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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6 in Cadillac V-Series Forums; Originally Posted by Koooop Many of the models are to expensive to keep on the road. Wait until the warranty ...
  1. #76
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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by Koooop View Post
    Many of the models are to expensive to keep on the road. Wait until the warranty is out on the current models and the transmissions and turbos start to fail, the screams will be heard around the world.
    That's true for most import luxury vehicles.

    There isn't exactly an abudance of B5/B6's, or older W203's on the road either.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by Koooop View Post
    Many of the models are to expensive to keep on the road. Wait until the warranty is out on the current models and the transmissions and turbos start to fail, the screams will be heard around the world.
    Any car would have to be phenomenal to cost $60, 70, or 80+k and not be economically viable to fix after a few years.

    Hard to believe a BMW is THAT phenomenal.

    Has to be a koolaid thing.
    '05 CTS-V, Maggie, Kooks, Hotchkis, Ground Control, Corsa, B&M, DSS/Hendrix, Full 3M Clear Bra, Autovation, V Headrests, CTS Console, STS-V 55w Fogs, Black Vette FRCs, Specter Werkes, Katech LS9 Clutch, SS Brake Lines, Heavymetals U-Turn Fuel Line Eliminator, Momo Combat Evo Shift Knob, Wldwhl Clear Sidemarkers, Linea Corse LC855 Wheels or OEM wheels w/'06-'07 Center Caps, plus a couple more. 472 RWHP/411 RWTQ (Mustang Dyno).

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    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    Any car would have to be phenomenal to cost $60, 70, or 80+k and not be economically viable to fix after a few years.

    Hard to believe a BMW is THAT phenomenal.

    Has to be a koolaid thing.
    In the US, a BMW is out of warranty at 50,000 miles.
    In Europe, its often out of warranty at 12,000 miles - before the first filter replacement.

    Lets assume all cars have the same reliability. Assuming over the first 5 years or 60,000 miles both cars will require $1400 in regular maintenance (filters, oil, belts, etc), and assuming both will cost $1000 in warranty repairs at an average of $200/year (which doesn't work right because of infant mortality failures but hey, humor me). The ATS and 3 Series both sell for $45k.

    So after the sale of the vehicle in the US:
    The ATS costs GM $2400 over the next 5 years as maintenance is included.
    The 3 costs BMW $2400 over the next 5 years as maintenance is included.

    After the sale of the vehicle in Europe:
    The ATS isn't sold.
    The 3 costs BMW $500 over the next 2 years as maintenance is included


    In 2013 BMW sold 240,000 3 series - 90,000 were in the US alone.
    So on average globally (all things being equal), BMW will spend just over $1,200 per car after sale.

    In 2014 Cadillac might sell 36,000 ATSs - all in the US.
    So on average, GM will spend $2,400 per car after sale.

    It costs a cool billion to develop a new platform. Lets say we use it for 7 years. At a quarter million cars per year, that means BMW adds $600 to the cost of every 3 series in development & engineering costs. At the same time, it looks like cadillac will spend $4,000 per car at the current sales rate.

    Average cost of development, warranty, and factory maintenance on every 3 - $1800.
    Average cost of development, warranty, and factory maintenance on every ATS - $6400.

    Knowing that, its impressive anyone in that segment can compete with the 3 series.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    The reality isn't as grim as you propose. Your analysis is interesting but I don't feel it takes into account a lot of details; such as the fact that GM is so much bigger than BMW it can do most things cheaper than BMW simply by virtue of doing things in greater volume and having more established supplier chains.

    your analysis doesn't take into account that built in costs are also absorbed through similar models and having a modular platform.

    The ATS isn't the only alpha based car, it's also used with the CTS, and the camaro, which are big sellers. The Camaro alone is a regular 80K unit car.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    The reality isn't as grim as you propose. Your analysis is interesting but I don't feel it takes into account a lot of details;
    Very true - but it shows the theoretical 'worst case' predicament that the ATS finds itself, and it also helps to explain some of GM's decisions in the ATS development (certain cost cutting measures seemingly for no reason). Looking at the 2nd gen CTS, at its best it only moved 55,000 units - and at the time BMW was selling twice that in the 3 series in the US alone.

    Look how hard it was for the Japanese to compete against American sports cars (Camaro, Firebird, Mustang, Corvette) in North America in the 90s. The 300ZX, 3000GT, Supra... all were good cars in their own right, but lacked the volume to remain competitive against the high-volume Americans. In a way, we're seeing Cadillac try against BMW something very similar. It's very hard to beat someone at a game they've been dominating for decades.

    That said, how the development budget breaks down and what money goes where (from what I've heard) has been a long going process within GM's bean counters on how to maximize profits and make the books work for certain configurations. Obviously the Camaro team doesn't want to have to foot the bill for ANY of the alpha platform development, and I've heard that GM planned it that way in order to minimize the burden on the forthcoming 6th gen in order to keep it competitive and profitable even as its market and sales shrinks. Is that true? Dunno. Obviously the Camaro will have the budgets for its own unique parts, but the large majority of parts "under the skin" will be ATS parts and Camaro won't have the bear that burden. GM doesn't want to get into the same situation as they did with the 4th gen Fbody where the lions share of development dollars for outerbody went to the Firebird as the Camaro was hung out to dry.

