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Cadillac or competing brand model ? Why ? Discussion, Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."? in Item Specific Cadillac Discussion; I hope this catches on!! Horbury no longer thinks Lincoln must have a uniform face....
  1. #31
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    I hope this catches on!!

    Horbury no longer thinks Lincoln must have a uniform face.

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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    Enjoy these debates while you can, at the rate things are going, we may not have Cadillac and Lincoln around much longer.

    Can you imagine passionate discussions about Daewoos and Scions, frankly I
    can't !

    A whole generation of "single mom raised" young men think that a Honda CRX is a bad ass sports car........

    Help!

  3. #33
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    Quote Originally Posted by David W. Bailey
    Enjoy these debates while you can, at the rate things are going, we may not have Cadillac and Lincoln around much longer.
    Can you imagine passionate discussions about Daewoos and Scions, frankly I
    can't !
    A whole generation of "single mom raised" young men think that a Honda CRX is a bad ass sports car........
    Help!
    You've gone and done it now.


  4. #34
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    What did I do?

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    Was Lincoln ever an actual priority?

    In my humble opinion, Lincoln needs to find a new niche to stay competitive. Rather, Lincoln needs to use its history as its niche. From being a former Lincoln/Mercury salesman (everyone has skeletons in the closet), most of the sales guys I worked with saw the rivalry as being something of tradition. My knowledge may be a couple years old (I started when the 0% interest was trying to buoy post 9/11 sales), but it’s something I’ve argued for a while.

    The dealership I worked for was on one of these “Automile” setups, with everything from Daewoo to Porsche within 5 minutes of each other. All of us salesmen were sent to stroke the other dealerships, learn about the competition. I was sent out to compare the LS to the 3 series and A6. In both cases, I left feeling like I was looking up at Goliath and had no rocks around me. The LS was a great car, but I never felt it could compete.

    Lincoln, listen to me. You need to drop the “understated luxury” approach you tried to sell on me way back when. You’re an up-market Mercury, so don’t try to compete with something billed as the “Ultimate Driving Machine.” Sell yourself on flash and history. Make your car something that I want to ride low and slow. Make your car into something I want to pull up to a casino in while decked out in a gaudy pin-stripped suit and with a stripper on each arm. Cadillac has a global fighter on its hands, so why not ask if you can borrow the cattle horn hood ornament for a while.

    As I said, it’s just my humble opinion.

  6. #36
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    Re: Was Lincoln ever an actual priority?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTooth
    In my humble opinion, Lincoln needs to find a new niche to stay competitive. Rather, Lincoln needs to use its history as its niche. From being a former Lincoln/Mercury salesman (everyone has skeletons in the closet), most of the sales guys I worked with saw the rivalry as being something of tradition. My knowledge may be a couple years old (I started when the 0% interest was trying to buoy post 9/11 sales), but it’s something I’ve argued for a while.
    The dealership I worked for was on one of these “Automile” setups, with everything from Daewoo to Porsche within 5 minutes of each other. All of us salesmen were sent to stroke the other dealerships, learn about the competition. I was sent out to compare the LS to the 3 series and A6. In both cases, I left feeling like I was looking up at Goliath and had no rocks around me. The LS was a great car, but I never felt it could compete.
    Lincoln, listen to me. You need to drop the “understated luxury” approach you tried to sell on me way back when. You’re an up-market Mercury, so don’t try to compete with something billed as the “Ultimate Driving Machine.” Sell yourself on flash and history. Make your car something that I want to ride low and slow. Make your car into something I want to pull up to a casino in while decked out in a gaudy pin-stripped suit and with a stripper on each arm. Cadillac has a global fighter on its hands, so why not ask if you can borrow the cattle horn hood ornament for a while.
    As I said, it’s just my humble opinion.
    Very well said... You might just be right. Lincoln might as well try to take the reigns of the classic american luxo-barge approach for a while, and possibly infuse some high performance models into the lineup at the same time, as the Mark IX concept dave mentioned earlier. Certainly plenty of people on this forum constantly complain that there are no traditional American luxury cars on the road, I believe Lincoln might be able to continue the Town Car as it is and introduce perhaps one more large and in charge traditional luxury car, perhaps by reintroducing the Continental.

    I really disagree with everyone who beats on the LS though. I drove the 99 and 2000 models way back when and I was immensely impressed with how close the car came to actually FEELING like a BMW 3 Series in the overall handling and ESPECIALLY the way the power came from the engine, it felt very similar to the Germans. In 2003 they really brought the LS in line with the technology of a host of German and Japanese competitors thousands more expensive with Xenon lights, THX sound, cooled seats etc. Had they CONTINUED that momentum with a performance variant, and made the styling a little more agressive, in addition to a better advertising campaign... it would have done wonders for Lincoln and especially for the LS program.

