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21K views 81 replies 13 participants last post by  N*Caddy 
#1 ·
Hello, as few of you know I am looking to convert my 97 STS with Base Delco Sound System to Denso Navigation, (absolutely positively out of the question going aftermarket).

Short story…2002 and up Denso NAV in ‘97 STS does it works (even with extreme rewiring)?

So far I know (and I did spent a lot of nights looking among the related posts on this and other similar sites) that most (actually all) retrofits were done on ’98-‘03 STS/SLS. I already know what I need (Thanks Jason!) but I have few questions (or demons witch are keeping me from having a sound sleep).
I am looking for people like Jason, eclipse5302, lownoma18, Ur7x, jmmast02, kdsevillle, low Timer and so many others with the retrofit done for some pointers before the journey. Well actually if somebody come in front with a ’96 or ’97 retrofit then all my worries are over.

So here I go:
1. You need BOSE (i.e. RIM and individual speaker amplifiers). I already have the RIM and all connectors from a 99 Eldo (thanks SLOWnSTEADY!). I also have the BOSE rear speakers (brand new) all I need at the moment are the front speakers to complete the BOSE setup. Nobody had to go with this extra step since BOSE was there.
2. I need to rewire the car (easy for me I electronic engineer). On top to the BOSE related wires I need to add the VSS wire (is F2, F4 or both?) and not sure about the backup sensing wire (somebody?). And if I need this is negative (-) or positive (+12V)?
3. Interior lamps, one of the problems, the ’97 (and up to a certain year the post ’98) use the two wires for the HU backlights. Ok they have to go since the NAV unit connects the wires to the ground. The actual light command is communicated via data bus. Does anybody know if this is also the case with ’97? Looking to my FSM I see no spot where would be required but the IPC does know the light status, does it broadcast this on the bus?
4. Steering wheel controls. It kind off pass to my ears that ’98 has some issue and the NAV unit does not recognize them. Is this true?
5. Park/Drive status. I also understand some people (with earlier iterations of post ‘98 vehicles) have this problem: the NAV unit thinks is in drive all the time. Is this true? If so is there a work around this? The PCM does knows the shifter position, is also communicated to the data bus (think to the door lock out of park, driver seat adjusts and so on). Again is there an issue here? Can anybody clarify the override code thing (why is needed if no issue)?
6. This is direct for Jason, you specified the 5-th generation has some issues with the DVD bypass code can you extend this idea pleeeeease?
7. CD Changer, ok, ok, is clear I have to ditch the 12 Disk and go with a 6 disk that communicates on the data bus and not the E+C data (removed on the NAV units).
8. Aux input, clear as crystal (nifty function too!).
9. GPS antenna no issue here all clear.
10. Voice commands, I know you need OnStar for the button, you need to wire on the small connector in the back of the NAV unit, dealer program and so on…is the last thing on my mind (if all works but this…fine by me as a start).
11. Maps disk: I have the most stupid question…dose the NAV unit runs the maps from the DVD or is just a first time setup (and eventual updates)?
12. One of the most important questions, if the unit is new (say I get a brand new one from the dealer – $$$ if I am crazy, or what ever…) do you still need the dealer to program the VIN or first time automatically learns the VIN no TechII intervention needed?
13. I kind of had this impression that you can use (limited functions) the unit with a different VIN (that would be before you go to the dealer) as long as you don’t start the car or something?
14. Aaa, and Radio antenna, not power-antenna anymore after ’98 or so (now is a module), also the unit keeps the old fashion antenna input. Am I right, can the power antenna be used (I see the control wire is still there)?
15. I also see some video input stuff, not that it would matter at the moment.

I really appreciate any answers on the above questions, I surely hate spending around $1000 to just experiment.:worship:
Sorry was long but I have so many questions….
 
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#59 ·
4. Wheel controls work just fine baring temp up, on all nav cars this was a mic button and on my moms 98 whenever you press this the temp will go up but the nav says something along the lines of "command not recognized


now this helps me understand why when i hit the Temp Down button the navi does this same thing on my 2000 seville
 
#61 ·
Well … I had high hopes on this highly specialized stereo place I got the contact information from a GM dealer. Well I called the number asked for the guy I was told and turned out to be an aftermarket stereo installer shop (for Cadillac). I actually was more knowledgeable in the field than the guy I spoke with.
Looks like I am on my own on this…
So again, anybody can tell me the location of a VCM in a 98 and newer STS, my strategy is to add one on the data bus hoping that’s what the NAV unit looks for.
 
#63 ·
wow i was wrong
it is its own seperate module

Remove left sound insulator. Refer to Closeout/Insulator Panel Replacement - Instrument Panel (I/P) Lower in Instrument Panel Gauges and Console.
Remove electrical connector from module.
Move bottom of module (3) towards brake pedal first and then slide down from bracket (2).
 
