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ATS V Introduction Date

18K views 86 replies 21 participants last post by  roadpie4u 
#1 ·
It appears that if the ATS V is not introduced at the New York Auto show it will not be available to order for this year.For some reason it appears that Cadillac is postponing the V.I have some
thoughts on why the delay.
1-Sales of the CTS are well below expectations.Dealers in my area are offering discounts of more
than 5K on their websites without even haggeling.It looks like Cadillac has overpriced the CTS.
2-Because of the discounts being offered on the CTS,the ATS is also being discounted to maintain a differece between the models.I believe that Cadillac doesn't want to introduce the ATS V at this time because of the downward price pressure.
I think Cadillac made a marketing mistake by offering the Vsport drivetrain in the CTS first.It
should have offered the Vsport drivetrain in the ATS because it appeals to the younger more
sport & performance minded buyers than the CTS buyers who tend more towards luxury.
 
#3 ·
Excellent post Hoosier. Good observation of the importance of the ats-v vs the cts-v.

To be honest.. It is so damn late in the ATSs run and no V yet. 1 year delay for the V has been the trend historically.

"It appears that if the ATS V is not introduced at the New York Auto show it will not be available to order for this year."

Did you read this somewhere wannabe? You also mentioned that they delayed the ats-v? Another reason could be bmw released the m3 and GM realized they we're beat.

I was counting on seeing the atsv in ny next month. Damn. Hope it shows up.
 
#4 ·
I did't read it anywhere but I tested a CTS Vsport and priced it out at a Dealer and the manager told me that Cadillac may even scrap the idea of a ATS V.He also said if it was introduced it probably would be next year or later due to the introduction of the ATS Coupe.
I was really impressed with the CTS Vsport.The ride & performance is great,and you can really get a great deal on price.I just don't want that big of a car.The ATS size is exactly what I am looking for.I originaly tested an ATS and did not like the engine & trans combination in the V6.The Vsport driveline is exactly what I am looking for but I want it in tha ATS.

----------

I agree with much of what you say. And I think its a mistake for Cadillac to focus on a new CTS-V as its "performance" model. It made sense for the last gen CTS because then the CTS was the smallest, lightest stiffest RWD model Cadillac made. That's not the case anymore. There is nothing wrong with having a CTS equivalent of an M5 or 6 but the equivalent of an M3 has a much bigger sales and total profit potential and would be the first choice for the weekend warrior and have a higher conquest rate because more M3 buyers would be swayed by actual performance than the M5/M6 crowd who care more about the brand prestige.

Cadillac has a great opportunity with the North America DTM series coming here in 2015. DTM is a fantastic racing series and should be much more popular here than the series the CTS-Vs race in now. Plus the DTM series currently is exclusively the ATS class Audi, Mercedes and BMW. Beating them on the track is much better for sales and reputation than beating the hodgepodge of cars they race against now that virtually nobody cross shops.
Excellent points Hoosier.Although I am not particurly interested in the racing aspects of the equation,many people are and have been waiting patiently for the ATS V.It would't be so bad except that for the past year we have been seeing all kinds of articals on test siteings, and that it might be introduced in the end of 2013 ,and then maybe the spring of 2014,and then the fall of 2014,and now maybe not at all or 2015.I would really like to buy American ,but they just don't have a good grasp of certain markets.
 
#6 ·
roadpie has a lot of useful info,but the bottom line remains that if the ATS V is not introduced at the NY Auto show it is probably dead for this calender year.I am at the point that I am unwilling to wait another year,especially since there is no guarantee that it will be introduced next year.
 
#8 ·
It is far overdue. Agree that they've been sitting too long on their hands. My guess is still for New York. ATS needs a shot in the arm. Coupe will do well but they need the firepower of a V. What I DO think is happening is that Cadillac has a huge cluster now right at the 70k price point -- CTS Vsport, XTS Vsport and now presumably the ATS-V will be right around 70. V cars tend to be about 15-20 more than the top of the line for that range, so if ATS currently tops out at around 52k, then it tracks that ATS-V will come in around 70 - 72k. Now, that said, Cadillac could do a Vsport for ATS and put that at 60k -- something that isn't being served by people who want more performance for ATS and are not yet ready for the big grown up CTS.
 