    Regardless, as we (and GM) also don't know how many units the new Camaro will really sell, I don't want to make assumptions - and I leave the ATS and CTS to bear the cost of developing Alpha on their own. Combined we could safely guess GM justified alpha with a combined sales volume similar to the 2nd gen CTS (60k units). Even at that point though, it doesn't change my "worst case" numbers all THAT much, especially as CTS rides on "alpha plus" which required more engineering be poured into it.

    Anyway, BMW and GM are both massive - but in terms of supply chain volumes and discounts its hard to say exactly who gets off better and where. Knowing GM hasn't done the traditional "pick the cheapest supplier" with components for alpha, they may not be saving themselves any money over BMW despite being bigger - but I think that's paid off because of things like the ATS and CTS steering racks/feel - despite being electric they are quite good. Not flawless of course, but quite good.

    I can tell you with the ATS and CTS that GM has gone away from the traditional weatherpack/metripack hardware and is using superior electrical harness components - having poked around a bit they have stepped up quality in that regard atleast. Will that make any difference? Hard to say.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Very true - but it shows the theoretical 'worst case' predicament that the ATS finds itself, and it also helps to explain some of GM's decisions in the ATS development (certain cost cutting measures seemingly for no reason).
    maybe, but we should remember that, these are very high profit margin vehicles. I mean, my $45K ATS shares an engine with a $27K Malibu.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    maybe, but we should remember that, these are very high profit margin vehicles. I mean, my $45K ATS shares an engine with a $27K Malibu.
    I wonder exactly how high the margins really are. Compared to the midsize sedan market (which is the slimmest margin of any car segment) they're massive. I *hope* GM makes good money on every alpha sold.

    Speaking of engines, I know GM pays for the V8 development programs by writing it off as a truck engine and then "adapting it to the corvette". I'd love to know how GM distributes the development costs of its small engines. The HCCI development programs have been doing inside GM for well over a decade now and we are still several years out. Considering the HCCI concepts are all under 2 liters, that's a long development cycle and will carry a pretty penny in costs. GM better come out with some seriously nice smaller cars one of these days...

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    GM better come out with some seriously nice smaller cars one of these days...
    Cruze, Sonic and Spark are doing pretty good.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    At one point in my life I had a particular BMUU M car, while I had no loan on the car I did send a check to my mechanic each month. Was it worth it? At the time it was. Back then the M car was a a simple machine, the current cars are nightmare. My associate here at had recently had a 135i, a transmission, a new convertible top, reprogram of the PCM (among other things) was done in under 20,000 miles. That DCT was a hoot to drive but I have to wonder what that costs to replace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er
    Does it seem to everyone else like there are no -- absolutely NO -- BMWs on the road over a certain age, like 8-9 years or so? I mean it's like they evaporate off the roads into complete mechanical disarray or something.
    Not here. I see E36s and E46s everyday. The E46 dates back to 1999, that's 15 years.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    The current Camaro is the Zeta platform (G8, SS, Holden)
    next gen Camaro will be Alpha.

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by roadpie4u View Post

    Speaking of engines, I know GM pays for the V8 development programs by writing it off as a truck engine and then "adapting it to the corvette". I'd love to know how GM distributes the development costs of its small engines.
    GM holds all I.P. rights for everything they then license it and sell it to the other brands, Them owning and being in control of all the brands globally gives them the power to dictate what goes where globally and who pays them the licensing fee's to use whatever their using that includes engines, vehicle platforms, ect.
    So that goes in to sales projections and what goes where figured in to the cost of development.
    That is the way it was explained to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadpie4u
    I know GM pays for the V8 development programs by writing it off as a truck engine and then "adapting it to the corvette".
    You calling my LS2 a truck motor?

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    Re: Motor Trend says ATS-V to get 425 hp TTV6

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSCHICK View Post
    GM holds all I.P. rights for everything they then license it and sell it to the other brands
    Yes but they have to have a business case for developing it - aka "We'll sell a bajillion V8 engines to Chevrolet and GMC brands for trucks, and a few thousand for a Corvette or something". If GM Powertrain didn't have "customers" for a new engine that'd pay for it, they wouldn't make a new engine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Koooop View Post
    You calling my LS2 a truck motor?
    Technically? Yes. It was intended for trucks first - but got some tweaks, a new cam, and slapped into a car. Freaking brilliant too - truck sales volume is how GM has kept the price of the Corvette down while other companies making V8s have to charge such an outrageous premium.

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    It's confirmed, all you cadillacowners that have an LS2 have a truck motor!

    ----------

    I'm heading to Fontana today, I will be sure to let the Corvette guys know that all those new Corvettes we will be flogging have a truck motor in them.

    LOL

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