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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, 2014 naias in Cadillac V-Series Forums; Originally Posted by ATSwannabe ... I think I will turn my search for a new vehicle to a new Mercedes ...
  1. #31
    rand49er's Avatar
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Quote Originally Posted by ATSwannabe View Post
    ... I think I will turn my search for a new vehicle to a new Mercedes C class with the turbocharged V6 ...
    Sounds like your "search" is over.
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  2. #32
    bowtie_30 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 2014 naias

    I agree! I've been doing baby steps into a lot of power. I did the transition into an ATS 2.0T to get used to rear wheel drive and a 6 speed manual while keeping the same power that my 09 Cobalt SS had. I was hoping they would unveil it yesterday for sale in the summer so by the time I am ready to get it the price won't be ridiculous and I can find the one I want. If they still don't have it by next year when I'm ready to get a new car I might be looking at a new BMW M3, which is a shame because I love GM and have only owned GM vehicles and the V vehicles have always been really great...

  3. #33
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Quote Originally Posted by ETHANOREO View Post
    I saw a tweet yesterday during the coupe launch that the coupe and a new escalade are the only two new cars for Caddy in 2014.
    well that's not right since the ELR is also launching this year (this month actually)
    and if there's not a CTS-V and ATS-V in showrooms by the end of the year I would be very surprised
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  4. #34
    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Quote Originally Posted by RippyPartsDept View Post
    well that's not right since the ELR is also launching this year (this month actually)
    and if there's not a CTS-V and ATS-V in showrooms by the end of the year I would be very surprised
    I went to my dealer and spent some time in the ELR. Neat car. Halo vehicle. Not for me though.
    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    Well, I still think that Cadillac wants to test a real M3/4 before committing to the final ATS-V configuration. The n/a LT1 is a good choice because of weight, lower center of gravity, simplicity and better fuel economy advantages than the TTV6. Need to get away from following the Germans.
    If GM wants the ATS-V to be available for the 2015 model year, they can't change the powertrain configuration this late in the game as there isn't enough time to set up the supply lines, tooling, training, documentation, etc -- but with MRC and all of the tweaks that can be made in the electronics now, they can certainly change the way the car "feels" and responds.
    Quote Originally Posted by bungee91 View Post
    So why NY and not Chicago?..
    While Chicago may claim "largest" in terms of square footage, NYC takes the cake with largest attendance and LA claims the most influence (as its technically at the "start" of the season before the other shows). Sadly as NY and Chicago are less than a month apart, Chicago can get the proverbial "short end of the stick" with reveals. I'd love to see a new Cadillac there, but I'm not expecting something big.

    ...


    Personally, if GM really wants to take Cadillac global we need to see global reveals at Shangai, Tokyo, and Geneva as well as in the States. As Cadillac may very well end up selling more ATS's in China than the USA, it only makes sense.

    GM has a lot of variables to play, and has to consider what cars they want on what magazine/blog/media covers - you don't want to put two "centerfold" models in the same show and have one steal thunder from another. With GM having to consider Cadillac and Chevrolet's reveal schedules very carefully, it makes sense they revealed the Z06 and the ATS Coupe in Detroit. The ATS Coupe isn't "centerfold" while the Z06 is. ATS-V and CTS-V are both "centerfold" cars, as is the next Camaro. Further, the Camaro should only be revealed in Detroit, while Cadillac can reveal cars at LA and NYC.

  5. #35
    VCONVERT is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Well, Motor Trend is reporting that the ATS-V will have the 3.6 litre twin turbo with 425 horsepower with the potential of an ATS-V+ with a V8 in 2017. If true, count me out. I was disappointed with the reveal of the ATS coupe which, to me, is not nearly as edgy or style forward as the CTS coupe. I think Cadillac is losing their Art and Science cutting edge design approach for more of a mainstream "follow-the-crowd, look like all of the others" philosophy. I was torn between the ATS-V and the Corvette but if it's only 425 horsepower they've lost me as a buyer and I'll go with Corvette. Or perhaps I'll look at a CTS-V coupe. Cadillac needs to look back at why they lost market share in the 70's; they became complacent and didn't feel compelled to lead but content to follow. History repeating itself.
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    Re: 2014 naias

    425hp will not cut it. Needs over 450hp
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    The motor trend article is actually a re-write of an article they published back in February of 2013 - they didn't have anything to go on then and don't now.

    GM knows BMW and Merc are legitimately pushing 450-500 horsepower in this segment now, and they know BMW underrates their engines - they know even 450hp is risky, AND they know they need to work on transmission performance.

    I would seriously prefer GM put the Vette's 7speed into all "-V" series products from here out - but it's an expensive transmission and GM still has too many bean counters in the company for my liking.


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  8. #38
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    NYIAS in April? It seems like the perfect venue, but then again, so was Detroit.
    Jud

  9. #39
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    Re: 2014 naias

    The motor trend article is actually a re-write of an article they published back in February of 2013 - they didn't have anything to go on then and don't now.

