CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver
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Cadillac or competing brand model ? Why ? Discussion, CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver in Item Specific Cadillac Discussion; I posted this on another forum and I'd like to hear the thoughts of the caddy faithful: A change in ...
  1. #1
    CaddyGeek is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    I posted this on another forum and I'd like to hear the thoughts of the caddy faithful:
    A change in perception is what the Cadillac brand wants and needs... however, based on the car presented to Car and Driver for their March 2004 comparison test of the CTS-V against the M3 and M5... GM drops the ball once again. How the heck does someone let this happen? The car had a flat tire, a supposed faulty oil temp sensor (which some how manged to burn through a full quart of mobile 1 synthetic after only 2 laps on the track, severe axle hop, and a shifter described as too stiff. Gentlemen, I want this car and I will buy this car, but GM should be ashamed of themselves. Public perception is what builds a brand. The miserable dealership experience and articles like this one will do nothing to build this brand. Heads should roll at Cadillac because of this. What were the Cadillac guys doing instead of going over this car with a fine tooth comb? What the hell could have possibly been more important than either fixing or changing the oil sensor? Inspite of having puny looking 245 width tires, how does this car have a rear suspension set-up that the magazine predicts will destroy differentials? Didn't anyone at Cadillac think it was important enough to make sure the car didn't have GLARING FLAWS?!?!? The testers liked the car inspite of it's problems, but left the reader with the following, as I will you: The objective test results suggest that Cadillac didn't hit it's development targets quite as squarely as hoped.
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  3. #2
    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    First, its pre production car, second, Goodyear made the tires and i'm sure the sensors worked (runflats). Love how a magazine guy can determine that it will eat up rear ends and the guys who are a million times smarter than them can't. C'mon...a stiff shifter? Its a ZO6 transmission, the shifter should be as loose as it. Sounds to me like its damage control for the M3 and M5. Geez, how much did you hear from Mags when the M3 motors were going bad? How they did something like, detune the engines and lower the redline? You didn't hear anything until M3 owners made a big stink of it on the internet. GM will not let V's go out the door with an oil sensor problem. I'm sure they don't want to replace LS6's that are under warranty for 4 years 50k standard

    Forgot, what exactly are the "glaring flaws? Do you think all V's are going to come with a bad oil sensor, a flat tire, a stiff shifter and I'll take the magazines word that the rear will fail.
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    CaddyGeek is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    I'm not going to discuss each point, because my main point here has been lost. This f***in car should never have been given to this magazine with out being gone over not once, not twice, but 10 times. Bob Lutz promised us that things like this would not happen anymore. These new cars are supposed to be statements. Cadillac's return to: The Standard of the World. People should lose their jobs over things like this. Cadillac has an image problem. Lack luster dealerships and articles like this do not help. GM knows that Cadillac needs sales. Increased sales mean more money for R&D which yields more exciting models for us drive. I want this car. I have wanted this car since last Aprils New York Autoshow and it pisses me off to see articles like this because this car is better than this. Anyone who has driven one can attest to that. Cadillac needs to interest young car crazy guys like me, who read 4 car magazines a month, to go out and drive this car. If I was a guy with no GM loyalties, who was considering an M series, this article would totally turn me off. The problems with this car could have been fixed before the magazine got it's hands on it. This was a production car, not pre-production. Ken Morris, a Cadillac engineer, explained that all the first cars off the line had the oil sensor problem. WELL THEN CHANGE IT, KEN!! Someone needed to beat on this car for a few hours in the days before handing it over. Change the friggin tire, adjust the shift linkage (as GNSCOTT can attest, the 6 speeds in our C5's do not flow like a hot knife through butter), change the oil sensor to something that won't have the car running at over 300F degrees, and I'll let the axle tramp slide... although I can't see how 400HP and skinny tires don't equal melted tires instead of a bad Mustang burnout. GM needs to be better because Cadillac has been mediocre for a long time. Instead of making excuses for people who didn't care enough to do their jobs properly we, as Caddy loyalists, need to complain in these posts in hopes that someone is paying attention... so that the next time a car magazine gets one of these cars for a test it's as good as it can be, not 4/5's. Would any of us... Would anyone who wants to see this brand succeed have been so careless with the car we presented if it was under our control? NO... and that is my point. Cadillac had an opportunity to make a statement and let a great car kick some ass, but instead they are left to follow instead of lead.
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    JEM
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    IRSes are more susceptible to wheel hop than most (non-leaf-spring) stick-axle setups. Most do it if the conditions are right - the M5 does, the 'Vette does, the Mustang Cobra does.

