Some navigation questions
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  1. #1
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Some navigation questions

    Hello, as few of you know I am looking to convert my 97 STS with Base Delco Sound System to Denso Navigation, (absolutely positively out of the question going aftermarket).

    Short story…2002 and up Denso NAV in ‘97 STS does it works (even with extreme rewiring)?

    So far I know (and I did spent a lot of nights looking among the related posts on this and other similar sites) that most (actually all) retrofits were done on ’98-‘03 STS/SLS. I already know what I need (Thanks Jason!) but I have few questions (or demons witch are keeping me from having a sound sleep).
    I am looking for people like Jason, eclipse5302, lownoma18, Ur7x, jmmast02, kdsevillle, low Timer and so many others with the retrofit done for some pointers before the journey. Well actually if somebody come in front with a ’96 or ’97 retrofit then all my worries are over.

    So here I go:
    1. You need BOSE (i.e. RIM and individual speaker amplifiers). I already have the RIM and all connectors from a 99 Eldo (thanks SLOWnSTEADY!). I also have the BOSE rear speakers (brand new) all I need at the moment are the front speakers to complete the BOSE setup. Nobody had to go with this extra step since BOSE was there.
    2. I need to rewire the car (easy for me I electronic engineer). On top to the BOSE related wires I need to add the VSS wire (is F2, F4 or both?) and not sure about the backup sensing wire (somebody?). And if I need this is negative (-) or positive (+12V)?
    3. Interior lamps, one of the problems, the ’97 (and up to a certain year the post ’98) use the two wires for the HU backlights. Ok they have to go since the NAV unit connects the wires to the ground. The actual light command is communicated via data bus. Does anybody know if this is also the case with ’97? Looking to my FSM I see no spot where would be required but the IPC does know the light status, does it broadcast this on the bus?
    4. Steering wheel controls. It kind off pass to my ears that ’98 has some issue and the NAV unit does not recognize them. Is this true?
    5. Park/Drive status. I also understand some people (with earlier iterations of post ‘98 vehicles) have this problem: the NAV unit thinks is in drive all the time. Is this true? If so is there a work around this? The PCM does knows the shifter position, is also communicated to the data bus (think to the door lock out of park, driver seat adjusts and so on). Again is there an issue here? Can anybody clarify the override code thing (why is needed if no issue)?
    6. This is direct for Jason, you specified the 5-th generation has some issues with the DVD bypass code can you extend this idea pleeeeease?
    7. CD Changer, ok, ok, is clear I have to ditch the 12 Disk and go with a 6 disk that communicates on the data bus and not the E+C data (removed on the NAV units).
    8. Aux input, clear as crystal (nifty function too!).
    9. GPS antenna no issue here all clear.
    10. Voice commands, I know you need OnStar for the button, you need to wire on the small connector in the back of the NAV unit, dealer program and so on…is the last thing on my mind (if all works but this…fine by me as a start).
    11. Maps disk: I have the most stupid question…dose the NAV unit runs the maps from the DVD or is just a first time setup (and eventual updates)?
    12. One of the most important questions, if the unit is new (say I get a brand new one from the dealer – $$$ if I am crazy, or what ever…) do you still need the dealer to program the VIN or first time automatically learns the VIN no TechII intervention needed?
    13. I kind of had this impression that you can use (limited functions) the unit with a different VIN (that would be before you go to the dealer) as long as you don’t start the car or something?
    14. Aaa, and Radio antenna, not power-antenna anymore after ’98 or so (now is a module), also the unit keeps the old fashion antenna input. Am I right, can the power antenna be used (I see the control wire is still there)?
    15. I also see some video input stuff, not that it would matter at the moment.

    I really appreciate any answers on the above questions, I surely hate spending around $1000 to just experiment.
    Sorry was long but I have so many questions….

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  3. #2
    kdsevillle's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    It's been covered before, search threw the threads. I think STS2003 is working on a conversion but he's a busy man so it'll be some time before he can finish.

  4. #3
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    KD I read al I was able to find and access on this subject (one of the best threads for some reason is not accessible anymore). But after reading all the posts I could find I have still the above questions. This is why I was hoping that you and all the other peoples I listed (I am sure I missed a lot) can share some of the experience. Like I mentioned for me is a $1000 gamble.
    Somewhere in one of the post is a link to the NAV unit manual. The link is not working anymore. Can anybody help me with the manual or any related material? I have the wire diagram (witch is 70% of what I need), I already made some of the harness (especially the one between the car harness and the HU). All I am still looking for are the answers to the above questions and a fantastic deal for a NAV unit (maybe not the $130 to $270 prices you guys got it for but something close).
    Anybody in a 100 miles radius of Toronto with a Tech II?