#65 ·
sure thing




info of the specific location according to ESI
PASS-Key® III Theft Deterrent Module
Left hand of the instrument panel, right of the steering column

and heres the pin out for the connector to ensure you have the right one


Pin
Wire Color
Circuit No.
Function

A
ORN
440
Fused Output - Battery

B
YEL
1836
Magnetic Rotation Detection Sensor Signal

C
BLK
1459
Magnetic Rotation Detection Ignition Key Cylinder Sensor Feed - 12 Volt Reference

D
PPL
1807
Class 2 Serial Data Line

E
PPL
1807
Class 2 Serial Data Line

F
WHT
1390
Ignition Switch Output - Off/Run/Crank

G
YEL/BLK
625
Starter Enable Control

H
BLK/WHT
451
Ground

J
WHT
1835
Magnetic Rotation Detection Sensor Signal

K
--
--
Not Used
 
#66 ·
Some how just by looking to the pin description this VCM does not seem to be it so I am starting with the RIM (the most logical unit). I just borrowed today one ’98 STS RIM from Jake to do the tests. Well I actually tested the NAV unit in one of so many Cadillac he has and connected just to the data port (same way I am testing in my car) fired right up, I got to see for the first time in my life live the NAV unit blue screen with the Cadillac crest in the background. I loaded the firmware and did not beeped (again strange...same like last time in my car) then no image – so far like in my car. Turned the ignition ON and BAM! in 1 second I had the image in the screen. Is funny how with both the original HU and the NAV unit connected to the car bus I was able to control the volume from either one, is actually amusing. But sadly so far in my car still no worky. So in the Adam Savage (Myth Busters) spirit I would say with the ’98 RIM I got 20% chances to turn the NAV unit ON (YAHOOO!), 79% chances no change, 1% chances something that I can not imagine will happen.
Let’s see…
 
#67 ·
Nope the RIM made no difference…
Back to the VCM, I kind of see what is the problem, if I turn the ignition on it does not receive all the data requested. Say now I realize that all vehicles with NAV have Pass Key III. Can anybody give me more details about this VCM?
What is the VCM function?
What is the Magnetic Rotation Detection Sensor Signal?
Where are these 1459 and 1835 circuits connected?
 
#68 ·
Still working on it…
So back to the VCM, I am unable to locate the darm thing in the car, based on the diagram J posted suppose to be on the center-left side of the dashboard (or at least that’s what I can see in the diagram).
Anybody knows exactly where the module is and how to get to it?
Also I need the full electrical diagram of the PassKeyIII circuit witch I assume incorporates the VCM as a central module. Is not like I am planing to get into the “free to me Cadillac business” I am just trying to get this darm NAV unit working.
 
#69 ·
Good news, the NAV unit works just fine!
The bad news it was not in my car, it was eyekandyboats '01 Deville, I just made him the harness (he bought a NAV unit for his car) and since I was there I just tried my unit for the second time. Same conclusion the unit works but not in my car. I got to study the eSI closer to see what I need to put in my car to get it working.
Also looking for somebody with a '99 and up Eldorado witch happens to have a Denso NAV unit for spare to do a small test for me. Chime in if you can help me on this!
 
#70 · (Edited)
I GOT IT WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :yup:
Exclusive picture with a WORKING NAV unit outside the car (in fact).



In the picture you are watching the NAV unit working on bench test.
All I need to do now is get all this stuff into the car and connect it to the data bus.
2 years…but is finally working!
Now the problem is will the RIM be compatible, do I need to change it (along with the speakers again)?

IS WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:
Not yet in the car but is close enogh. :thumbsup:

Go to minute 2:20 here
 
#71 · (Edited)
All I need to do now is get all this stuff into the car and connect it to the data bus.


Now the problem is will the RIM be compatible, do I need to change it (along with the speakers again)?
Just an educated guess regarding the RIM: I'm thinking since the're Cadillacs with Nav with or without BOSE it will probably work! So is one of those units the VCIM? It'd be cool if it was programmed to receive voice commands, but probably another nightmare in it of itself. Such programming requires the Tech II, letting it know NAV is installed (and thus the voice command subroutine is enabled). The issue would be getting someone to figure out how to tell it what car it's in etc, plus labor.

So where will you place these items?
 
