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Cadillac Audio, Video and Security Systems Discussion, After Market High End Audio Options? in Item Specific Cadillac Discussion; Originally Posted by Lanman The problem with tapping into the factory system after the amp is that you're taking your ...
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanman
    The problem with tapping into the factory system after the amp is that you're taking your amplifier and amplifing the crappy output of the Bose amplifier. I've also heard that the Bose amplifier has internal crossovers so that means that your amplifier won't receive a full range signal. The ideal solution (when trying to keep the factory radio) is to tap into the radio outputs before they reach the Bose amplifier. Strangletooth mentioned something about someone making a "box" that will keep all the radio functions and provide four RCA outs. That's what we really need. Maybe Strangletooth can dig up some more details for us.
    Err, not really. 1) the BOSE and non-Bose door speaker outputs are full range signals as far as I can tell (I hooked a speaker up and got good bass and good highs from it) - plus if you look at the schematics, the door speaker in the bose system also feed the tweeter as well, which means that circuit cannot have crossovers. 2) if you convert the bose signal to line level, you convert all the distortion out of the system. The distortion in Bose systems is typically caused by bose using 2 and 1 ohm speakers, which causes distortion - it's not usually amp-caused. 3) while I would love to wait for this converter that is supposedly coming, I have two problems, - I want to do this now, AND the radio only sends two (2) outputs to the amp, the amp them controls the fadind via Class 2 serial data. If you tap the radio outs, you only have left to right balance control, but no fader, unless they come out with something that can "talk" to the class 2 data...
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    Err, not really. 1) the BOSE and non-Bose door speaker outputs are full range signals as far as I can tell (I hooked a speaker up and got good bass and good highs from it) - plus if you look at the schematics, the door speaker in the bose system also feed the tweeter as well, which means that circuit cannot have crossovers. 2) if you convert the bose signal to line level, you convert all the distortion out of the system. The distortion in Bose systems is typically caused by bose using 2 and 1 ohm speakers, which causes distortion - it's not usually amp-caused. 3) while I would love to wait for this converter that is supposedly coming, I have two problems, - I want to do this now, AND the radio only sends two (2) outputs to the amp, the amp them controls the fadind via Class 2 serial data. If you tap the radio outs, you only have left to right balance control, but no fader, unless they come out with something that can "talk" to the class 2 data...
    If I'm reading the schematics correctly, the Bose has full range output from the amp and feed into a seperate crossover. The non-bose unfortunately has the crossover built into the amplifier.

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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    Err, not really. 1) the BOSE and non-Bose door speaker outputs are full range signals as far as I can tell (I hooked a speaker up and got good bass and good highs from it) - plus if you look at the schematics, the door speaker in the bose system also feed the tweeter as well, which means that circuit cannot have crossovers. 2) if you convert the bose signal to line level, you convert all the distortion out of the system. The distortion in Bose systems is typically caused by bose using 2 and 1 ohm speakers, which causes distortion - it's not usually amp-caused. 3) while I would love to wait for this converter that is supposedly coming, I have two problems, - I want to do this now, AND the radio only sends two (2) outputs to the amp, the amp them controls the fadind via Class 2 serial data. If you tap the radio outs, you only have left to right balance control, but no fader, unless they come out with something that can "talk" to the class 2 data...
    Okay, I don't claim to be an expert but this is my understanding of how this works...

    in response to 1) I would expect the door speakers to be full range and almost all low to mid range tweeters have their crossovers mounted to the speaker itself. I guess my biggest concern is the sub outputs from the amp. I can't imagine that it's not crossed over and I really hate the crossover point that the Bose systems use.

    in response to 2) Converting a signal to line level doesn't remove any distortion. Basically, it doesn't matter how you convert the signal... high to low or low to high... if you put in crap, you get crap back out. Also, distortion isn't effected by the risistance of the speakers. At least not with good quality amplifiers. In fact, the lower the resistance of the speaker, the higher the output of the amp. ie... 4 x 25 watts at 4 ohms and 4 x 30 watts at 2 ohms.

    in response to 3) That's soooooo screwed up. I can't understand why companies instist on creating proprietary hardware like that. It's just soooooo screwed up.

