here:



The air inlet assembly below is to be removed. The small hose shown on is the fresh air inlet for the PCV system. Basically, fresh, filtered air is led to the driver's side valve cover from this hose.




The fresh air tube continues to the back side of the valve cover.



It enters here, just below the vacuum line leading to the brake booster, and just behind the rear most coil.



One dirty air filter:



One dirty throttle body:




With the air cleaner assembly out of the way you can see the belts and work on removing the radiator fan module.





After the belts came off and the fans came out I moved on to the wiper cowl. I used a battery terminal puller to remove the passenger side arm and simply pressed firmly on the driver's side to release the arms from the wiper pivots.



The passenger side cowl is held in by some 8mm (I think) screws. Once removed you can pull the passenger side portion toward the front of the car as well as towards the driver's front fender in order to remove it.




The driver's side is held in by a 10mm nut screwed in to the left fender essentially.
 
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#104 ·
And you still want to argue about a catchcan not needed with all these pictures showing it is a must. The valve tupis (port side) are where the build up has a negative effect on the volumetric efficiency.
With a catchcan none of these deposits will be present as you are stopping it before it causes the buildup seen. You just wont give up trying to mislead people here will you.

Clean valves are a must. The engine is designed with the shape of the ports and valve tulips to be as effieciant as possible, yet you claim these deposits are fine?

Amazing the level you are stooping to to confuse those that want to keep their engine running like new.

If there is anyone that actually wants to learn more, ask details and I will provide any data needed, but common sense should prevail here just by looking at these pictures. Gunk up your valves and the ports leading to them and you have decreased the ability for the air to flow as designed thus less power and poor fuel economy.

The drill mod is a good contribution....we have been posting this for over 2 years.....you have no debate from me on that, but this is beyond any wild imagination. The deposits are bad for the power and efficiency of any motor.
 
#105 ·
Directly from GM:



Engnineering Systems


Cadillac Owners Member


Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 2


Re: How to Clean The PCV tube on 05' CTS 3.6



I usually lurk in the background, but this is getting out of hand. SC2150 has the up-most knowledge on this matter and I have personally been to his shop and inspected engines both with and without catch cans. It is in fact a fact that without fuel spraying on the valve stems that they will in fact lose efficiency and need cleaning, this is published by GM.


Service Information
Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help
2011 Cadillac CTS | CTS VIN D Service Manual | Document ID: 2863222
#PIP5029: Engine Misfires Due To Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And/Or Exhaust Valves - (May 29, 2012)
Subject: Engine Misfires Due To Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And/Or Exhaust Valves

Models: 2008 - 2012 Cadillac CTS, STS
2008 - 2010 Chevrolet Cobalt SS, HHR SS
2007 - 2010 Pontiac Solstice GXP
2007 - 2010 Saturn Sky Redline
2009 - 2012 Buick Enclave
2009 - 2012 Buick Lacrosse
2009 - 2012 Chevrolet Traverse
2009 - 2012 GMC Acadia
2009 Saturn Outlook
2010 - 2012 Cadillac SRX
2010 - 2012 Chevrolet Camaro, Equinox
2010 - 2012 GMC Terrain
With any of the Following Direct Injected Gasoline Engines:
2.0 (RPO LNF)
2.4L (RPO LAF, LEA, or LUK)
2.8L (RPO LAU)
3.0L (RPO LF1)
3.6L (RPO LFX or LLT)

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Some customers may complain of a MIL and engine misfire. In some cases, the misfire may be more apparent on a cold start, may count on a single cylinder or several cylinders, and may or may not be felt by the driver. Upon inspection, the technician will find one or more misfire codes (DTC P0300-P0306) stored in the ECM and SI diagnosis may or may not isolate the cause of the misfire depending on whether the intake/exhaust valves are sticking at the time of the diagnosis.

This may be the result of major carbon build up on the intake and/or exhaust valves as shown below so the misfires should not have appeared until the engine has accumulated around 5,000 miles or more.





.







