05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons) - Page 3
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Cadillac CTS First Generation Forum - 2003 - 2007 Discussion, 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons) in Cadillac CTS Coupe, Sport Sedan and Sport Wagon Forums; I'm not sure what to tell you about the images. I've viewed the thread logged in and not, both times ...
  1. #31
    Doug In NC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    I'm not sure what to tell you about the images. I've viewed the thread logged in and not, both times I'm able to see them and no one else has mentioned any problems.

    A follow up on the patient. Tonight I replaced the lower radiator hose, antifreeze and changed the oil for the final time. If you remember, the lower hose had the broken spring clamp and as it turns out the remains of it were able to cut a small hole in the hose. Also, it was leaking antifreeze from that hole and was a few drops short of a steady stream. The coolant reservoir was still over-filled (I was anticipating an air pocket to purge out) and the owner had only driven the car about 200 miles since the repairs.

    Previously, we were putting in 10w30 full synthetic due to the timing chain noise. The oil change tonight we dropped the viscosity back to 5w30. I've been to a few classes in the last couple of months and they are really pushing hard for folks to pay attention not only to oil viscosity but also the "GL" numbering on the back of oil container. The instructors are also saying to make sure that you are using oil that is x,y,z certified and not the kind that "meets or exceeds" x,y,z standards. Only the oil that is certified is considered acceptable by the manufacturer of the car because "meets or exceeds" means the oil company used their own testing methods and CLAIM it is the same. The oil that is certified has basically been sent OUT to be examined and certified. May be a bit too much detail and yeah, I feel it's a bit of a sham but if you're buying a new car it's better to be safe than have your warranty voided.

    The new hose was about $25.00 from NAPA but I don't have the paper work with me to give a part number. I may get around to posting more info later.
    Doug

  2. #32
    EasternPA is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Wow Doug, what an amazing job! How much for labor if we bring the parts and helping hands? And where do we start scheduling weekends and send a down payment for a reservation!?!? Just create a shared Google Calendar and put the cost you would charge for each weekend from May to October. You would clean up!

    Thank you! Great job!

  3. #33
    Doug In NC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    My labor rate at home is $50 an hour and it's about a 14 hour job per Alldata so that's about $700.00 labor but I could probably work a deal if someone's serious about it.

    As far as the helping goes... I can't seem to paint a big enough square around my work area to keep people out of the way. My current favorite saying is "Automotive repair is not a spectator sport." and most of the time there's no room for a second body under the hood. That being said... I don't mind company, it just kind of slows down the process sometimes.

    On an update note, the car went to Myrtle Beach, SC and back to the Raleigh, NC area last weekend after replacing the lower radiator hose and changing the oil for the final time. With a little bit of spirited driving here and there and mostly highway speeds (where the oil consumption showed up the most prior to repair) the oil was just a hair below the FULL dot which is exactly where it left at.

    While under the car I checked for oil and coolant leaks and found none so while I'm a bit hesitant to say it but it looks like this one is fixed both on the coolant loss (lower hose), oil consumption (cause unknown) and the timing chain rattle (excessive mileage on oil change interval).

    On the trip meter, the 400 mile trek lowered the oil life to 96%. Is my math right here in that 100 miles = 1% and 10,000 = 100%? Supposedly the monitor takes other things in to account than just mileage but seems to me that there's the timing chain failure cause right there.

  4. #34
    EasternPA is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Thank you for putting a stake in the ground! I may have to find a reason to work at the RTP office for a few days this summer and drive down on a Thursday night...

  5. #35
    Doug In NC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    My friend in Bethlehem wants me to work on her mpv. Maybe ya'll can find one or two more cars for me to work on and split the cost of a car carrier.

  6. #36
    LONESTARSTUNNERS's Avatar
    LONESTARSTUNNERS is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Fantastic write up man!!! You truely will single handedly help many members on here if they choose to tackle this project. I am a tech and I still wouldnt want to do this even if I was getting paid! Again, great job and keep it up!

  7. #37
    ss4cts is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Doug,
    Amazing post!
    How would you grade overall noise from engine?
    Can you compare to Japanese V6 engines?
    Thanks!

  8. #38
    Doug In NC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    I would rate it about average when it's repaired. I mean it's not a sewing machine Honda but it's not a noisy lifter 4g63 (mitsubishi 4cyl) either. I'm still wishing I had that last tensioner for the primary timing chain in there because the mechanic in me can block out the radio, exhaust note and cars around me and still pick up on a very very faint chain noise. But I'm tuned in to it too so 99% of the rest of the world would never even hear it.

  9. #39
    rgl
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Truly an excellent thread, Doug. You have an amazing skill in that you can do the work, understand how it works and document your work. Having oil consumption issues with our '07 3.6 with 73k, which is rapidly getting worse as it approaches 1 quart per 1200 miles, I wonder if you could comment on why you think it was the failing chains that cause oil consumption?? I have been expecting problems at the Rings. I don't think I have the chain clatter

    Now that there is a few months on the engine, can you report on the oil consumption since your work on the engine?

