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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed in Cadillac V-Series Forums; Originally Posted by krummel21 ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed Anyone know what will ...
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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Quote Originally Posted by krummel21 View Post
    ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed
    Anyone know what will be in the specialer and specialest editions?

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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Motor Trend has said a lot of things that didn't pan out.

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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    i was going to say that too... since when does motor trend confirm GM future plans that GM hasn't even announced yet?
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    I hope the upcoming availability of the TTV6 in the XTS indicates that it won't be a "V" engine, especially considering the problems that Ford is having with its over-hyped Ecoboost V6. Besides, how much more power could we expect in a streetable TTV6 and still maintain good durability?

    Jud
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    wilmo is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Have you driven a ttv6 ecoboost? They are very quick even in a 4300 lb taurus sho.. And the tuning possibilites would be endless. It could be worse..

    ----------

    Also look at the nissan gtr.. 530hp from a reliable stock ttv6.. Which can reach well over 1000 tuned.. Plus ford ran baja with the ecoboost, there is plenty of durability there, but all new engines have growing pains.

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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    I hope the upcoming availability of the TTV6 in the XTS indicates that it won't be a "V" engine, especially considering the problems that Ford is having with its over-hyped Ecoboost V6. Besides, how much more power could we expect in a streetable TTV6 and still maintain good durability?

    Jud
    I would welcome a TTV6 over a LT1 purely for it's tuning potentional and power band. The Car I came from used a 2.7TT powertrain and people easily double or triple that engine's stock output for very little cash. The single remeaming quality of the LT1 would be that V8 noise and maybe simplicitiy of design possibly leading twoard lower long-term ownership costs. It'll likely also have a vast aftermarket eventually, but the LF3 I'm sure will be able to get a tune and tweak to 500Hp easily.

    The fact that
    a) this brand has essentially 0 aftermarket outside of the LS engines which essentially mooch off the camaro/vette owners
    b) the LF3 is in the CTS- Vsport and XTS
    both reinforce that should it get a TTV6, we may not be totally blacked from aftermarket like some german sedans are. Given that the engine is avaliable in other vehicles.

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    Look at it from GM's perspective, not potential owners' interest in aftermarket "tunes" or whatever. Most people aren't interested in mods. Cadillac has had great success using V8's in the "V's" and doesn't need the "me too" attitude and copy the Japanese or the Germans. Doing it the American way makes a better statement. Also, don't underplay the simplicity, efficiency, power and compact size of the LSx V8's. Dumping essentially the same TTV6 available in other Cadillac models, in a "V," dilutes the exclusivity of the "V's" and makes them more mundane. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    both great points ... i wonder if this same conversation/discussion happened 6 months to a year ago in some conference room in one of the upper floors of the Renaissance Center
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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    Look at it from GM's perspective, not potential owners' interest in aftermarket "tunes" or whatever. Most people aren't interested in mods. Cadillac has had great success using V8's in the "V's" and doesn't need the "me too" attitude and copy the Japanese or the Germans. Doing it the American way makes a better statement. Also, don't underplay the simplicity, efficiency, power and compact size of the LSx V8's. Dumping essentially the same TTV6 available in other Cadillac models, in a "V," dilutes the exclusivity of the "V's" and makes them more mundane. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

    Jud
    One could argue in favor of the LF3 in many ways, from an economy standpoint, from a car cohesion standpoint in that it's used in other vehicles, and from a standpoint that a higher-tech engine may attract tech-savy interested buyers that would otherwise be looking at tri-tubro I6's in an F80 M3 or an M156 in a C63, or even the wonderful 4.2 in the Audi. I mean.. those are beautifully hand-crafted engines that ooze class by simply looking at them. Have you seen an LS? It's utilitarian by comparison. the LF3 though makes an impression, and that's the direction I'd like Cadillac to eventually take. The LS will always be a GMstaple, but that doesn't mean it needs to dominate every aspect of the company. GM is capable of engineering very capable engines, and I'd like them to apply that power more often to their luxury cars where they don't want to listen to piston slap, or suck gas at a rate of 15mpg combined.