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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanman
    Okay, I don't claim to be an expert but this is my understanding of how this works...

    in response to 1) I would expect the door speakers to be full range and almost all low to mid range tweeters have their crossovers mounted to the speaker itself. I guess my biggest concern is the sub outputs from the amp. I can't imagine that it's not crossed over and I really hate the crossover point that the Bose systems use. But in my suggestion, you use the midrange door speaker out puts giving you the 4 channels you need, and full range output.

    in response to 2) Converting a signal to line level doesn't remove any distortion. Basically, it doesn't matter how you convert the signal... high to low or low to high... if you put in crap, you get crap back out. Also, distortion isn't effected by the risistance of the speakers. At least not with good quality amplifiers. In fact, the lower the resistance of the speaker, the higher the output of the amp. ie... 4 x 25 watts at 4 ohms and 4 x 30 watts at 2 ohms.

    in response to 3) That's soooooo screwed up. I can't understand why companies instist on creating proprietary hardware like that. It's just soooooo screwed up.
    In response to your reponse to 1) It doesn't matter if the sub is crossed, you don't use it for your line outs. The tweeters on the non-bose are crossed at the amp, there are no caps on the speakers. I've already replaced them with kenwoods. On the Bose system, it looks like there is a splice pack where the tweeters get crossed somewhere between the amp and the speaker- same place the signal splits off and goes to doors and tweeters.

    In response to 2) I have to totally disagree. The ohm load on an amplifier is almost ALWAYS the reason for distortion. I think the bose amp probably is a good, relatively distortion-free amp, but when you decrease resistance (like you have said) you increase the load on the amp producing more volume, but also producing much more distortion. In fact, my Kenwood amp itself is rated at .08% THD at 4ohm load, and .8% THD at 2ohm load. Imagine what it would be like a 1ohm! Bose is NOTORIOUS for driving their amps hard to get good volume, but they are known for having very bad distortion, and the reason is NOT because of the amps, but because of the speaker load choices they make in almost every application. In the CTS, the door speakers are 2ohm speakers, and paper cones. That spells disaster and has distortion written all over it...

    In response to 3) Yeah, it's frustrating, but the reasoning behind it is because of the implementation of Digital signal processing. The head unit sends one L&R signal, then the amp processes the signal.
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    I took a little time last night and did some experimenting. This is for non-base U2R/U66 systems:

    The front tweeters are crossed, not at the speaker, but probably at the amp. I plugged a full range speaker into the tweeter line and could only get highs.

    The door speakers look like full range. I plugged a full range (2 way 4" speaker) and got good highs.

    The subwoofer is crossed. I plugged the same speaker in there, and got almost nothing but a little "burble"...

    So it looks like the midrange outs (front and rear door speakers) are the ones to tap for adding your own system.
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    I remember a while back when I was replacing my front speakers with infinity reference components, the installer thought the door speakers were full range and hooked up the infinity crossover to that channel. This gave me very unclear highs and distortion at the tweeters at moderately high volume. I unhooked the tweeters from the crossover, removed the crossover, and hooked the tweeters directly up to the tweeter line from the amp and it sounded MUCH better. No distortion at any volume and the highs were very clear at all levels. This is why I think that the door speakers have a high cut-off which the amp passes to the tweeters.

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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbai2
    I remember a while back when I was replacing my front speakers with infinity reference components, the installer thought the door speakers were full range and hooked up the infinity crossover to that channel. This gave me very unclear highs and distortion at the tweeters at moderately high volume. I unhooked the tweeters from the crossover, removed the crossover, and hooked the tweeters directly up to the tweeter line from the amp and it sounded MUCH better. No distortion at any volume and the highs were very clear at all levels. This is why I think that the door speakers have a high cut-off which the amp passes to the tweeters.
    Were you aware that the door speakers are 2 ohm from the factory? Which means if you run a 4 ohm speaker there, you will cut the wattage that the amp sends there in half. This could explain the poor performance and distortion.
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Never crossed my mind but now that you mention it, that was most likely the reason. There is no distortion in the midrange speakers at full volume which is probably due to the higher impedance. It's weird that I can't hear any noticeable decrease in volume as compared to the stock speakers. Will running higher impedance speakers damage the amp in the long run? What's the impedance on the rear door speakers?

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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    Ask and you shall receive:

    http://www.gpowner.com/mods/nav.pdf

    If I am reading that right, the only thing you may need to add is the two Nav Signal wires back to the bose amp (lower right). I think the radio already has the Coax Nav Attenna for Onstar (My radio [single disc]) has a coax connection already made in back...However, it DOES require the Bose amp .
    This just crossed my mind about the two Nav leads. These leads, I assume, are used for the navigation voice prompts ("Turn left"). I wonder if it would work if you just spliced these wires into the pre-amp wires coming out of the back of the radio instead of running the wires all the way to the trunk. This would also save the trouble of buying a new amplifier. Other than no automatic muting of music when the system speaks, I don't see any other problems. I haven't used a CTS navigation system enough to know the details of when and how the voice prompts are announced so if anyone who has extensively used the system can foresee a problem in doing this, let me know.