Recommendation/Instructions:

If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis. If SI diagnosis isolates a valve sealing concern and/or eliminates everything else external to the engine, decarbon the engine with Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner by following the guidelines below:

Important Extreme care must be taken not to hydrolock the engine when inducing the cleaner, especially if it is induced without Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A. If too much cleaner is induced at too low of a RPM, or if you force the engine to stall by inducing too much cleaner at once, the engine may hydrolock and bend a connecting rod(s).
1. In a well-ventilated area with the engine at operating temperature, slowly/carefully induce a bottle of GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injection Cleaner into the engine with RPM off of idle enough to prevent it from stalling (typically around 2,000 RPM or so). Depending on the engine configuration, induce the cleaner through the throttle body or an engine vacuum hose/pipe. For best results, it is suggested to induce the cleaner with Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A (shown below).
2. Turn the engine off after inducing the cleaner and allow the cleaner to soak with the engine off for 2.5 to 3 hours (Do not let cleaner soak for more than 3 hours as remaining deposits may start to harden back up again).
3. Add a bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment Plus to the fuel tank and fill the vehicle with one of the Top Tier gasolines listed at http://www.toptiergas.com and/or in the latest version of 04-06-04-047 (USA) or 05-06-04-022 (Canada). See Bulletin 05-00-89-078 for more details on GM Fuel System Treatment Plus.
4. Test drive the vehicle extensively to circulate the GM Fuel System Treatment Plus, which will help to eliminate/reduce any remaining intake valve deposits.
5. Re-evaluate the concern to determine if it is repaired or improved at all. If the concern is improved but not repaired, it may be necessary to perform the above decarboning process a 2nd time.



6. To complete the repairs, advise the customer to only use one of the Top Tier Gasolines listed at http://www.toptiergas.com and/or in the latest version of 04-06-04-047 (USA) or 05-06-04-022 (Canada) to minimize future deposits. It can also be recommended to add a bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment Plus at every oil change as mentioned in the latest version of 04-06-04-051.
Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A
Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.


WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© 2012 General Motors. All rights reserved.

By utilizing the catch can you will reduce to eliminate most of the deposits that build up on the valve stems, I have had one on my engine now for quite a while and using a bore light I have seen very little to no build up, and especially I have not had to have this costly cleaning done. If I had not had this catch can I would have spent over twice the cost for upper induction cleanings. I am in the Industry and see the added benefit of using this system. SO before you try and dis-credit SC2150 you better have a lot more than your un-proven opinion and back up your shortcomings with real world facts.

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#107 ·
You wont quit will you.....all catchcans are not the same, and no catch can causes fuel dilution...it is impossible, RX or other.

I think his pictures show pretty much "real world" and the fact that this is what we do....build and rebuild engines, and every picture except yours shows the gunk build-up.

The gunk buiuldup is caused by the oil ingestion.....trap the oil before it is ingested and you have no buildup plain and simple.
And it has been pointed out over and over again "NO FUEL TOUCHES the intake side of the valves where the gunk deposits form.....so it does not matter what fuel is used on DI motors. The fuel is introduced directly into the combustion chamber on the only in the combustion chamber for a milisecond. For a top tier fuel, or fuel additive to have any effect on keep valves clean it has to be a port injected or carburated engine where the aitr/fuel mixture passes the intake side of the valves allowing it to contack the sureface where the deposits form.
 
#108 ·
Top Tier Fuel is recommended to keep fuel system clean and injectors clean, since no fuel touches the valves on DI motors, you need to either perform regular upper induction cleanings or use a catch can. A catch can cannot "make" oil, it only collects. GM will not use a catch can due to the normal owners not understanding how to utilize it and due to emissions, all contaminants need to be kept within the motor. ktr-sb, you need to get a grip on reality, this is only a preventative maintenance and it will help keep you engine clean, if you choose not to do it then bring it to my shop so I can hose you for a 150.00 upper induction cleaning every 40-60k. or pay once for a catch can and prolong the life of your engine. Even Ferraris and masseratis of the day utilize one to keep ingestion down.
 
#109 ·
i think ktr-sb's point is that he's done no upper induction cleanings and only used top tier gas and has a very nice looking intake (sure some carbon build up but not major)

the one main issue that has been touched upon but not really brought to the forefront is that ktr-sb's engine is not DI and does spray gas on the valve stems and tops of the valves
 
#111 ·
On a port injection motor if top tier fuels are used (what ktr-sb has) then you can drive 200 k miles and have good clean intake valves, not so on a DI engine of any brand. Here is a compilation of pictures submitted by techs from all over the world from every manufacturer you can think of (even new motor cycles with DI):

http://www.google.com/search?q=inta...gSW9oDQDg&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=2021&bih=875

ktr-sb has a personal vendetta aginst me and his BS (even though much of what he contributes is good, this he is so far off on and he wont let it drop) has gotten beyond old and he is doing such a diservice to members with his BS I question how he is good for this forum. I am fed up with his attacks.
 
