New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs
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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs in Cadillac V-Series Forums; If the ATS-V does indeed have the M3 in its sights, then it'll need more than 420 hp to haul ...
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    rand49er's Avatar
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    New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    If the ATS-V does indeed have the M3 in its sights, then it'll need more than 420 hp to haul its 3,400-3,600 lbs around.

    https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressclub/p/us/pressDetail.html?title=bmw-m3-m4-technology-days&outputChannelId=9&id=T0146764EN_US&left_menu_ item=node__4265#
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    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    The only thing that'll really tell the story is what the "well north of 369 lb-ft of torque" means - it could be only 380 lb-ft. Or it could be 420.

    With 430 lb-ft at it's disposal in the CTS Vsport, a little extra weight in the ATS-V's belt won't hurt it too badly depending on how much BMW packs in. That said, BMW's extensive use of Carbon Fiber is impressive - we'll have to see how much weight savings GM pours onto the ATS-V, but I can't see it coming in anywhere near BMW's claimed "3300 lb" (which I doubt slightly, I think that's likely exaggerated to be lower than it really is on a theoretical 'M3 CSL' sort of car).

    Also with the use of carbon fiber we have to see where the final MSRP sits. We'll have more in a few months once production models are revealed.

    Bad news: The BMW M3 is coming out guns blazing.

    Good news: If GM is trying to take BMW blow-for-blow, the ATS-V is going to be pretty amazing.

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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    High torque at higher RPMs is what's needed because you can stay in a lower gear longer.

    If the BMW I6 revs up to 8k and develops decent torque, the LF3 will have to be dialed up with more boost.
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    The other kicker, that supra guys will all say, is you make big power up top or you make midrange with relation to rpm and boost. Granted, this is BMW - so I have no doubt their system will do just fine. Again, how much torque that thing puts out is going to be a crux to the ATS-V. And while spinning the LF3 harder with more boost is always an option, GM has to keep the turbos the same as there is one on each bank - BMW has a lot more wiggle room as they share a common header and can have one spin lower down and one much higher up for big power....

    I'm curious what Audi comes back with next.

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    Guy.Seminerio is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Don't forget how BMW typically underrates the power of their cars. I believe ats needs to have near 500hp to compete with m3's "430" hp.
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    Don't forget how BMW typically underrates the power of their cars. I believe ats needs to have near 500hp to compete with m3's "430" hp.
    Good point. GM might need less power depending on gearing as well - if they could somehow shoe-horn the 7 speed from the 'Vette into the ATS-V, that might help. On the other side of the same coin, I don't want GM to gear it to oblivion for maximum acceleration - 23mpg hwy would be obnoxious when a C7 is rated pretty much the same as my 2L ATS...

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    mikesul is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by roadpie4u View Post
    The other kicker, that supra guys will all say, is you make big power up top or you make midrange with relation to rpm and boost. Granted, this is BMW - so I have no doubt their system will do just fine. Again, how much torque that thing puts out is going to be a crux to the ATS-V. And while spinning the LF3 harder with more boost is always an option, GM has to keep the turbos the same as there is one on each bank - BMW has a lot more wiggle room as they share a common header and can have one spin lower down and one much higher up for big power....

    I'm curious what Audi comes back with next.
    The same setup the last gen RX7 used with it's sequential turbos.

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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    A couple of things about the M3/M4. First, I really doubt their quoted 3300 lb. There are already disclaimers that the US version will weigh more due to additional equipment required by our market (A/C, stereo, power everything?). With fluids (often eliminated in European specs), I bet it will be in the 3500 lb range. If it really has tons of carbon fiber to significantly reduce weight, then pricing should be a lot higher than it's been, too. As far as the torque, the 3.6 will easily have more torque than the 3.0 of the BMW; even when turbocharged, displacement counts for torque. Even if the BMW really makes more than 400 of torque, the ATS-V motor should easily surpass that, and especially down low in the rev range. I would also be surprised if the V motor isn't significantly more potent than the V-Sport motor, too. The BMW will be a fine car for sure, but I have every expectation that the ATS-V will be at least it's equal, and I would guess it will also be cheaper by at least the $5000 margin that the ATS and CTS enjoy over their equivalent BMW models. All speculation, of course.