    Also, don't underplay the simplicity, efficiency, power and compact size of the LSx V8's.
    I don't see where I was underplaying it? I openly admitted it's strengths?

    What I will say is, if Cadillac is fine with offering it in the CTS and XTS, which will both push more volume than any variant of an ATS-V, I'm certain a much lower volume vehicle such as the ATS-V won't even register as blip on their cost/ risk ratios.

    Dumping essentially the same TTV6 available in other Cadillac models, in a "V," dilutes the exclusivity of the "V's" and makes them more mundane. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.
    If Cadillac is emulating the Germans(which they are-- to a T so far), then they will have no problem with re-tuning an LF3 for duty in an ATS-V
    Audi, BMW and Mercedes *all* have re tuned the engines in their respective 'v sport' models.
    Audi with the 4L biturbo V8 (which they tuned for 420hp in the S6, 560HP in the RS6 and 520HP in the S8)
    BMW did it with the 4.4L biturbo in the X5M, X6M, M5, and 550/650i
    Mercedes has six different variants of the M157 in their various models, which is basicly a version of the M278 found in a plethora of upper-tier E-class and various niche models.


    A V8 would appease only pure enthusiasts, and even among enthusiasts there's a niche that wants the V8 and nothing else- such as yourself. The reality is, there are far more strengths in the LF3 than there are in the V8, and while the ATS itself makes a good case to core enthusiasts, I can easily see this one going either way. More importantly, I can see it going either way and being completely satisfied, and that's the difference between us and the vette crowd. Audi's proven that they think there's still a market for a compact V8 wagon with the B8 RS4 at least, but clearly, Forced induction is the way of the future, and it's advantages are simply too noticeable to ignore in a sports sedan that's supposed to offer duality of a daily driver and track-attack weapon. If Cadillac is going to beat the M3 by the numbers, the LF3 is the engine to do it for them, not the LT1(or worse a detuned/destroked version of it), because a car can not win on it's engine's soul alone.

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    If "tech savvy" buyers will gravitate towards a TTV6 as opposed to an LT1, then they are ignorant as car guys and may not appreciate a "V." What higher tech does the TTV6 have that the LT1 doesn't have? Four valves per cylinder, turbocharging and supercharging have been around since the early 1900's. So I guess that hype is more important than reality? Again, why care about the Germans? They have had a lot of problems with their blown engines. I realize that blown technology is desirable to get a lot of torque in a heavy car like mine, but don't think that it's high tech, only refinements to nearly a century old technology.

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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Again, why care about the Germans?
    If Cadillac cared nothing about what the germans did, there would be no ATS, infact there would be no modern day Cadillac.

    They're after 3 series buyers, not corvette V8 loving buyers. Now, it's true that traditionally BMW has been about high revving N/A engines, but with the S63tu wooing buyers into the F10 over the S85, I'm not so certain their core fanbase will be so quick to shun a F/I M3. BMW's certinally betting on a bright F/I future. Nearly their entire lineup is F/I. Clearly Cadillac is willing to follow in their stead with the 2.0T and LF3.

    If "tech savvy" buyers will gravitate towards a TTV6 as opposed to an LT1, then they are ignorant as car guys and may not appreciate a "V." What higher tech does the TTV6 have that the LT1 doesn't have? Four valves per cylinder, turbocharging and supercharging have been around since the early 1900's. So I guess that hype is more important than reality?
    Appreciation means nothing. Sales do.

    and you can't look at it from a pure technology perspective. Tech buyers, like new and exciting products. The LF3 is new and exciting. I don't look at the engine and say ' what a refinement of 100 year old hardware that is' I look at it and say 'hmmm I wonder what 600hp from this thing would feel like'
    That's what makes euro-people get all happy in their pants about. Individuality. There's a shocking lack of that in the LS powered world where if you're not making 1000HP you're a no body.

    Someone that's made 700whp in a B5 S4 though... he's a crazy maniac, and he's my idol that I might drive up 400 miles to waterfest and see though.

