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Cadillac or competing brand model ? Why ? Discussion, Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII? in Item Specific Cadillac Discussion; Just for the sake of argument, several times it has been said the Ford would benefit from a manual transmission. ...
  1. #46
    Randy_W is offline Banned
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Just for the sake of argument, several times it has been said the Ford would benefit from a manual transmission. Guess what people, so would the Northstar!

  2. #47
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy_W
    Just for the sake of argument, several times it has been said the Ford would benefit from a manual transmission. Guess what people, so would the Northstar!
    Ya know, I wouldn't bet that it would benefit much if any at all Randy. The engine's calibrated flowrate is set to work quite well with an automatic. I really don't think the road to performance increases in the Northstar cars lyes in the transmission choice.
    On the other hand, the Ford is definately hampered by the automatic (and the tall gears). A high-stall converter makes a huge difference in those cars, as does some shorter gears. But with a nice 6-speed manual, the flowrate of the engine AND the tall gears are actually pretty good.

  3. #48
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    Dave,
    Your post is confusing. You original issue was top-end power, no 1/4 mile runs. I admit that in stock form the Caddy will pull the MKVIII in the 1/4 due to it's lack of off the line power. In your statement about your car shifting a few hundred rpm past peak power, and how it nets you a better 1/4 mile run is misleading. I hope you realize that by hanging the shift slightly beyond peak power, the loss of power is more than offset by getting further into the meat of the following gears's powerband. Obviously, that has nothing to do with our original issue since the car will already be in it's top gear. What's at issue here is what each car will do in it's top gear at well past the 100mph mark. At the very least, I'd maybe give you that we might be talking having to go through the last shift. You also seem to be forgetting that the MKVIII driver can do exactly what you do and hold his shift manually too in which case your "revving past peak power" theory will work equally well for either car.
    To be honest, I think it's quite obvious that you're going to keep twisting the scenario around in an effort to imply an advantage for your Caddy so I think it's time to just let this one go. Have fun racing your freind. Do yourself a favor though, race him from a dead stop if you want to retain your ego.
    Yes I admit my post is kinda confusing. I've just gotten the feeling driving these cars that a northstar pulls harder at the top end, trying to explain reasons why it might be that way...

    Sure the driver in the Mark can shift higher than peak. It'll go to 6k and shift itself.

    I've already beaten the Mark every time we've raced except once, so my ego can take it if I lose from a roll. I'll be doing it to see what happens, not nessicarily to get a win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackout
    If a Mark VIII is able to get the jump on you from the line then thats sad because the Mark VIII has very little power down low and gets off the line like a slug.
    BOTH of them suck off the line, neither of them have great power down low, both get off the line like a slug. The Northstar is no better than the Mark down low, the 3.71s help the Northstar, RWD helps the Mark. If the Mark's 4.6 is such a top end beast as you're saying, isn't it sad that I catch and pass him later on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    A high-stall converter makes a huge difference in those cars, as does some shorter gears.
    As they would in any automatic...

  4. #49
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    Yes I admit my post is kinda confusing. I've just gotten the feeling driving these cars that a northstar pulls harder at the top end, trying to explain reasons why it might be that way...
    Sure the driver in the Mark can shift higher than peak. It'll go to 6k and shift itself.
    Why would the car shift itself once it hits 6k? If your manually rowing the gears on the Northstar I guess that means that that can only happen on a N* equipped car? I've revved my Mark past redline a few times at the dragstrip. The only reason why your getting better ET's out of it is because if you left it in Drive and once you hit redline it shifts gears. Well its not instant that the car goes from one gear to another there is a slight delay. Back when I had my Spec V I would be so close to the end of the 1/4 but I would have to throw it in 4th because if not I would have bounced off the rev limiter and that takes the car out of its power band and slows it down and it killed my ET's. If it wasn't for the rev limiter I could have hit 14.9 or 15.0 in stock trim. Your not grasping the point. Just because you can rev it that extra 500 rpm doesn't mean your going faster.