#15 ·
Regardless, we CAN say one thing for certain. If GM cancels the ATS-V entirely, it's BAD news for the brand as a whole, and it's a sign they aren't going to be serious about entering Europe. If they hold back on an ATS-V, then an ATS Wagon is out of the question - and an ATS Wagon is required if they want to really be a contender in Europe.
They need a lot of things to be serious in Europe, more than what's realistic with this generation of ATS.

They need the 2.5L NA, they need more manual options, they need a powertrain under the 2.5L honestly, they need lower spec'd vehicles, they need a diesel, I could go on, and on.

The 1st generation ATS I think, will be a testing of the waters for cadillac in Europe and to show people there that they can make great cars, maybe not something Europeans would actually buy because frankly the average BMW or Mercedes sale is a cheaper, more gas frugal car with fewer features(ie easier to afford) than the based model 2.5L here, and with import taxes it just can't compete.

but

It will get people talking, that, instead of failed rebadged crap like the BLS, Cadillac makes entertaining models again.

roadpie has a lot of useful info,but the bottom line remains that if the ATS V is not introduced at the NY Auto show it is probably dead for this calender year.I am at the point that I am unwilling to wait another year,especially since there is no guarantee that it will be introduced next year.
What might strike your fancy if not the ATS-V? I'm partial to the F80 myself, but I think I'll manage to restrain myself, I'm certain there will be market adjustments to them and I'm simply not willing to pay over invoice.
 
#16 ·
They need a lot of things to be serious in Europe, more than what's realistic with this generation of ATS.

They need the 2.5L NA, they need more manual options, they need a powertrain under the 2.5L honestly, they need lower spec'd vehicles, they need a diesel, I could go on, and on.

The 1st generation ATS I think, will be a testing of the waters for cadillac in Europe and to show people there that they can make great cars, maybe not something Europeans would actually buy because frankly the average BMW or Mercedes sale is a cheaper, more gas frugal car with fewer features(ie easier to afford) than the based model 2.5L here, and with import taxes it just can't compete.

but

It will get people talking, that, instead of failed rebadged crap like the BLS, Cadillac makes entertaining models again.


What might strike your fancy if not the ATS-V? I'm partial to the F80 myself, but I think I'll manage to restrain myself, I'm certain there will be market adjustments to them and I'm simply not willing to pay over invoice.
Either the new mercedes c400 or if all else fails the bmw 335I with the mppk power upgrade.
 
#20 · (Edited)
You are probably correct on the 65K.If you spec out a cts premium fully loaded in comes out to about 66K,almost the same as a premium vsport.We are all hoping that the ats v will spec out only slightly higher than the ats premium.Probably wishful thinking.We are hoping that they will have 2 versions of the ats v like the vsport.It wouldn,t make much sense to have a vsport priced at 60K,and then price a ats v at 65K.
 
#25 ·
I know we are all speculating on the price of the ATS V but I find it hard to believe it can be more than 57K as the entry price.Check the inventory at this dealer(www.faulknermotors.com).You will find an entry Vsport selling for $55,537 and a premium Vsport listing for $71,870 selling for $66774.This is without haggeling and trying to get a better deal.If you check their entire inventory of CTS's and ATS's you will find good discounts on all models.It is obvious that Cadillac is having a problem selling the CTS and the ATS without huge discounts.If they are going to introduce the ATS V with the same drivetrain as the Vsport how can they ask for a higher list price than the Vsport when the Vsport is selling for about 55K?

Unless the ATS V is introduced with a more powerful,upgraded drivetrain I don't know how Cadillac can price it higher than the CTS Vsport.I think Cadillac has a problem sloting the ATS V because of the slow sales of the new CTS.I hope this does't cause them to delay or scrap the ATS V.All thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.
 
#24 ·
I was just at the Atlanta Auto Show. I spoke to a Cadillac rep, who stated that the ATS-V was now "official". I kind of rolled my eyes, and then she said that it would be introduced "soon". She works for Cadillac, not a dealer. No other specifics.