    The Zephyr is a piece of crap Mazda ripoff. Thats OK for the Fusion as it serves an entirely different market... but for Lincoln? Its insanity.

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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    how close the (LS) came to actually FEELING like a BMW 3 Series ... it felt very similar to the Germans.
    The LS was a good car, great for Lincoln. It wasn't, however, on par with the Germans. It felt a lot like a 3 series, but it wasn't all there.

    Here's an example of what I mean. The autostick they offered in the beginning was worse than any modern Mopar tranny. There was a guy who went for a while getting a tranny a month. He might have been rough on it, but it was an issue of it being in drive and deciding for the driver to go into stick mode. When the driver didn't shift, you had problems. Compare this to the Audi stick at the time. (I compare it to Audi because my demo at the time was a used Audi) When you neglect to shift with the stick in manual mode, it would pick up on this and shift for you. On a lesser note, the Audi let me drop it into first whereas the Lincoln didn't.

    The LS debate still leaves out the fact that one car cannot carry a make like Lincoln. The Navigator was not a bad truck, but it can't compete with the Escalade in one important area. Ford makes SUVs that ride like trucks, where GM makes SUVs that ride like cars.

    That said, this is why I drive an Eldo instead of a Continental.

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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    I like the idea of Lincoln going back to being big pimpin ass G machines. Make the Town Car square again, make it even bigger - and if a blown 5.4 can make a 4600lb Lightning fast then put something similar in a Town Car. Make a Mark IX that's big and can haul serious ass. Make the Navigator bigger and better than the Escalade or QX56. Lincoln could easily pull it off too, size and power are no stranger to the company...

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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    I like the idea of Lincoln going back to being big pimpin ass G machines. Make the Town Car square again, make it even bigger - and if a blown 5.4 can make a 4600lb Lightning fast then put something similar in a Town Car. Make a Mark IX that's big and can haul serious ass. Make the Navigator bigger and better than the Escalade or QX56. Lincoln could easily pull it off too, size and power are no stranger to the company...
    Well at least one of your wishes is coming true... An extended length version of the Expedition is close to production, and Lincoln will be getting their version of it as well. Kinda like an ESV I guess.

  10. #40
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    As a Lincoln owner (61 Continental-93 Town Car), I honestly want the brand to survive. I love Lincolns, especially 60's and 70 Continental's (which I believe was Lincolns best era).

    Lincoln never truly competed with Cadillac if you look back into history, the 50's was all Caddy, Lincoln couldn't figure out what it wanted to be, or look like. They really never came close in sales to Cadillac, because the design of there cars were like a side show up until 61, when the beautiful suicide door Continental saved the company from death.

    As an owner of a 61 Linc, I can truly say it's a great car, that is built like a tank, and then some. It's reliable, though complex, the engineering that went into these cars was impressive. The Design institute of Technology even gave the car a bronze metal for it's overall design. One of my favorite features of my 61, is the big bad MEL 430 and the suicide doors! The beast smokes, it stinks like fumes, but the engine runs smooth as silk even though it's sludged up and has 95,000 miles on the ODO. The horsepower is rated at only 300 HP, but the MEL 430's were well known to be torque monsters. Fords PCA cast iron transmission is actually a great one. It's a unique transmission, but shifts smooth and feels like it's hardly working at all.The high quality of 60's Continentals is one major factor on why these cars sold so well. Everything about them are heavy duty and luxury to the fullest, nothing was shared in terms of body parts, engine, transmission with other Ford vehicles because Lincolns in the 60's were there own cars, and it stayed that way up until 69, they even did a 12 mile road test on each Continental in the 60's to make sure everything worked properly, so that the dealership didn't have to do anything like adjust the carb or fix small stuff that the Wixom Plant failed to do. Even though they are unibody in design, the bodies are so rigged and strong, that they ddin't need a separate frame for added strength, because the sheet metal was so thick it acted as a frame within itself. One major problem that 60's Lincolns suffer from, IS RUST! Once it starts you get cancer rust, there is no way saving the body. Clogged/ badly designed drain plugs are usually to blame, also living in the Mid West or North East is another 60's Lincoln killer.

    Think about this, a 61 Lincoln is much smaller than a 61 Deville, but the Lincoln weighs a good 400-500lbs more than the Caddy. Just driving my 61, it feels very heavy, but it handles like a sports car because it doesn't float, it has a short body, and it stays flat at all times since it weighs so much. The ride is extremely smooth even with a busted up suspension, combined with great handling, is why I love the early 60's Continentals, the late 60's got bigger, but lost it's classic looks and sporty characteristics. Lincoln saved itself in the 60's, they got everything right, and finally was able to create it's own identity in which people started to take notice, Cadillac definitely did, and they weren't too too happy either. The classic blade like sharpness of Lincolns was there trademark, if it wasn't for the 61, who knows where Lincoln would be today, probably blowing in wind somewhere. Surprisingly, GM and Chrysler were so impressed by the 61 Conti, that they started to design cars to almost look like Lincolns, the trend from big chrome, fat bodies, made way for a more crisp, sharp edge look which Lincoln started. Shoot, Elwood Engle, the designer of the 61 Conti, was stolen by Chrysler to redesign there Imperial! That's how impressed Chrysler was by the 61, that they wanted the guy who made it.