  5. #4
    CadillacSTS42005's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    1. Yup bose needed
    2. F2 on nav is vss that is needed no backup wire
    3. When i had a factory nav in my 97 ETC it sensed the illum wire no prob through the data class
    4. Wheel controls work just fine baring temp up, on all nav cars this was a mic button and on my moms 98 whenever you press this the temp will go up but the nav says something along the lines of "command not recognized"
    5/6 If the car is not running the nav open and work fine, if the car is running it does not sense park ever and the 1791 bypass must be entered, if you avoid the last run of nav systems from an 05 car or a car that has been replaced with a new one you should by fine using the bypasses when needed.
    7. Correct a 02+ Deville Seville 6 disc changer will be need along with repinning/adding wires to your cd changer plug
    8. Glad you get it
    9. Again good
    10. Forget it you dont have onstar built in, your car used a cell phone for it, wont work, cant add it moving on...
    11. Disc needs to be in to use navigation, does not need to be in there if your only listening to music/etc.
    12. Theftlock active will appear unless you buy a brand new nav tech ii is needed $35 to relearn the vin is the cost
    13. 1st time the unit is in so long as you only put the key into accessory it will not send the vin to verify and "SHOULD" work fine some units can some units cant Gen1&2 work like this 3 had issues. 4&5 forget it, the second you turn the car on it will lock up and STAY locked until it is programmed
    14. Again worked fine on my 97
    15. Part of the aux in is audio as well as video

    sorry it took long to respond you asked alot and i knew id need alot of free time to answer it which i just dont have usually anymore

  6. #5
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    You are the MAN!!!
    Thank you very, very, very, much for your reply.
    Almost 10 years ago I was in university January and May was the worst time of the year: the end semester exams (like 7 or 8 per semester). Starting from this time I was kind of starting to prepare for the hell to come…so again I relay appreciate your info and time.

    So is working in ’97 that’s a big one.
    Illumination data is broadcaster on the data bus (is good to know but after a night of soldering I should be able to work around the problem)
    Wheel controls are working again a very big one
    Brand-new Nav unit no tech II needed, this is a $100 discount to the retrofit. So if I find a brand new unit just $100 more (yeah right) I should go for it (here in Canada dealer charges $100 for VIN learning).
    Disk in the Nav, this kind off sucks, so I can not play music and use the Nav unless I have the CD changer.
    Voice commands…ehh, maybe after I have all installed I will consider tackling this issue as an interesting hobby project.

    Now where do I find the front doors BOSE speaker (preferably new) money will reflect the condition, and that reasonably priced Denso Nav unit (preferable first 2 generations)?

    Again J really thank you, at least I know is working, ‘97 data bus and Nav unit are speaking the same language .

  7. #6
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    HUH!

    This is something…so I was watching this brand new NAV unit for sale on E-bay, I offered the guy the $600 (Buy Now price) all I asked him the shipping price for Canada. He did not replied to me but instead just sold the unit accepting one of the offers ($500). Is this guy and IDIOT or what?????
    Man I am so pissed off!

  8. #7
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Jesus what an IDIOT! (sorry can go over it )
    He just set me back $150, I can express enough how upset I am, the fact that he actually lost $100 from me almost made up but man
    I kind of believe he just bought “himself” the unit and is going to list it back for more (considering the interest – 12 offers - and the price for similar items). Anyway something is fishy about this guy…all his transactions are “private”.
    So any way I just bought a brand NEW Denso NAV unit (another one, not the one from this IDIOT).

    The part number is 25755259. Although is none of the 5 part numbers J enumerated here, I found-it mentioned somewhere (I think Ur7x installed this unit in his car).
    Just out of curiosity, anybody knows this part number? Ur7x, J?
    Witch generation is this?
    Then, what NAV Disk P# I need?
    I also read here (from eclipse5302) that an Alpine GPS antenna is compatible with the Denso NAV unit. Panasonic will work too (but I hate Panasonic – no reason, just don’t like this brand). Is this true? Either one goes for under $20 on E-Bay (and you can find tons literally). The Alpine antenna come whit 2 m – 5 m cable (gives you more freedom), while the OEM is almost 3 times the price (and a very short cable). Here is a picture with one:
    6b3b_1.jpg

    Moving forward, although I just broke my bank I am one step closer to my dream: OEM-ish NAV in 1997 STS (not to mention I am starting with a non-BOSE car).
    All I need now is a set of front BOSE speakers and the long gone warm whether to complete the project, oh yeah, and another CD changer. At least I need no visit to the dealer (that’s a $100 save $$).
    Looks like this car is going to cost me almost $15K this year alone (and the 2008 is not finished yet).