Also at the show were an M3 and an M4. One couldn't get in one, or the nasty looking i3 for that matter. They were advertising around $62k for the M3, and $64 for the M4. No stickers were on either of them, but they were both loaded, including carbon ceramic brakes. I expect these particular cars were in the $80-85k range. That said, I bet the ATS-V will be in the $58-60k range for the base model, as current ATSs under-cut the equivalent 3-4 series by bout $4-5k when IDENTICALLY equipped. Plus there is no heritage with the ATS-V yet, unlike the CTS and CTS-V, so it will be hard to get BMW pricing in this new sector right away. And the CTS V-Sport is $60-72k, so they have to be careful with that, too. Just my guess. I didn't really care for the M3 and M4 styling that much. The multiple air inlets, busy grill, and bulging hood and fenders came off as too busy and overdone, compared to their past efforts. We'll see about the driving. Weight has been kept to about 3500 lb, so I expect the ATS-V to aim for this, too. I always thought the claims of 3300 lb were not possible for the normal models (I wouldn't rule out a "light weight" model, though). Automobile Magazine just tested one in comparison to the E30 and E36, and while they liked it and were "impressed" they didn't exactly gush about it. It did do 0-60 in about 4 sec, but an ATS-V with the turbo 3.6 should easily match this if the weight stays down. It will be an interesting duel, for sure.
 
#27 ·
I agree with ATSwannabe. The local Caddy dealer is advertising Vsport Premiums 5k off on their website as well. Then again 10k for an options package is pretty crazy. There is a lot in the premium package to be sure, but it's not well defined as to what you are paying SO much for.
 
#32 ·
#33 ·
Yeah, 90K for an Escalade buys a good range rover, Q7 X5 or ect too, and those SUV's are not based on a 30K GMT platform.

The '90K' M3 includes a $8K carbon ceramic brake package I would point out, and a $3.5K 'full leather' interior package that isn't even real leather. Those kinds of options are for idiots.

Me personally, my 'dream' M3 sedan comes with only a few things;
The Harmon Kardon audio(I'd delete the STD nav if I could)
the adaptive suspension
The extended leather (maybe not even this, it depends on what it covers)
one of the $550 metallic finishes

As spec'd , that's a $66K ish car. Which is very reasonable, and probably right where a top-trim level ATS-V is going to slot.
 
#35 ·
M5eater said:
Yeah, 90K for an Escalade buys a good range rover, Q7 X5 or ect too, and those SUV's are not based on a 30K GMT platform. The '90K' M3 includes a $8K carbon ceramic brake package I would point out, and a $3.5K 'full leather' interior package that isn't even real leather. Those kinds of options are for idiots. Me personally, my 'dream' M3 sedan comes with only a few things; The Harmon Kardon audio(I'd delete the STD nav if I could) the adaptive suspension The extended leather (maybe not even this, it depends on what it covers) one of the $550 metallic finishes As spec'd , that's a $66K ish car. Which is very reasonable, and probably right where a top-trim level ATS-V is going to slot.
Yeah, I totally understand and it would be the same with me. It just blew me away when I saw that 90K figure. I'm not even sure why they offer the carbon brakes. They wouldn't be useful on this car.
 
#36 · (Edited)
When the press get their hands on the so equipped car and it pulls a 95' 60-0, and they drone on about 'zero fade on our test loop' it will have served it's purpose. BMW will sell you that it's a 'track capable' braking system, but the truth is that 90% of their customer base drives their $90K M3 to work every day and that's all, it's a bragging point for those owners. In the real-world though, real 'track' M3 owners go out and buy Alcon 8pot systems that cost more than a sub compact car, they don't opt for the wana-be track Ceramics from BMW. That goes with just about any serious ameature racing owner of one of these kinds of vehicles. ZR1/Z06 people switch their CC's to iron discs, so do the Porsche people, Ferrari people don't because... Ferrari, but the 458/430 lemans groups don't use CC brakes. The only vehicles that really use this technology in a professional series are the prototype cars like the Audi R15, and formula 1 and that's because they have millions of dollars at their disposal.