    GM knows BMW and Merc are legitimately pushing 450-500 horsepower in this segment now, and they know BMW underrates their engines - they know even 450hp is risky, AND they know they need to work on transmission performance.

    I would seriously prefer GM put the Vette's 7speed into all "-V" series products from here out - but it's an expensive transmission and GM still has too many bean counters in the company for my liking.
    I will say, I would be shocked if they didn't use the 3160 that they've already planted in the 2.0t for a V, the only problem I can see with it's use in a V is that Tremec rates the trans for 500nm, which is simply not nearly enough for an LF3 or LT1.

    If they don't, that's a few cool million in homologation they did for single digits percentages of their product line. That's my main reason for thinking they're going to use it in a V.

    What I will say, is that they don't necessarily need the 6070, remember, the only other stick in town for compact super sedans anymore is BMW, and they've committed to 6 forward gears only. Cadillac could easily stick with a TR6060 and stay relevant, although I see that as an even more unlikely eventuality-- the 6060 is 4" longer, 18lbs heavier, and much less 'compact' than the 3160.

    Here's an unpleasant thought- no manual ATS-V at all?

    NYIAS in April? It seems like the perfect venue, but then again, so was Detroit.
    GM knows BMW and Merc are legitimately pushing 450-500 horsepower in this segment now, and they know BMW underrates their engines - they know even 450hp is risky, AND they know they need to work on transmission performance.
    Valid points, I'm sort of imagining at this point they purposefully delayed any launch to learn what BMW had up their sleeves. BMW's shown their cards, now it's Cadillac's turn.

  10. #40
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    NYIAS in April? It seems like the perfect venue, but then again, so was Detroit.
    After talking with plenty of folks about the ATS Coupe and ATS-V reveals, we all decided of the 3 American shows that it made the most sense to reveal the ATS Coupe in Detroit, the ATS-V Sedan in NY, and the ATS-V Coupe in LA, in that order.

    New York draws more attention than Detroit and has a larger European presence - something that Cadillac's new marketing direction (supposedly) wants to truly challenge. If you reveal a brand new Cadillac that is the direct rival to a brand new BMW and draw more crowds and booth traffic than their car does, the automotive journalists and bloggers will notice and comment about that - and that will cause even MORE people to look at the Cadillac seriously. It's a risky move, but if GM did it and succeeded...

    That and LA tends to be more about glamour and style, which the ATS-V Coupe would be the crown for. Then following that in Detroit and NY 2015 you show off the CTS variants. Cadillac NEEDS a reveal at every LA, Detroit, and NY show from now on in order to keep the momentum going. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    the only problem I can see with it's use in a V is that Tremec rates the trans for 500nm, which is simply not nearly enough for an LF3 or LT1.
    While the T56 (great example, in my mind) had a variation with hardened components for the Viper application, the 3160 supporting supporting THAT much power is very unlikely and would require significant torque management to keep it together on hard launches. Could it be done, knowing there is continued work to refine it? It's possible...
    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    If they don't, that's a few cool million in homologation they did for single digits percentages of their product line. That's my main reason for thinking they're going to use it in a V.
    A valid point - but the counter is how much of the work was paid for by Tremec and how much was GM. Tremec even lists the transmission as having light truck applications... Additionally, don't forget this makes the 3160 not just the manual transmission for the ATS - but theoretically every vehicle that GM puts on alpha with less than 400hp, which could end up as a reasonable volume by 2020.
    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    Here's an unpleasant thought- no manual ATS-V at all?
    If you think about it, manual transmissions are slower than sequential or even really good automatics - the main reason to offer them is for "bragging rights" in the enthusiast and magazine community. Think of how much negative press Porsche got on the new GT3 - and now there is significant talk that they'll backpedal and offer a manual due to that backlash.

    GM would suffer greatly at the hands of the media if they canned a manual transmission on ANY V series (heck, the lack of a "manual transmission V Wagon" will probably have Jalopnik writing petition letters to the white house to force them to make them). That said, think about the positive press, the water cooler talk, etc. that'd stem from offering a TR6070 in an ATS versus the BMW 3 series (engine options aside, lets just talk transmission) "While the BMW ONLY offers 6 gears, the Cadillac offers 7 with rev-matching...". Not to mention that super tall 7th gear will help with fuel economy, which GM is concerned about.

    Lastly, on a premium vehicle like this (we're talking about a $60,000 car here), anyone who wants one with a manual is likely 100% willing and would even prefer to pay a few hundred bucks more for the 7-speed with rev matching over a plain-jane 6-speed. GM knows they can just pass that cost onto the buyers, and the positive press would just be icing on the cake.
    JFJr and M5eater like this.

  11. #41
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    ... they purposefully delayed any launch to learn what BMW had up their sleeves. BMW's shown their cards, now it's Cadillac's turn.
    That's been my thought all along.


    I like the thinking with the reveal sequence: ATS Coupe (Detroit), ATS-V Sedan (New York), and ATS-V Coupe (Los Angeles).