  9. #8
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    congrats
    i seen that unit too
    was just posted last night
    alpine/kenwood nav antenna will work

  10. #9
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    WOW!
    Check out the prices for the Kenwood antennas (~$60), I guess I am going with Alpine. J I hope you were not among the two offers on the unit.
    How about the disk J, you know a P#?
    This is going to be interesting, about 4-5 years ago during my Master I was developing mapping and data acquisition software for a GPS application. The actual hardware (and firmware) for the GPS/GSM unit was made by a small company a friend of mine is owning (smart guy, he is also an assistant in the same University I went). I did the GPS (SMS initially then CSD/GPRS) data acquisition part and the utility software used by the computer operators to build the map. It was an interesting project; the unit in the car was more designed for fleet monitoring and alarm than navigation. We had various features like panic button or remote engine shut down. GPS wise everything was Trimble and GSM was Siemens.
    So I guess now I will "stretch my GPS legs again". Is so much easier when you work with your own system than working with something somebody else designed. But any way from the looks of things this is far easier to install than what we did.

  11. #10
    mike.nite is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Quote Originally Posted by N*Caddy View Post
    WOW!
    Check out the prices for the Kenwood antennas (~$60), I guess I am going with Alpine. J I hope you were not among the two offers on the unit.
    How about the disk J, you know a P#?
    This is going to be interesting, about 4-5 years ago during my Master I was developing mapping and data acquisition software for a GPS application. The actual hardware (and firmware) for the GPS/GSM unit was made by a small company a friend of mine is owning (smart guy, he is also an assistant in the same University I went). I did the GPS (SMS initially then CSD/GPRS) data acquisition part and the utility software used by the computer operators to build the map. It was an interesting project; the unit in the car was more designed for fleet monitoring and alarm than navigation. We had various features like panic button or remote engine shut down. GPS wise everything was Trimble and GSM was Siemens.
    So I guess now I will "stretch my GPS legs again". Is so much easier when you work with your own system than working with something somebody else designed. But any way from the looks of things this is far easier to install than what we did.

    Some additions:

    4. Steering wheel controls works perfect on a friends 98 and my 99.

    5. I also do have to enter the 1791 every time(Although I found the correct VSS wire). This kind of sucks but you get used to it.

    10. Would love to have this too - but seems to be a lot of work/parts searching.

    12. When you go to the dealer for the vin relearn you can also get your drivers name programmed (Appears on the home display). My dealer did this for free.



    As side job (next to university) I'm working for a security company which offers fleetmangement, vehicle tracking and personal tracking. After finishing my nav installation in my 99 STS I installed a web based GPS-Tracking security system. GeoFencing, Motion/Lift sensors, Ignition controls and additional in-/outputs make this unit a high class security feature. Recieving alarms and be able to track my vehicle any time and anywhere (PC or iPhone) makes me sleep much better

    Anyway - just want to tell you that your background is very interesting for me. Good luck for your Nav installation and keep us posted.

    Mike

  12. #11
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Mike, that is very interesting, we made both a Desktop (Dispatch) application and a web base application. I had a coworker making the actual web page and I made the engine behind and the database. Basically the web page was requesting to my application a certain car in a certain time interval and I was selecting the data from a MySQL database and return-it as a picture (drawing the map and placing showing the trajectory) and a string in a certain format. This was a list with all the positions the vehicle was recorded in the requested interval (plus the statistics related with each position). You were able to scroll over the picture and get the street name, speed, date/time, direction heading, and the Inputs/outputs State for each position. Also I was calculating the distance the vehicle traveled. For the Desktop base application the idea was the same only I was the one downloading the data from the units via GSM (CSD or GPRS) – so I know a lot about the AT protocol. Well for GPRS the units were programmed to periodically dump the data in the MySQL database. We end up using SMS just to program the IP (and other settings) for the units to dump the data, CSD for a quick download of the last positions (in case was needed) and GPRS (much cheaper) for continuous data dumping in the database. I also worked (just for fun) to do a small embedded application for PDAs. It was just a fun thing so I did not went to far, just read the NMEA string from the GPS antenna, and display on the screen some statistics (instant speed, distance and such).
    Now is all about the money, no more interesting projects unfortunately, all day long designing small variations of the same electrical cabinets (so I make lots of cable and wires every day). Here and there the opportunity to make some small software application for some machine on the shop floor (that is my fun time) and that’s it.