Ultimately that's what these are for; to Sell cars with F1 technology, I liken it to Porsche and Audi's tiptronic ZF 5speed autos from way back in the day. Back then they were garbage, but they were also a perceived giant leep in technology and drive ability to the owner.

Consumer grade CC technology is similarly best for the 'occasional' HPDE or road course owner. Someone that isn't good enough to ring out the car's full potential, someone that wants to be able to go from the street to the track without a pad/fluid change, or maybe even a tire change. In that regard they're okay. Once you start to get good though, they're hugely expensive, they modulate like crap when hot and OE systems are woefully inadequate to deal with the radiant heat these things put off.
 
#40 ·
I'm really crossing my fingers that he alpha platform adoption for the Camaro will (eventually) mean a real explosion of aftermarket for the ATS. The V owners have been fortunate in having the LS engine to piggy back off of, but there's almost nothing in regards to the rest of the car, that car is 5 years old and I'm pretty sure there isn't even someone making a short shifter. With an LF3 ATS I suspect it will be worse, unless of course it also comes in the camaro, and I'm hopingthe camaro will be similar enough to the ATS to interchange parts.

Otherwise I just sort of see an ATS-V attracting the same kind of people like a IS-F, lots of willing enthusiasts stiffled by lack of support.
 
#41 ·
The M3 configurator is now available on BMW's web site.

$62K base
About $75K with a lot of the essential electronic gizmos and manual transmission
+8K brakes, +2.9K dual clutch auto, gets to $86K (non-essentials IMO)

So if ATS-V comes fully loaded low $60s, it's probably a winner -- that is, if we ever see it.
 
#42 ·
We've known official pricing for a while, but it's nice to play with the configurator.

I would still have my way with an M3 that is between 66-70K. none of the 'packages' are enticing or essential imo. The car is already loaded with nav and a lot of standard features.

It's either headlamps for $1900. Grandma warning systems for crappy drivers for $1900. or basically some niceties like satellite radio, HUD and backup camera garbage for $4300. Four thousand three hundred dollars. None of that is legitimately worth it. None.

It is kind of crappy that, If you want you know, anything except a white exterior and black interior car, you're going to be hit for $1500.

however,

CLOTH INTERIOR
/ end thread. M3 flawless victory.
 
#43 ·
... So if ATS-V comes fully loaded low $60s, it's probably a winner -- that is, if we ever see it.
Agreed. But, at that price, it will no doubt come with the LF3 (and not, for example, a boosted LT1). Then, the flaw in that argument, however, is what the heck would power the ATS Vsport assuming there will be one?
 
#47 ·
If GM wants to keep the price of the ATS-V as low as possible while putting power over 420hp, the LT1 is much cheaper than the LF3. Cost wise, the OHV V8 is superior to the OHC TT V6. That said when you talk about total weight, center of mass, accessibility/maintenance schedules, expected warranty costs and MTTF you have to start really splitting hairs on a few of those. Add in perceived quality, NVH, and stigmas against pushrod engines, and it gets more obnoxious.
MT CONFIDENTIAL
.... "Speaking of engines we like, GM is playing with our hearts. The wonderful LS-7 V-8 of Corvette Z06 and Camaro Z/28 fame is scheduled to be put down when the limited-run Z/28 goes out, but sources at GM say that's not a done deal and the engine could survive. Where? We're hoping it's the ATS-V+"
The LS7 is a lame duck and was when it went into the Z28. If GM wants a 500hp+ N/A engine now they'd just tweak the LT1. It carries a fraction of the price and has better mpg and emissions. The LS7 had its day and it is an amazing engine, but hand building an engine with exotic materials is NOT an easy pill to swallow when most people would never know the difference anyway.
 
#45 ·
While we are all speculating on the if/when/what engine in the ATS-V, here's a teaser from the May 2014 edition of Motor Trend:

MT CONFIDENTIAL....
.... "Speaking of engines we like, GM is playing with our hearts. The wonderful LS-7 V-8 of Corvette Z06 and Camaro Z/28 fame is scheduled to be put down when the limited-run Z/28 goes out, but sources at GM say that's not a done deal and the engine could survive. Where? We're hoping it's the ATS-V+"

Doncha just love the "coulds" and "hoping" and belief that there will actually be an ATS-V+
 
#48 ·
I have been drooling at the mouth for the ATS-V to make it's debut. I want either the TT 3.6 to turn up the boost with or if they by some miracle go with the LT1 that would be golden also. My 11" CTS-V went bye bye and I'm rockin a 13' Altima 2.5 SL LOL..... BUT the money savings has been tremendous ha ha. About 1 year from now I plan to have an ATS-V in my garage.
 