    Not having a C/D subscription I haven't read the story, but I can't imagine why the GM press minders wouldn't have had the tire changed in five minutes if they'd been notified. The temp sensor is a bigger issue - is this just a gauge sender or is this a thermostat in the oil cooler?

    If we're talking preproduction hardware, it may just be that C/D got their hands on the car after it'd been beaten to death by everyone else.
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    CaddyGeek is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    From what I can find it appears that there is no oil cooler designed into the LS6 ... at least not when it's in the corvette Z06. GM abandoned oil coolers in corvettes in 92 with the advent of synthetic oil. The 2005 C6 Z51 corvette will have one, but the standard C6 will not. Regarding the sensor the article states that there is a "software calibration challenge" that must keep the t-stat from tripping the fan. The oil-temp monitor is new in this car (different than the vette) and the engineers, apparently, haven't worked everything out as of yet.
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    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    Where is this article? The only one I can find on their web site praises the hell out of the car.
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  8. #7
    hapyctser is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    CaddyGeek,you ABSOLUTELY nailed it! NO EXCUSES, Cadillac! You got to the goal line and fumbled the ball. No amount of sympathetic rationale of well meaning Caddy Forum regulars can make this smell any better. The sandbox Cadillac has chosen to play in is that of enthusiasts who seek the holy grail of world class performance sedans. "Standard of The World"? Not yet.
    ANYONE listening at Cadillac? Mark, please do not blow this off. You have to know going in that C & D is not predisposed to like anything from Detroit from the get-go. They, unfortunately have a lot to do with forming public opinion
    of performance cars. The big moment comes center stage, front and center with kleig lights blazing and there you stand in full tux with your fly open. I happen to love my CTS 1SC but in the larger picture of Cadillac's reputation it really doesn't matter. Better learn how to play with the big dogs. QUICK!
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    darrelld is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT
    First, its pre production car, second, Goodyear made the tires and i'm sure the sensors worked (runflats). Love how a magazine guy can determine that it will eat up rear ends and the guys who are a million times smarter than them can't. C'mon...a stiff shifter? Its a ZO6 transmission, the shifter should be as loose as it. Sounds to me like its damage control for the M3 and M5. Geez, how much did you hear from Mags when the M3 motors were going bad? How they did something like, detune the engines and lower the redline? You didn't hear anything until M3 owners made a big stink of it on the internet. GM will not let V's go out the door with an oil sensor problem. I'm sure they don't want to replace LS6's that are under warranty for 4 years 50k standard

    Forgot, what exactly are the "glaring flaws? Do you think all V's are going to come with a bad oil sensor, a flat tire, a stiff shifter and I'll take the magazines word that the rear will fail.
    Interesting to note the predisposition of the naysayers to form alliances without having read the article for themselves.

    <I hear the beating of the Holy BMW drum in the background calling the faithful to join the forming frenzy>

    The M3 engine self destruct problem was never mentioned in any of the rags that currently beat up anything Detroit. Still the M3 problem is little known among the BMW apologists I see frequenting this forum. When I mentioned the M3 problem in more than one thread an apologist immediately pointed out how unfair this was.
    http://yoy.com/auto/m3_failintro.shtml