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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by marktanner View Post
    A couple of things about the M3/M4. First, I really doubt their quoted 3300 lb. There are already disclaimers that the US version will weigh more due to additional equipment required by our market (A/C, stereo, power everything?). With fluids (often eliminated in European specs), I bet it will be in the 3500 lb range. If it really has tons of carbon fiber to significantly reduce weight, then pricing should be a lot higher than it's been, too. As far as the torque, the 3.6 will easily have more torque than the 3.0 of the BMW; even when turbocharged, displacement counts for torque. Even if the BMW really makes more than 400 of torque, the ATS-V motor should easily surpass that, and especially down low in the rev range. I would also be surprised if the V motor isn't significantly more potent than the V-Sport motor, too. The BMW will be a fine car for sure, but I have every expectation that the ATS-V will be at least it's equal, and I would guess it will also be cheaper by at least the $5000 margin that the ATS and CTS enjoy over their equivalent BMW models. All speculation, of course.
    I've also heard that the weight BMW quotes is a dry weight, so that "3,300 lbs" is likely to grow somewhat.

    As far as the ATS-V having more torque than the BMW, it's been suggested numerous times in these threads that many of us are getting resigned to it having the LF3 motor which is rated at less power than the Bimmer, like it or not. Unless that motor is seriously dialed up to, say, 450 hp, it may not surpass the M3/M4 in performance especially if BMW is understating their motor's power output. Sure, it's only one parameter with handling and ride plus others to be considered as well, but with all the car rag bias on the Bimmer's side, the ATS-V needs to be clearly better in all respects ... not just on par with it, and heaven forbid the car rags allow any latitude for an ATS-V that costs $5-10k less. They'll dwell on everything else.
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Couldn't have said it any better.

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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Here's a possible C7 ZR1 motor: http://www.corvetteonline.com/news/breaking-news-is-this-the-c7-zr1s-supercharged-powerplant/

    S
    peculation is that it may also be the motor for the new CTS-V, as well. If the V series of vehicles are to be the hottest versions of a given model (ATS, CTS, etc) and the Vsport is to be one step down in performance, then what this means (to me, at least) is that there's room for the ATS-V to have something more than the LF3 and not compete with the big dog, the CTS-V.

    Oh, heck ... I guess I'm just stretching things trying to rationalize why GM should use something beyond the LF3 for the ATS-V. Go on, GM ... surprise me with 500 hp.
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    I'm sure there's room in the LF3 setup for more power than the V-sport's 420hp version for an ATS-V.

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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    speculation is that it may also be the motor for the new CTS-V, as well.
    Boost is the name of the game for the CTS-V - that isn't going to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    Oh, heck ... I guess I'm just stretching things trying to rationalize why GM should use something beyond the LF3 for the ATS-V. Go on, GM ... surprise me with 500 hp.
    500hp? You have low expectations sir! A supercharged LT1, in massed produced trim, is capable of 600hp. In hand built boutique trim? Even more.

    And GM has also prototyped a twin turbo LT1, which is capable of a lot more than that. A Supercharged LT1? That might not be top dog in the Vette if GM wants to push the ZR1 even higher in price and prestige - and I think they do...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner View Post
    I'm sure there's room in the LF3 setup for more power than the V-sport's 420hp version for an ATS-V.
    From what I've heard, there's a good deal of headroom provided some tweaks to the assembled engine without changing the currently specified longblock. Nowhere NEAR the percentage gains Pfadt got with the LTG (270hp to like 540hp) but still up there. The problem with pushing it harder does mean there's a "sweet spot" of reliability and once you push past that you might see engines fail under warranty more.

    I still want the TTV6 in the ATS-V, leaving the LT1 for the Camaro. It'd make an ATS-V coupe and a Camaro SS distinctly different cars despite them being siblings. The rags WILL mention the shared platform heavily, so some crowbar separation is good in my mind. It gives the Camaro something unique, which the Camaro team wants and deserves.

    ...which is amazing. Remember when the Camaro had a Pontiac as a stablemate? Now it has a Cadillac for a stablemate?! The times, they are a' changin...

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    JimmyH is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    I wonder what kind of oil pump it's going to have.

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    Re: New M3/M4: 430 hp & < 3,306 lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by roadpie4u View Post
    ... I still want the TTV6 in the ATS-V ...
    Not sure off hand what the weight difference is between the 3.6 ATS and the CTS-Vsport with the TTV6 -- maybe 250 lbs? -- but the latter has shown some very nice performance numbers. Maybe the LF3 at 420 hp will be enough for the ATS-V for it to slot into Cadillac's line up, but is it enough to beat the competition, i.e. M3/M4 at an underrated 430 hp and a slick tranny?



    Jimmy, are you referring to oil pump problems the old 3.6 had? I knew about some timing chain issues way back, but not oil pumps.
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