  10. #40
    Doug In NC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by rgl View Post
    Truly an excellent thread, Doug. You have an amazing skill in that you can do the work, understand how it works and document your work. Having oil consumption issues with our '07 3.6 with 73k, which is rapidly getting worse as it approaches 1 quart per 1200 miles, I wonder if you could comment on why you think it was the failing chains that cause oil consumption?? I have been expecting problems at the Rings. I don't think I have the chain clatter

    Now that there is a few months on the engine, can you report on the oil consumption since your work on the engine?
    Well, to be honest I can't really explain it. There were no fault codes nor performance issues. I did no fuel trim monitoring prior to nor after repairs and aside from the noise and the oil consumption I had no reason to dive in to the job for my friend.

    Additionally, I changed out the PCV orfice at the same time as the timing chain repair so I can't differentiate between which part of the repair work really caused the reduction in oil consumption.

    I have put in PCV valves/orfices on cars where oil consumption was an issue and that ALONE took care of the problem. In those situations, if the valve was gummed up then it could be stuck open causing full intake vacuum to be applied to the crank case all the time. If it's stuck closed then there wouldn't be sufficient breathing in the engine and oil caking or external leaking may occur.

    It's my opinion that the noise was caused by a lack of lubrication as described in previous posts in this thread and others regarding oil change intervals. This lack of lubrication caused excessive wear on the primary timing chain guides (mostly, some on secondary) and thus gave the noise. However, I can't seem to justify in theory how intake or exhaust timing can contribute to oil consumption and still not throw a check engine light on a newer car like the CTS.

    I'll try to get up with the owner over the next couple of days and follow up with mileage and oil level but like most other folks that have done the repairs... it seems to be fixed.

    Cheers,
    Doug

  11. #41
    Doug In NC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    The oil comsumption is still there, each time he brings it back in to me for an oil change the oil is at least a quart low, most of the time lower than that. The condition seems to be worse when the car is driven on the highway for several hours. I can't be more specific than that because I don't believe the owner is properly checking his oil nor keeping track of it to say "For every 500 miles of open road driving I consume "x" amount of oil compared to 500 miles of in-town driving it consumes "y" amount.

    He did have it towed back to my place with a coil that melted down. The left bank coils and injectors all share one fuse while the right bank coils and injectors share a different fuse. So when the injector melted down it shorted to ground and pop the fuse. Oddly enough it would still run on just the right bank but obviously, very poorly. Also, in this visit there again was nothing on the dipstick. I double checked all my grounds, checked for wiring melted/rubbed/damaged and found nothing. It's been a couple of weeks since I repaired it but have not had a re-occurence of this failure. The coil was melted basically in the housing between the spark plug and the electrical connector. The connector and the spark plug were both re-useable with no signs of damage nor indication that they were the cause. I'll see if I can find pictures and update this weekend or something.

  12. #42
    74chvy glasshouse is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    sweet

  13. #43
    ghostrider2005 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Finished changing chain on mine,had 71000 miles on the engine. Pretty straight forward job, toughest part was setting chains (cam locking tools help big time), had about 12 hours into the total job. Be sure to change fuel injection o rings while you are in there. I actually didn't have much wear on the gears or chains, but had leaking timing cover to fix anyway. Car runs great, increased gas mileage and does not consume oil. I will upload pictures in a few days
    On a side note if you had a mysterious coolant leak, check the water pump gasket. Make sure you use AC Delco gasket, instead of aftermarket.

  14. #44
    ktr-sb is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider2005 View Post
    Be sure to change fuel injection o rings while you are in there.
    If you pull the manifold off and then disconnect the fuel rail you don't have to change the o-rings:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ml#post2788625

    About the oil leak - did you find any sludge in the engine?

  15. #45
    mmechura is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 05 CTS 3.6L Timing Chain Job, Tons-o-pics (I mean tons)

    Doug in NC AWESOME POST, Thank you for taking the time and effort to put that together, you probably added at least 2-3 hours to the length of the job with all the pics. I would like to add a couple of notes though.

    1. You do not need cam holders if the proper timing procedure is followed. As per Dougs post line up the links with the gear marks - To make sure the cams are in the right position the flat spots on the rear of the cams should line up, i.e. you should be able to put a straight edge across them.

    2. Be VERY careful with the timing link that lines up with the hole in the left bank idler gear, THIS IS A CRITICAL STEP THAT WILL MESS UP THE REST OF THE TIMING JOB IF THE LINK IS NOT LOCATED PROPERLY. It is very difficult to see the link through the hole, I used a small pick through the hole and was able to time it right that way.

    3. Install the Primary chain per Doug's instructions. Make sure the right bank cam flat spots line up like in note 1. However when finished installing the primary chain turn the crankshaft approximately 30 degrees clockwise. The Right bank chain should slip on with little difficulty.


    This is how it is described in the book and by the mechanic that I spoke with when I completed my replacement after my chain broke. BTW he was completing 3 timing chains per day!!

    I hope this helps

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