    This same group repeatedly points out Detroit mistakes from the past decade over and over again. Draw your own conclusions but until I actually see the C&D article its difficult to form an objective opinion.
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    What, a BMW NEVER broke down before!? Don't give me that crap! Many cars that are tested for magazine articles are "rung-out" and abused before they go to another magazine to abused even more. I wonder if this is one of those cars? I can give you details and model years of BMW's that were recalled in 1991 for potential exploding gas tanks! I'm not making excuses, every car that is in it's first year can have unforeseen bugs in it, and anyone who is a car enthuisiast knows this. I wonder how long before the new Acura TL is recalled for defects. Have you seen the list of recalls for the Ford Focus, despite the fact that this car was out in Europe 2 years before the NA introduction, and was supposed to be bug free!
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    jokergrin is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    reading that article it's hard not to think it's propoganda to save face for the M3 and M5. a car from detroit finally stepped up to the plate and can hang (and most likely) beat it's competitors so I'm not surprised that people are salty. An M3 roasting Cadillac? lord forbid...
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    Also, if one of the Beamers broke down or somehow failed during the test, it would probably go unnoticed because the spotlight is on the V right now. I want to know where the CTS owners are? If you don't think these cars are reliable, just explore this section of the Forum and see if they aren't! Then go to a BMW Forum to see if they are so "superior" for reliability. This is one "regular" who is tired of short timers coming here just to bash our favorite rides! Go buy a Beamer, we're not stopping you. And when you do race a V, make sure your hairpiece is snapped in good! Sounds like fear talking so far.

    C L U T C H !
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    kman320 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    Car and Driver still gave the CTS-V good overall remarks. Either way I still want one no matter what they say. My good friend has a 02 M3 and he even admits the CTS-V is as good of a car if not better than his M3. BTW ,didnt the CTS come in second in overall quality next to the Lexus ES300?
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    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    So where were the problems when they tested it the first time?? All of a sudden they find what you call "glaring flaws". C'mon, complaining about a flat tire has to be the stupidest thing put in print by the rag. THEY FREAKIN COMPLAINED ABOUT A DAMN FLAT TIRE! They were just looking for stuff to bitch about, going so far as to predict that the rears will fail?????


    BOTTOM LINE IS IT GETS AROUND THE TRACK QUICKER THAN AN M3 OR M5, and i'll bet that it gets around quicker with the rear intact, with the oil sensor working, and well if you get a flat tire going around, at least you have run flats on there. Nothing but petty BS from a rag.
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    hapyctser is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    For whatever it's worth, I read the article.... thoroughly! I stand by my comments. I am a HUGE GM and, particularly a Cadillac supporter but I am getting TIRED of auto writers having to make excuses for GM on why the test results may have been skewed. It is not clear that the M5 would have trounced the "V" if they hadn't been reluctant to push it due to the gage readouts. It is just FRUSTATING that there is always SOMETHING, clearly the fault of GM, that diminishes the luster of a test car. It is the attention to detail that makes the difference between companies who "get it" and those who dont.
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    CaddyGeek is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CTS-V comparison March 2004 Car n Driver

    Who the hell said that anyone writting in this thread wanted an M series instead of a CTS-V? Regular or "short-timer," it should be apparent that the guys, at cadillac, who prep'd this car hurt it's performance in this test and should be taken to task for it... Bashing me for being furious because some idiot didn't do his job is stupid. Hundreds of thousands of people are now reading about what this car didn't do well, instead of by how much it kicked ass. Problems with the BMWs... so what? Who cares? BMW owns the friggin market for performance sedans (with Audi and AMG right on their ass)... they are are the standard, the target, the cars that people spend $50,000 on instead of Cadillacs. If our boys in Detroit want to perpetuate this brand then they need the car magazines. Cadillac needs to thump the euro-sedans in these tests. They need High School kids to hang pictures of this car on their walls... to someday aspire to drop the clutch and roast the tires in a CTS-V. This article hurt the brand. The car could have been trouble free and we'd all be jumping up and down showing our friends how the Caddy sucked the doors off the M cars and ate their lunch. None of that happened. Instead we are all doing damage control for a great car. Bob Lutz, you really let me down... make the STS-V 500hp instead of 400hp, over shoot the mark, prepare for the V-10 M5 and leave it sucking on force fed Detroit exhaust. Make Cadillac the ENVY of the world.
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