#72 ·
Well I got the good news part earlier, now I tried it in the car and…
The 99’ Eldorado RIM is NOT compatible, I need to change with an ’98 and up AMP (I don’t call it RIM cause people will jump on my back). :shhh:
Now if I change the RIM…either I keep just the sound processing part of the ’98 and up AMP and disable the actual amplifier so I keep the speakers (the ones with individual amplifiers)…kind of hard to do due to the darm SUB (but not impossible).
The other solution is to change the whole audio system (again) speakers included with ’98 and up BOSE.
There is a half a** solution, don’t bother with the AMP disable part just lower the output level (a waste of amplifier) and keep the current speakers (eventually add the SUB – the yaw sensor is in the way but is not a big thing to deal with by no means). Now than I am thinking…I rather disable the amplifier to begin with.
Having the audio part fixed…with little effort I can get the steering wheel controls working too (just a matter of harness) and have the NAV unit in the car (maybe after 2-3 days of work). There is ONE compromise…I do not get the driver 1 and driver 2 settings. Also the clock will be GPS base (fine by me, is atomic watch precision any way), but not from PCM.
The driver1 and driver2 is a quite large compromise for me (although I never use driver2 settings is just something that bothers me knowing is not working).
To overcome this…well involves TechII, I need to solve some communication problems with the RSS module (U1056), the lack of side airbags (expected to be seen on the bus)…basically I would have to completely revamp the electrical system in the car…extensive work to say the least (not impossible though).
Probably I would get it going first with the Driver1/Driver2 compromise and deal with it as the time will allow me, I need to see the NAV unit in the car, unfortunately this will have to wait 2 months.
At least at this moment I know everything I need to do witch is a big achievement.
Also good news for the ’92 and up Cadillac owners I can mount the Denso NAV in ANY Cadillac (including OBDI cars, yes there is no typo, OBDI will work too, BOSE/non-BOSE regardless any way the whole system gets replaced and yes steering wheel controls can be added too as long as the steering wheel is replaced with the one with buttons). :cool2:
Now I am in a market for a ’98 and up amplifier…Jake! :bouncy:



One of the last pictures of the car w/o OEM NAV (in the back is a ’94 STS not related).
 
#74 ·
this is fantastic news!.
see if there is any more stuff you can pull out of the Deville that will work.. But its not BOSE unfortunately.
Vasi i want to talk with you about a second head unit integration into my deville ( rear seats )
 
#75 ·
Vasi. ODB 1 computer! that gets me excited. because come summer i am going to try to find a low mileage mint 1994 eldorado.... with you help i would like to put nav in it... if i can find another one for roughly 300 bucks! :)
 
#77 ·
Good thread, i'm thinking of doing this also, but i suck at electronics ( an IT guy sucking at this, i know ), so a few questions.

1.)What exact Nav HU do i need?
2.) what firmware and how do i obtain it?
3.) I have BOSE in my car, i just need to replace my driver door speaker assembly as it recently went up in smoke (literally), and get some OEM 6x9's.
4.) Thinking of going back down to 1 10" Kicker suck with Amp. Can this be added
5.)I have the connection for the disc Changer in the trunk, how will this play into such a project?

Also i need to replace my Power antenna, which i'll do soon.
 
#78 · (Edited)
#79 ·
Hey Vince,

You're in luck that I just went through this procedure! To recap, you want a nav system, and you want to add an amp to it with a subwoofer. It is simple to do but takes a little bit of work. you should be fine doing it.
Yup, currently im running two 10" Kickers in a sealed box with an Orion cobalt5001 Amp, my 6x9's are Pioneer 4 ways, still connected to the factory amps. My door speaker(s) were/are sony 3 ways (my drive door amp died and there's no speaker in their currently). So im thinking of just going back to Bose for door and 6x9's slap in a DVD/nav, add aux, and keep just one of the 10" Kickers with the amp.
 
#82 · (Edited)
Well I think I finally crack-it and I have the video to prove it.
I got the NAV HU working ON THE DATA line with my '97 STS.



Yes is correct I am actually controlling the volume of my RIM ('99 Eldorado) using the NAV unit connected to the data line. Also you see on top the DIM ('99 STS) that allow me to run the NAV unit.
The song you hear (The Cardigans - Erase and rewind) is played by the car's BOSE regular HU ('99 Eldorado). Actually is more complicated than that, is a disk in the 12 Disk CD changer controlled by the BOSE regular HU, but that's just a detail, important I am controlling the volume control of whatever sound is in the RIM (obviously works with the In-Dash CD player or the Radio). So again the NAV unit does not produce the sound (as I didn't connect the audio lines); the NAV unit is only connected to the data line and controls the RIM volume level (and other audio settings). I can also control the DSP and the balance/fade. Basically I can control every audio function the RIM knows. The NAV unit designed to work with the new AMP also knows AVC and EQ, but the buttons are disabled while connected to the RIM (as the are not supported).
The next video is the test of the steering wheel controls. I am testing the SELECT button in RADIO mode, note how the radio channels change as I am using the steering wheel button. Note you can also control the volume from steering wheel but that's in the RIM not in the HU (is kind of not easy to understand unless you understand the audio system).



And the next video demonstrates how the memory functions work too (note I am selecting from the door buttons driver 1 or driver 2 and the NAV unit responds accordingly - as seen on the botton left corner of the screen).



There are some rather big changes to be done, I need to replace the PZM with the DIM + RIM (Rear Integration Module) combo. Actually I already have the RIM in for the URPAS chimes so I may as well migrate the other inputs/outputs from PZM.
When the weather gets better I will continue with the project...
 
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