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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbai2
    This just crossed my mind about the two Nav leads. These leads, I assume, are used for the navigation voice prompts ("Turn left"). I wonder if it would work if you just spliced these wires into the pre-amp wires coming out of the back of the radio instead of running the wires all the way to the trunk. This would also save the trouble of buying a new amplifier. Other than no automatic muting of music when the system speaks, I don't see any other problems. I haven't used a CTS navigation system enough to know the details of when and how the voice prompts are announced so if anyone who has extensively used the system can foresee a problem in doing this, let me know.
    Hmm...Interesting thought. I bet though, that the radio sends a class 2 data command to the amp to mute the incoming audio signal on the regular line, and switch to the incoming Nav signal on the nav inputs...I bet what you would get is simply a muting of the amp - or worse nothing since maybe the BOSE amp is the only amp that would be able to interpret that class 2 data and even mute...Hmm...Or maybe since the U66 amp can't interpret the data, it might not mute, and you'd have the nav signal intertwined with the regular audio signal. Tough call...

    You could route the nav audio into a separate small amp or something going to one speaker, perhaps located close to you, to broadcast the nav commands separate from the audio system....

    One thing to note though...I did find out where to get the headunits. Unfortunately, they do not have any yet - the bose 6 disc would run me $627, BUT the nav units are.... $3197...
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbai2
    Never crossed my mind but now that you mention it, that was most likely the reason. There is no distortion in the midrange speakers at full volume which is probably due to the higher impedance. It's weird that I can't hear any noticeable decrease in volume as compared to the stock speakers. Will running higher impedance speakers damage the amp in the long run? What's the impedance on the rear door speakers?
    Your Midranges are probably a higher quality speaker, so they have a higher sensitivity. I think I read that paper cone factory speakers are usually in the 70's, and most aftermarket speakers are in the 90s. So better output with less wattage. You also are not running the inline crossover right? - the inline crossover probably drained some watts when hooked up...

    I don't believe there is anything bad about running a 4 ohm speaker on an amp normally running 2 ohm on it, especially when the tweeters are indeed 4 ohm from the factory. But I'm not an audio expert.

    Rear doors? Can't remember, will check again when I do the frequency test.
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    EDITED:

    U66 / Non-BOSE

    Well, it's done. The tweeter is deffinitely crossed, and the sub is crossed, and it looks like the front door is crossed, but the rear door speakers are not crossed. The crossover looks to be a measly 6db at best, so it does not taper off fast (hense the poor sounding "component" system) - most good crossovers are atleast 12db but typically 18db, so they cutout non-used frequencies much quicker. Go here for the spectrum diagrams (the last link):

    http://www.ctsowners.com/docs/radio/

    Also, the tweeters are 4ohm, the front doors are 2ohm, the back doors are 4ohm, and the sub is two 2ohm voice coils.
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    I wonder why they chose to go with 2 Ohm on the front doors. It makes finding aftermarket speakers impossible without replacing the amp. I guess I could wire to identical 4 ohm speakers in parellel but I have no idea where I'd put the second set.

    Where can you order the headunits? Was the nav system DVD or CD? Do they come with the navigation discs? Grey or Black? That equipment is damn expensive.

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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    I may be wrong now. I think I am.

    I really got curious about the front door speaker spectrum, as if you look at it, it does taper a little around 6-7Khz. So I ran again today a 1/24db specific analysis on front door compared to rear door.

    Well, when I ran the specific, on the same music section, the rear door speaker had noticable peaks up to 20khz, and alot more "activity" (peaking) between 6khz and 20khz, where the front door, over the same music section, was much more linear and flat.

    I am of the opinion *now* that the front speakers, the tweeter and the door, are both crossed, but with very poor crossovers (3-6db rolloff)... which visually a 1/6octave analysis is not noticable.

    But there is definitely more highs going to the rear speaker.

    Looks like tapping the signals out of the amp with not result in full range output from the front speakers.........
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    Re: After Market High End Audio Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    I may be wrong now. I think I am.

    I really got curious about the front door speaker spectrum, as if you look at it, it does taper a little around 6-7Khz. So I ran again today a 1/24db specific analysis on front door compared to rear door.

    Well, when I ran the specific, on the same music section, the rear door speaker had noticable peaks up to 20khz, and alot more "activity" (peaking) between 6khz and 20khz, where the front door, over the same music section, was much more linear and flat.

    I am of the opinion *now* that the front speakers, the tweeter and the door, are both crossed, but with very poor crossovers (3-6db rolloff)... which visually a 1/6octave analysis is not noticable.

    But there is definitely more highs going to the rear speaker.

    Looks like tapping the signals out of the amp with not result in full range output from the front speakers.........
    That would explain the crappy sound I was getting from the tweeters when my components were hooked up incorrectly. Looks like "the box" is going to be the only solution.

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