#50 ·
How about both engines.An ATS Vsport with the tt3.6,and an ATS V with the LT1.The Vsport priced at about 57K,and the V priced at about 65K.The Vsport would be a good dailey driver with good acceleration and decent gas mileage.The V would be all out road racer with brutal acceleration and not worry about gas mileage.
 
#52 ·
I think people are getting out there with expectations.

1) As these ATS variants will be in Coupe and Sedan form, the coupes WILL go against Camaro as 2+2. Sure they won't be in the same class or segment - but it's food for thought - as GM is going to price them accordingly... as the ATS has a better interior and more toys than the Camaro, we should expect a realistically similar (or worse!) sliding price scale.

2) A Camaro SS carries a $10,000 premium over the Camaro V6 - and the V6 in the ATS is the same as the SS. Food for thought.

3) A Camaro ZL1, which is a counter to the GT500, starts at $55,000 - a $20,000 premium over the N/A V8. Anyone expecting a 470hp ATS to cost "only a few grand more" than a ZL1 may be a little off base. Food for thought.

4) The "all out road racer" Camaro Z28 starts at $72,000. $17,000 more than the ZL1 with less horsepower. $38,000 more than the Camaro SS. $48,000 more than a Camaro V6 - the same as an ATS V6. Food for thought.

5) An ATS V6 Starts at $42,000. If we say the "ATS V6" is sorta like the "ATS SS" then a TTV6 ATS would start at $62,000. And the "ATS-V+ All out road racer" with an LT1 would start at $80,000. I'd wager those were both low-ball numbers but more in-line. With Carbon Ceramic brakes and a magnetic suspension that might actually be realistic.

6) In a few years an ATS Coupe and Camaro Coupe will be on the same line but must be differentiated in terms of pricing, options, and content. GM wants to make sure the two can target different customers and don't cannibalize too many of the other one's sales.
 
#56 · (Edited)
M5eater said:
If you put an LF3 and an LT1 in the same car, you'd struggle to be able to calculate a measurable difference. Actually the LF3 would probably be the faster car to 60(more available torque in the lower band). There has to be a larger performance delta than 30hp and 20ft/lb of torque. No reasonable or sane person is going to pick the $10K more expensive LT1 simply because it has 2 extra cylinders. That's not how the world works.
Straight line acceleration means little on a challenging track. Look at the recent tests of the Z /28, turbo Porsche and GTR on a track. The V2 was designed as a road racer, not a drag queen. I would imagine that a proper ATS-V would be the same type of animal. Anyone desiring a drag queen could do it cheaper. That is not Cadillac's market. I'll leave it to the engineers to determine if a stressed V6 is better than an optimized n /a V8, with equal or lesser weight and lower center of gravity, for road racing. There are a lot of enthusiasts that don't want to drive an expensive high performance car that sounds like a bumblebee, me included.
 
#64 ·
Anybody know when Cadillac's press day is at NYIAS? The general show opens on Friday and Thursday is the charity day, making Tuesday and Weds the press introduction days. Chevy has already teased that they have 3 things to unveil. I'd be SHOCKED if Cadillac skips ATS-V intro at this show --- I'd be even more shocked if they skip it and intro the CTS-V (hell, there are wayyyy more spy photos of the CTS-V out testing with M5s and the Z06, so who knows what exactly is going on with the ATS-V?!?!)
 
#67 ·
Where in the world is the ATS V-Sport and/or ATS V? I get sick and tired of automakers delaying the sports variants by two or more years. I can't even begin to rationalize why they think this is a good strategy...what is the upside of purchasing a V model the third (or FOURTH) model year in? Why do I want to be driving an ATS-V for one year when a NEW ATS platform is announced?
 
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