    I've already beaten the Mark every time we've raced except once, so my ego can take it if I lose from a roll. I'll be doing it to see what happens, not nessicarily to get a win.
    When you raced your buddies Mark did you tell him to turn off the O/D, turn off the traction control, and to manually row the gears? I remember you saying something like you didn't want to tell him that or something along those lines. Because if your friend is just putting it in drive then he's going to run slower times. The reason why you are beating the Mark's in the top end is because they're probably ahead of you and they hit the rev limiter and you go on by and you think your car has the better top end. If the Mark was speed limited all you would see is tail lights the whole time

    If the Mark's 4.6 is such a top end beast as you're saying, isn't it sad that I catch and pass him later on?
    There are so many equations that could play into that. I've raced a handful of Northstar's and I've beaten them all. The closest one was a ETC but by the time my speed limiter kicked in I had about a car length on him. But 2 STS's, 1 DTS's, 1 SLS's, and 1 plain Eldorado later I have yet to lose to one.
    As they would in any automatic...
    Not in the case of the Mark.

  5. #50
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackout
    Why would the car shift itself once it hits 6k? If your manually rowing the gears on the Northstar I guess that means that that can only happen on a N* equipped car? I've revved my Mark past redline a few times at the dragstrip. The only reason why your getting better ET's out of it is because if you left it in Drive and once you hit redline it shifts gears. Well its not instant that the car goes from one gear to another there is a slight delay. Back when I had my Spec V I would be so close to the end of the 1/4 but I would have to throw it in 4th because if not I would have bounced off the rev limiter and that takes the car out of its power band and slows it down and it killed my ET's. If it wasn't for the rev limiter I could have hit 14.9 or 15.0 in stock trim. Your not grasping the point. Just because you can rev it that extra 500 rpm doesn't mean your going faster.
    What year Mark VIII did you have again? As far as I remember my friend's 96 will shift itself at 6k, although I don't remember if it will do this on the 2-3 shift. BTW I'm not actually manually shifting the gears... just holding it in 1 and letting the computer shift it at 6500 (which is redline.) When it's in drive, it shifts at 6100 or so - 400 below redline.

    Your dad might be right however, that I don't go faster because of the extra 500rpm, instead that I go faster because after the shift I'm 500rpm higher into the powerband...


    When you raced your buddies Mark did you tell him to turn off the O/D, turn off the traction control, and to manually row the gears? I remember you saying something like you didn't want to tell him that or something along those lines. Because if your friend is just putting it in drive then he's going to run slower times.
    The two times I was at the dragstrip at the same time he was with his car, he and I tested out the idea and going through the gears manually (he always has traction assist off, always races with OD off.. In his Mark, there is no "1" position on the shifter; manually controlling the 1-2 shift isn't really possible, regardless of where the shifter is it shifts at 6k (its redline) every time.

    The reason why you are beating the Mark's in the top end is because they're probably ahead of you and they hit the rev limiter and you go on by and you think your car has the better top end.
    Exactly how is the Mark hitting the rev limiter at 6k where it shifts?

    If the Mark was speed limited all you would see is tail lights the whole time
    What in the blue hell does a speed limiter have to do with me racing a Mark at speeds under the limiter? Like I said I reel the Mark in by the 660' mark (never get far enough behind to actually see taillights unless my RT is horrible,) and we all know these cars aren't anywhere near a speed limiter at that point.

    There are so many equations that could play into that. I've raced a handful of Northstar's and I've beaten them all. The closest one was a ETC but by the time my speed limiter kicked in I had about a car length on him. But 2 STS's, 1 DTS's, 1 SLS's, and 1 plain Eldorado later I have yet to lose to one.
    Ok, that's good. So when you raced these northstar cars, who won off the line? Who pulled on whom at higher speeds?

    Not in the case of the Mark.
    What do you mean not in the case of the Mark? You're saying a stall and gears WON'T help a Mark? I'm saying they'll help any automatic if that was unclear.

  6. #51
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    What year Mark VIII did you have again?
    I had a 1995 base model.

    As far as I remember my friend's 96 will shift itself at 6k, although I don't remember if it will do this on the 2-3 shift. BTW I'm not actually manually shifting the gears... just holding it in 1 and letting the computer shift it at 6500 (which is redline.) When it's in drive, it shifts at 6100 or so - 400 below redline.
    I've only brought the car past redline a handful of times. All it does is hit the rev limiter and stop.