  13. #12
    mike.nite is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Quote Originally Posted by N*Caddy View Post
    Mike, that is very interesting, we made both a Desktop (Dispatch) application and a web base application. I had a coworker making the actual web page and I made the engine behind and the database. Basically the web page was requesting to my application a certain car in a certain time interval and I was selecting the data from a MySQL database and return-it as a picture (drawing the map and placing showing the trajectory) and a string in a certain format. This was a list with all the positions the vehicle was recorded in the requested interval (plus the statistics related with each position). You were able to scroll over the picture and get the street name, speed, date/time, direction heading, and the Inputs/outputs State for each position. Also I was calculating the distance the vehicle traveled. For the Desktop base application the idea was the same only I was the one downloading the data from the units via GSM (CSD or GPRS) – so I know a lot about the AT protocol. Well for GPRS the units were programmed to periodically dump the data in the MySQL database. We end up using SMS just to program the IP (and other settings) for the units to dump the data, CSD for a quick download of the last positions (in case was needed) and GPRS (much cheaper) for continuous data dumping in the database. I also worked (just for fun) to do a small embedded application for PDAs. It was just a fun thing so I did not went to far, just read the NMEA string from the GPS antenna, and display on the screen some statistics (instant speed, distance and such).
    Now is all about the money, no more interesting projects unfortunately, all day long designing small variations of the same electrical cabinets (so I make lots of cable and wires every day). Here and there the opportunity to make some small software application for some machine on the shop floor (that is my fun time) and that’s it.

    I see - the products seems to be very related (GPRS, SQL, SW, Web).
    Right now we are launching a personal tracker (size of a small cell phone) and a new Iphone App (Server-UMTS connection). It's quite a interesting topic and people are always fascinated when they watch/realise realtime tracking.

    Do you still need the User Manual?

  14. #13
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Do you still need the User Manual?
    OH YEAH!
    I am still looking for the manual. I am not sure the unit (although brand new) will come with the manual. It was not specified thus I assume is not included.
    If you have-it I can PM to you my e-mail address.

    Human psychology is pretty interesting; we had big problems with the drivers with units installed on the cars (company cars). For some reason they were not happy with that so I found pulled wires and such on a regular basis also comments like “since they put that crap in my car nothing works anymore”. It was fun though seeing the trips some of the cars were taking (not scheduled obviously). If they only knew that a small metal can placed over the antenna will hide their tracks.
    Also in my experience a cell phone next to the antenna will do the trick (initially we placed the GSM and GPS antennas one next to the other and took a while to understand this).

  15. #14
    mike.nite is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Quote Originally Posted by N*Caddy View Post
    OH YEAH!
    I am still looking for the manual. I am not sure the unit (although brand new) will come with the manual. It was not specified thus I assume is not included.
    If you have-it I can PM to you my e-mail address.

    Human psychology is pretty interesting; we had big problems with the drivers with units installed on the cars (company cars). For some reason they were not happy with that so I found pulled wires and such on a regular basis also comments like “since they put that crap in my car nothing works anymore”. It was fun though seeing the trips some of the cars were taking (not scheduled obviously). If they only knew that a small metal can placed over the antenna will hide their tracks.
    Also in my experience a cell phone next to the antenna will do the trick (initially we placed the GSM and GPS antennas one next to the other and took a while to understand this).

    We made exactly the same expirience. It is essential to inform people about the advantages (advantages for the company) before installing the units.
    But there are still alot people which are scared because they think on a "big brother" scenario instead of the benefits for the company. Anyway we also found some chopped wires . Now whe have packed the units in security boxes and the wires are wrapped in/protected. But the trick with the cell phone doesn't work on our units. My understanding is that they have a very strong signal and a kind of filter.

    Just PM me and I'll send you the User Manual (Think 2002 is the newest)

  16. #15
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    Re: Some navigation questions

    Based on the tracking information, my NAV unit cleared the customs (unfortunately it was Friday) so I am expecting to receive-it by Monday-Tuesday(ish).
    Mean while I was just reading the Navigation System Supplement (thanks Mike for the manual) and I just got to the Automatic Volume Control (AVC) function. For some reason I find this function very useful and the question is does the unit have an internal microphone to detect the cabin noise or is using the one from the voice commands (i.e. will not work without OnStart).

    About my interior lights worry (see point 3 on first post), I just realized the car has few VFD (off course) and they do need to know when the lights are on/off and what is the dimmer position. Thus yes the light status is broadcasted on the network for various modules (including the NAV unit) so J now I am sure it will work.

    The NAV disc question still remains: does anybody know what P# NAV disk I need?

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