    That's what the CTS-V misses. A community like that. We have comparatively nothing, and seek to mooch off other chevrolet events that are numerous to the point of laughability. I mean, we're all nice and friendly here on the forum and such, but it's different for certain.

    I'm not saying that a single engine would change the entire brand into something like the VAG empire of GTI's and slamed A4's, but having our own unique, tunable engine would go a long way to brining the enthusiast community together to help each other out when the cars age a bit and need TLC. When we can't run to LStech or corvette forums for help.

    Also,

    Most M3 buyers don't drive their cars past road-racing and grocery getting-- which the LF3 is ideal for.

    M3 owners don't typically track their vehicles to 'appreciate them', I've seen 10 times as many E46 3 series cars than I have any make or model M3 at the local autocross days. They don't pack LS engines, they pack 200hp I6's, so to bring up appreciation would be over-reaching as an aspect that the normal M3 buyer posses.

    In my opinion, they're looking a pretty fast car that also is easily driveable every day, and maybe a badge, but to say that the M3 isn't a great car would not be doing it justice either.

    If they think that they're going to attract more customers with a fuel-efficient powertrain that also happens to output better numbers than whatever the M3's packing, they're going to take it, and the LF3 has the best chance of that.

    The only chance the V8 has is if GM decides to have a boblutz moment at the last second at throw the corvette LT1 in there. I rather doubt that will happen, considering they want to not just win over N/A but win globally where gas is $9 a gallon. So I'm betting on an LF3.


    Don't get me wrong.,

    I completely understand and partially agree with your logic.

    I love the idea of an LT1 ATS, it retains some american values in a compact platform. However, where our fantasies and reality come together the truth is that Cadillac has never been about using up what GM has to offer from the small block.There have been only 2 'mistakes' of this occurring in Cadillac's past, and it's only within the last decade where the northstar simply wasn't sufficient to provide the power they needed (because they used it in the STS)

    They have throughout the decades intentionally gone out of their way to produce anti-LS engines. Be it the northstar, using the 3.6 LFX, or the various caddy- branded V8's from the 50s-80s. Cadillac has always been about doing it's own thing and trying to differentiate itself from the laymans corvette/truck motor. All of that was prior to them aggressively taking on europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater
    If Cadillac cared nothing about what the germans did. There would be no ATS, lets go further and say there would be no modern day Cadillac.

    They're after 3 series buyers, not corvette V8 loving buyers.

    Appreciation means nothing. Sales do.

    Most M3 buyers don't drive their cars past road-racing and grocery getting.

    I've seen 10 times as many E46 3 series cars than I have any make or model of M3 at the local autocross days.
    You have the last word, as usual, but I hope that Cadillac is monitoring.
    Jud

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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    You have the last word, as usual, but I hope that Cadillac is monitoring.
    I don't mean to try getting the last word in. I simply enjoy talking with you!

    and then editing my post to death..of course.

    this definitely doesn't count as the last word.

    nor this. Nevermind.

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    I rest my case and adjourn to happy hour!

    Jud
    M5eater and M5eater like this.
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    Re: ATS-V = V6TT, ATS-V Special Edition = V8 per Motor Trend Confirmed

    Quote Originally Posted by RippyPartsDept View Post
    both great points ... i wonder if this same conversation/discussion happened 6 months to a year ago in some conference room in one of the upper floors of the Renaissance Center
    My guess is that this argument/discussion has been going on longer than that and, if it's not still actively going on, it's still festering within those who've been overruled and are now silent.

    As I read the posts above, I'm even more convinced the ATS-V motor will be the LF3. For those who have no intention on modding the motor, it should be very serviceable and satisfy 95+% of them. For those who intend to mod the motor, they will find it very easy just to increase the boost alone to get very nice power thereby satisfying 95+% of them. Let the Camaro crowd and the Vette crowd have the LSx motors. I'm not much of a Camaro fan, but an LSx powered Vette would be outstanding to me. Then, if technical improvements can stay ahead of CAFE standards, the ATS-V2 should knock your socks off.
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