    Your dad might be right however, that I don't go faster because of the extra 500rpm, instead that I go faster because after the shift I'm 500rpm higher into the powerband...
    Its not that it might be the case. It is the case.

    The two times I was at the dragstrip at the same time he was with his car, he and I tested out the idea and going through the gears manually (he always has traction assist off, always races with OD off.. In his Mark, there is no "1" position on the shifter; manually controlling the 1-2 shift isn't really possible, regardless of where the shifter is it shifts at 6k (its redline) every time.
    Ummm.....if he doesn't have a 1 position then something is up with the car. The Mark's have a 1, 2 gear option and then for third you just throw it in drive. In the Mark's case manually rowing the gears nets you much better times. My best time in drive was a 15.1. While rowing the gears I was breathing on a 14.8.

    Exactly how is the Mark hitting the rev limiter at 6k where it shifts?
    My bad I meant to say the speed limiter not the rev limiter.

    What in the blue hell does a speed limiter have to do with me racing a Mark at speeds under the limiter? Like I said I reel the Mark in by the 660' mark (never get far enough behind to actually see taillights unless my RT is horrible,) and we all know these cars aren't anywhere near a speed limiter at that point.
    Once again you keep going back to the 1/4 races. Were talking about racing from a roll and who has the better power at top end. Not the top end of the 1/4. When I ran my 14.921 my trap speed was 96.75 mph. Now if you know how to propperly read a 1/4 slip with a ET of that but with a trap speed that high it shows you that the car is a dog off the line but is pulling hard once it gets up and going. When Katshot ran his 14.5 I believe his trap speed was only like 97-98 mph.


    Ok, that's good. So when you raced these northstar cars, who won off the line? Who pulled on whom at higher speeds?
    I only raced one N* car froma dead stop and that was a DTS and I beat him pretty good. The other's I raced from a roll and all they saw was tailights until my speed limiter kicked in


    What do you mean not in the case of the Mark? You're saying a stall and gears WON'T help a Mark? I'm saying they'll help any automatic if that was unclear.
    I miss read what you meant. For some reason I thought you meant that having an automatic on the Mark would mean that it was setup for an automatic and a stick wouldn't net you much of a difference. Sorry for the confusion.

  7. #52
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackout
    Ummm.....if he doesn't have a 1 position then something is up with the car. The Mark's have a 1, 2 gear option and then for third you just throw it in drive. In the Mark's case manually rowing the gears nets you much better times. My best time in drive was a 15.1. While rowing the gears I was breathing on a 14.8.
    I was wrong it does have a 1 and a 2, I knew it had 3 positions but the light's burned out and I've never noticed it in the day. My mistake. From what I remember it still shifts at 6k regardless of what you do with the shifter. (Just about every electronically controlled automatic I've driven shifts itself before the rev limiter.) His is a 96 btw.

    Once again you keep going back to the 1/4 races. Were talking about racing from a roll and who has the better power at top end. Not the top end of the 1/4. When I ran my 14.921 my trap speed was 96.75 mph. Now if you know how to propperly read a 1/4 slip with a ET of that but with a trap speed that high it shows you that the car is a dog off the line but is pulling hard once it gets up and going. When Katshot ran his 14.5 I believe his trap speed was only like 97-98 mph.
    Well I'm going back to 1/4 mile racing because you get hard data from a 1/4 mile run. I honestly don't remember what he was trapping, I don't think it was higher than mine. I'll have to remember to ask next time I talk to him, alont with 60' times. My 60's were within .5 of 2.4, now that's a dog off the line, I was trapping at 90. (Keep in mind I'm at altitude.)


    I miss read what you meant. For some reason I thought you meant that having an automatic on the Mark would mean that it was setup for an automatic and a stick wouldn't net you much of a difference. Sorry for the confusion.
    Sorry if I worded it wrong but at least we agree there.

  8. #53
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Ya know, I wouldn't bet that it would benefit much if any at all Randy. The engine's calibrated flowrate is set to work quite well with an automatic. I really don't think the road to performance increases in the Northstar cars lyes in the transmission choice.
    Well one 'assume' that the pcm would be calibrated to take advantage of the manual if that were the transmission used. I have yet to meet a small high revving engine that would not benefit from a manual transmission, if properly driven.