    And no manual ATS-V is indeed an unpleasant thought.
    '05 CTS-V, Maggie, Kooks, Hotchkis, Ground Control, Corsa, B&M, DSS/Hendrix, Full 3M Clear Bra, Autovation, V Headrests, CTS Console, STS-V 55w Fogs, Black Vette FRCs, Specter Werkes, Katech LS9 Clutch, SS Brake Lines, Heavymetals U-Turn Fuel Line Eliminator, Momo Combat Evo Shift Knob, Wldwhl Clear Sidemarkers, Linea Corse LC855 Wheels or OEM wheels w/'06-'07 Center Caps, plus a couple more. 472 RWHP/411 RWTQ (Mustang Dyno).

  12. #42
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    Re: 2014 naias

    If you think about it, manual transmissions are slower than sequential or even really good automatics - the main reason to offer them is for "bragging rights" in the enthusiast and magazine community. Think of how much negative press Porsche got on the new GT3 - and now there is significant talk that they'll backpedal and offer a manual due to that backlash.

    GM would suffer greatly at the hands of the media if they canned a manual transmission on ANY V series (heck, the lack of a "manual transmission V Wagon" will probably have Jalopnik writing petition letters to the white house to force them to make them). That said, think about the positive press, the water cooler talk, etc. that'd stem from offering a TR6070 in an ATS versus the BMW 3 series (engine options aside, lets just talk transmission) "While the BMW ONLY offers 6 gears, the Cadillac offers 7 with rev-matching...". Not to mention that super tall 7th gear will help with fuel economy, which GM is concerned about.

    Lastly, on a premium vehicle like this (we're talking about a $60,000 car here), anyone who wants one with a manual is likely 100% willing and would even prefer to pay a few hundred bucks more for the 7-speed with rev matching over a plain-jane 6-speed. GM knows they can just pass that cost onto the buyers, and the positive press would just be icing on the cake.
    I agree with all of your points. I just don't see a(previously used in GM vehicles) drop in solution ready for an ATS with 400+Ft/lbs. I won't pretend to know if a 6060 can/would fit inside an ATS alpha frame but I'd like to think that, given the ATS's intended posistion with the CTS and Camaro that it's possible. 4inches is a lot of room, and that's not counting the surrounding increased package size of a 6060 is the real challenge.

    I had forgotten about the 3160's planned usage in the camaro, and that seems to make perfect sense from the point that (presumably) an LTG/LFX would make it's way into the alpha camaro . The mustang is going 4 cylinder after all.

    the Jalop reference had me laughing pretty hard btw haha.

  13. #43
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    I agree with all of your points. I just don't see a(previously used in GM vehicles) drop in solution ready for an ATS with 400+Ft/lbs. I won't pretend to know if a 6060 can/would fit inside an ATS alpha frame but I'd like to think that, given the ATS's intended posistion with the CTS and Camaro that it's possible. 4inches is a lot of room, and that's not counting the surrounding increased package size of a 6060 is the real challenge.
    If you look at the image below you can see there's a little bit of space around the transmission case and PLENTY for a bellhousing (as alpha was engineered for a "V" engine):
    http://media.caranddriver.com/images...s-1280x782.jpg
    The TR3160 mounts the shifter behind the transmission over the tail like the CTS-V. I cant say exactly how far back, but by the sheetmetal it looks like a rubber boot has some mounting points *just* above the flange on the driveshaft.

    So the flange of the TR3160 is 27.8" back.

    And the TR6060?
    2010 Camaro TR6060 dimensions.JPG
    So in this case (swag on dimensions, I found it on the internet) while the flange on the TR6060 is indeed farther back, but by the image of the underside of the ATS, that isn't a problem - moving the driveshaft flange 4" back wouldn't even interfere with the existing driveshaft crossbrace, and there's nothing preventing the shifter assembly from moving forward 4" from where it sits on the TR6060.

    I looked at all of this when I got my ATS and tried to piece it together - it *looks* like there's just enough room for the TR6060 under there - and if the TR6060 fits, the TR6070 fits as it is all but identical in exterior dimensions. Obviously there are plenty of other logistical issues - but I can't see anything stopping GM from slapping either the TR6060 or TR6070 in there.
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  14. #44
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    Re: 2014 naias

    you need to stop talking. this thing is still months away from debut, and my fuzzy root thing is tingling.

  15. #45
    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 2014 naias

    Don't worry. Of all the way GM can make the "faster" ATS better, we can still all sigh a depressing sigh that most likely the bean counters will claim to shoot for 10, budget it for 8, and be amazed when they get to a solid 9... when in reality we all know an "11" is doable.



    I said I'd trade in my 98 Grand Prix when I could get 270+hp (0-60 in under 7 seconds), a manual trans, heads up display, a posi, and atleast 19/29mpg. I finally got the chance to buy it in 2012 and I'm glad I did - but like a spoiled nine year old my list just keeps getting bigger.

    ...Now I want to add in Non-Black Recaro seats, the LCD Cluster from the XTS/CTS, a 7speed manual, and a delete for the stupid CD player I never use. I still want the mpg and the heads up display and posi is a must. As a bonus a wagon so I can haul more crap around.

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