#113 ·
And using a catchcan that allows as much oil to pullthrough as they catch is not the answer either:



Below shows how this oil gunking/coking also causes the rings to stick in the ringlands multiplying the oil consumption issue:


And for the super charged crowd even WITH port injection and no good catchcan this is 16K miles on a brand new car....look at the intercooler and how obstructed and coated it is reducing its ability to cool the air charge:


A new CTS-V/ZR1/ZL1 blower after 15 k miles WITH the RX catchcan installed at app 1000 miles:
 
#115 · (Edited)
hey first time post and new member . after trying upper engine decarb and induction, i still had low compression on two cylinders on b(1) . found air box not secured at the bottom pins werent in there slots and literally a dead mouse and nest in air filter housing . lots of debris including hard nut shells. i suspected he might of injested some foreign matter that was not to friendly to the rings on these two front cyls.. so i just finished a rebuild on this engine. (rings, seals, chains, actuator (one) and a recondition on heads ( about 70 % of valves leaking . cust is a guy "too light on the happy pedal lots of carbon build up ) I installed starter on engine stand after priming oil system to double check myself before install. engine is cranking slower than normal: had a battery attached with charger on 40 amps , compression was pretty even 115 to 120 across the board. im thinking rotation speed is culprit and also scoped waveform on starter all cylinders look real close any feedback would be appreciated. oh ps i dont have the locking tool for the flexplate did you purchase this for your project or do u know how to install balancer w/o it thank you for your attention really like this forum and u have my apologies if the info was machine gunned. I am still at work.
 
#117 ·
everyone is having trouble with the pics... the original poster either removed their pictures from photobucket or renamed them or moved them or photobucket has disabled them

i've said it before and i'll say it again ... use imageshack ... i never have these problems and i post pictures all the time
imageshack doesn't even require an account and their upload tool is super easy to use... just right click the image and 'upload to imageshack'
 
#120 ·
Doug,
you seem to know all there is to know about cadillac cts... so... my 07 CTS with the 3.6 engine has a problem. My husband accelerated hard the other day running the rpms into the 6000 range and then we got the blinking check engine light and the car started running rough at idle and during driving. Hasn't gone away even though he changed the spark plugs. What else could it be?
 
#124 ·
I have an 04 CTS 3.6 and Ive been having some issues with it and took to local mechanic and they are telling me that I have timing issues. They say that the cam is suppose to read at 0 but is reading at 32? I am a woman and I am far from a mechanic and wondering if maybe it could be something simple or am I looking at replacing everything like cam, chain and lifters ?? It runs fine until youve drove a little and then wants to die on me at stop lights and slowing down, also lost power on me one day and couldnt go over 40mph. I have 156000 on it and really dont want to put a lot of money into it. Any help is appreciated.

----------

I have an 04 CTC 3.6 and I have had some issues with it. It runs fine until its driven for a bit and then wants to die on me at stop lights and slowing down. Only had a couple codes one the catylist below thresh hold bank 1 and 2 the other was a throttle poss. sensor so I replaced the whole throttle body and still did not work. Sunday it lost power and would not go over 40 mph. Took to local mechanic and he is telling me that I have timing issues. Is it possible that it could be something else???? I am a woman and know nothing about this. My car has 156000 miles and I am grasping for straws. Any advise is greatly appreciated
 
#125 ·
I have an 04 CTS 3.6 and Ive been having some issues with it and took to local mechanic and they are telling me that I have timing issues. They say that the cam is suppose to read at 0 but is reading at 32? I am a woman and I am far from a mechanic and wondering if maybe it could be something simple or am I looking at replacing everything like cam, chain and lifters ?? It runs fine until youve drove a little and then wants to die on me at stop lights and slowing down, also lost power on me one day and couldnt go over 40mph. I have 156000 on it and really dont want to put a lot of money into it. Any help is appreciated.


Make sure the oil is always FULL.

Do you have any engine codes?
Do you have engine rattle at start up?
Do you have engine rattle under heavy acceleration?
 
#126 ·
I need some help guys. I have set my left bank, got my crank chain on and All data tell me to remove the plate from the left bank and rotate the engine X number of degrees to set the right bank and put another plate that i currently have on the right side on the left and left on the right. What am i missing here? My marks on my right camshaft are aligned with the seven lings and i have the plate on there. why can't i remove the left cam plate and rotate the engine over that certain number degrees and hook up the chain. What do i need to do in order to set the right bank?
 
#127 ·
Hey man, I love this thread so far. I had already done much of everything up to the point of the alternator and its bracket. It's giving me fits. I can't seem to find the final bolt holding the bracket in place. Or maybe I have, but seems impossible for me to get to. Is it behind the coolant tube when looking at it from the wheel well? This has been the most difficult part for me thus far, and videos I've seen show the alternator and bracket coming out all together.

I don't know if you're still active on here, but I would love some advice.
 
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