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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Lets toss in a BMW 540i, first-generation Infiniti Q45, and Audi A8 4.2 into the discussion just for fun.

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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy_W
    Well one 'assume' that the pcm would be calibrated to take advantage of the manual if that were the transmission used. I have yet to meet a small high revving engine that would not benefit from a manual transmission, if properly driven.
    It's not actually the PCM that's the issue here. Engines with low, flat powerbands do better with automatics, and engines with narrow, peaky powerbands do better with manuals. Two cars that come to mind that illustrate this point quite well are the LT1-powered Fleetwood and the Mercury Marauder. IMO, the Fleetwood would not benefit much (if at all) from a manual because the powerband is low and flat. On the other hand, the Marauder would be helped out greatly because it's engine has a rather weak low rpm range. I think this theory also proven by the '05 GTO where the low, flat powerband of the LS2 engine allows the car to take full advantage of an automatic, and in that application, the automatic car is quicker than the manual version in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    It's not actually the PCM that's the issue here. Engines with low, flat powerbands do better with automatics, and engines with narrow, peaky powerbands do better with manuals. Two cars that come to mind that illustrate this point quite well are the LT1-powered Fleetwood and the Mercury Marauder. IMO, the Fleetwood would not benefit much (if at all) from a manual because the powerband is low and flat. On the other hand, the Marauder would be helped out greatly because it's engine has a rather weak low rpm range. I think this theory also proven by the '05 GTO where the low, flat powerband of the LS2 engine allows the car to take full advantage of an automatic, and in that application, the automatic car is quicker than the manual version in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile.
    It's true that the GTO is quicker with the auto, but the LS2 is anything but a small high revving engine. It revs alright, but it's not small. Even in the case of the GTO the manual puts more horsepower to the rear wheels but the traction control program in the pcm makes the automatic car a point and shoot affair when it comes to laucnhing it, the manual still requires driver input to properly launch. If you check the trap speed, the manual is faster indicating higher horsepower output to the wheels. As a rule, the smaller the displacement the more it will benefit from a manual tranny. That's not my opinion, that's fact. I owned an LT1/4L60E equipped '67 Impala SS for over 5 years, my son had '96 LT1 Formula Ram Air with M6. I can tell you that his car was quicker than the same car with an automatic.

    The pcm is an issue as well, fuel and timing curves are quite different from manual to automatic. Having done several late model efi engine conversions into other vehicles requiring custom tuning, I can tell you the pcm matters.

  12. #57
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy_W
    It's true that the GTO is quicker with the auto, but the LS2 is anything but a small high revving engine. It revs alright, but it's not small. Even in the case of the GTO the manual puts more horsepower to the rear wheels but the traction control program in the pcm makes the automatic car a point and shoot affair when it comes to laucnhing it, the manual still requires driver input to properly launch. If you check the trap speed, the manual is faster indicating higher horsepower output to the wheels. As a rule, the smaller the displacement the more it will benefit from a manual tranny. That's not my opinion, that's fact. I owned an LT1/4L60E equipped '67 Impala SS for over 5 years, my son had '96 LT1 Formula Ram Air with M6. I can tell you that his car was quicker than the same car with an automatic.
    The pcm is an issue as well, fuel and timing curves are quite different from manual to automatic. Having done several late model efi engine conversions into other vehicles requiring custom tuning, I can tell you the pcm matters.
    Randy,
    I never said the PCM doesn't matter, I said that in THIS instance the engine design (particularly the heads and cam) is more of an issue than the PCM tuning. And if I'm reading your first sentence right, you misunderstood my post. I said that big engines with low, broad powerbands do better with automatics, and that's what the GTO has, and why it does better with an automatic IMO. Having more gears helps to a point and that's always been another advantage of the manual but nowadays, automatics have as many gears as the manuals.

  13. #58
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    Re: Who here owns a Lincoln Mark VIII?

    Automatics have really only become quicker than manuals thanks to computerized traction control systems that are designed to launch the car with as little wheelspin as possible, IE GTO.

    Anyway, the Northstar's powerband isn't as 'peaky' as the Ford 4.6 but it's still no 500 - a manual would definately benefit it.

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