    The small production numbers of Lincs, just goes to show how much rarer a 60's Continental is compared to a 60's Cadillac. Caddys had multiple models with different trim levels, while Lincoln only had the 4 door sedan and vert. Many things were standard in Conti's, which adds to the luxury factor. Yeah maybe 60's Lincs aren't flashy, but it doesn't have to be. The understated elegance, sometimes is better than "Hey Look at Me, I'm in a Caddy!!!!!" Some people like to be noticed, others don't, because driving a Lincoln automatically demands respect, while Cadillac's give off that showy, trying to hard to be rich look. I'm, speaking on behalf of the old school Lincs and Cad's, not the modern stuff.

  11. #41
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    Almost FOUR years????????????







    NOW
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  12. #42
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    I'm so Sorry, but this thread caught my attention. As a continuation, I would also like to say that Lincoln has always been behind in just about every category, compared to Cadillac. The best thing Lincoln had going for itself was build quality, and the great looks in the 70's. The 78 Mark V's and 78 Town Coupe are one of the best looking cars of all time. They totally blow away Caddys in looks, adding to the fact, the interiors looked much more plush as well.

    Obviously Ford doesn't have any kind of interest in making Lincoln a first rate luxury car to compete head on with Lexus, BMW, and Cadillac. All there cars are re badged Ford crap, and consumers see right through this false attempt by Lincoln. They truly need to bring back the Continental and charge $100,000 for it, because it will show consumers that the company is serious about changing it's image, and creating a product that people will love and enjoy.

    Lincoln can't constantly share platforms with Ford, this is a no no with any luxury auto. When People buy a luxury car, they want to feel like they bought something special, a car that is truly its own, and built with top quality parts and materials. But by Ford sharing stuff with Lincoln in many ways, its killing itself. What really needs to change is it's upper management. It always starts from up above, if they have a business man calling all the shots a guy that has no interest in car, but knows how to reduce cost by cutting corners everywhere, then the brand will continue to fail and lack major improvement. But if a true car guy, a person that really enjoys creating new things is running the building, then just maybe things can turn around.

    Ford is just too damn cheap though, they have never really been a company that gave you everything, they were too conservative in many ways, from styling, to performance, to name branding, everything seemed so blah and plain when you ever heard people speaking about Ford cars. Now GM on the other hand, was a forward thinking company that always gave you more for less. They had the best designers, they made the best cars, had the coolest looking cars, had chrome galore on the old Caddys, Buicks, and Chevy's. Performance wise, GM was mostly was ahead of Ford throughout history, GM made better engines, they had the best engineers and so on.

    As history tells us, Ford will probably not pay too much attention to Lincoln. They understand the brand will never be Cadillac cool, but something has to be done now to help the company move forward, and design cars that people want. Us car fanatics, we have many of the Auto Companies answers, we tell them, what we like, but yet they never listen to us! We give them idea's, they turn there heads. The business aspect of running an auto company prevents anything from being done. Too much financial, political, and cost cutting measure have hurt the big 3, they are always looking for ways to cut cost, and it shows up in the interiors of many cars, like too much cheap plastic, quality of the paint and construction materials all suffer because GM and Ford decided they can't afford nice stuff. Well then, people wont buy there cars, once consumers start noticing cheapening of certain models, they will turn around and walk away. But of course, nobody in management will listen to us measly little car people, what do we know, right??


    Lincoln used to make great cars, true luxury cars, now it's just sad, the Town Car is still the same from 1998 body style, nothings really changed, besides a few new models here and there that never last. They are constantly bringing out different stuff that nobody cares for, because like I said, Lincoln is simply re badged Ford, at least Cadillac has it's own chassis, engine, design, and parts, while Lincoln doesn't. That's the major difference between the 2 brands, plus the technology that Cadillac has put into it's cars, totally blows away any Lincoln.

    Drastic Change must come for Lincoln, or else they will pass sooner than later.

  13. #43
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    Re: Ford Design Chief: "Lincoln off Priority List.."?

    Lincoln needs to find a way to make the towncar more efficient like maybe a partial hybrid? That car is rock solid and very very dependable. TLC is phasing that car out because of it fuel economy which is a total sales hit for ford similar to when chrysler discontinued the dodge diplomat in 1989 remembers that was the police car of choice.

    I dont like any of the new front wheel drive lincolns. I agree they should not have killed the LS but that was an expensive car to build and ford just was not making enough profit on them i guess?

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