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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6 in Cadillac V-Series Forums; Lots of variations mean lots of press and lots of chances to find customers willing to pay big premiums for ...
  1. #271
    Jinx is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Lots of variations mean lots of press and lots of chances to find customers willing to pay big premiums for perceived exclusivity and superiority. I bet you're tired of seeing yet another GEICO commercial telling you what 15 minutes can save you, too, but it's effective.

  2. #272
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    A six with a twin turbo and a cold air would soud awsome. But nothing like a v8. I'd still buy one just to pull up next to an M3. A d dust it. As light as the ATS is is perfectly capaple with a six. Just that much sweeter if it does.

  3. #273
    rand49er's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    CTS Vsport's urb weight is reported at 3,956 lbs per Carlos Lagos video. Couldn't get link ... sorry.

    At nearly 300 lbs less, a TTV6 ATS-V should go 4.0 0-60 or possibly less ... with the 8-spd AT.

    Not sure that's gonna be enough, though.
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  4. #274
    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    Jfjr, there is no actual legitimate reason to put the ttv6 in the ats-v.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    You could argue fuel economy but you'd just be kidding yourself. Look at the f150 with the ecoboost v6. Truth is, the only benefit to the v6 is that you can say you have a v6 and sound Eco friendly.
    Totally untrue. The main advantage of the ecoboost v6 isn't in the window sticker or "real world mpg" to its users - it is actually what the CAFE numbers are. Due to variations in testing for the EPA and DOT testing (Window Sticker and CAFE) manufacturers now have to calibrate a powertrain for one method or the other (or somewhere in the middle). In the case of replacing a V8 with a TTV6 (where the CAFE testing leaves the engine entirely out of boost, it blows the V8 out of the water something fierce. GM putting the TTV6 in the ATS/CTS/XTS helps to allow the vehicles to do better on CAFE, which allow boosted V8s through without killing the entire curve. It's dumb that the government has multiple ways to test the same thing and multiple departments to do it - but it's been that way for decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    You could argue weight but you wouldn't actually be basing that on hard facts at this point. You'd just be speculating and the truth is, with the small block being a smaller engine dimensionally than the DOHC v6, plus the LT1's lack of forced induction hardware, the weight of the engines will be very similar.
    From what I've heard (for a year) it's not the total weight - I'd wager good money the TTV6 with intercoolers and all hardware will be slightly heavier than the LT1 - but the center of mass will be several inches closer to the firewall and apparently if you were interested in maximizing steering feel and handling performance, that makes a big difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    You could say that the car will do 60 in 4 seconds, but I guarantee the m3 will do it sooner.
    If you're going to accuse others of speculation about engine weights, you gotta admit your comment about a "guarantee" of under 4 seconds is speculation as well. We know the fastest times won't be with manual transmissions now, but that's about it. The first big hurdle is the addition of Euro6 emission standards on the M3 - the penalty it hits having to hit those standards will also apply to the US, which is something that Cadillac actually doesn't have to deal with. Second, any car that can hit a 0-60 about 4 seconds or faster with only 2WD starts to become increasingly inconsistent on the street to hit that time - I suspect BMW will be slightly conservative with the car's 0-60 and set up the car to be consistent instead of just balls-to-the-wall fast. The last M3 and 335i are actually really close in 0-60 despite all the advantages the M3 had. The new one isn't adding that much to the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    The new e63 does 60 in 3.3 seconds.
    There is no "New E63". Lets be specific here. The new E63 AMG hits it in 3.4 seconds (rated). It also has AWD, which is how it hits those numbers. Second, the E63 AMG starts at $93,000 - which is in the stratosphere compared to the second gen CTS-V at $65,000.

    That said, you do hit a good talking point that doesn't belong in this thread, but is valid. Should GM really "kick up" the CTS-V's price from one generation to the next by $25,000? Does GM really push the CTS-V that high? Or would it make more sense in some strange way to have a "CTS-V+" sitting above it, much like an "AMG Black"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    The new ctsv needs to be no slower than 3.5.
    In order to get to 60 that fast consistently, it'll need AWD, which is a whole new direction for the CTS-V.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    Oh and if the 7 speed isn't put in the atsv, Cadillac will really have missed the boat.
    Agreed 110% - I hope it fits. The next question becomes will they eventually offer the 7 speed manual with the TTV6 in the CTSV-Sport? GM has this habit of having the same engine in different cars on the same platform with different transmissions, and it needs to stop. The Germans are getting away from manual transmissions these days and I think it would bring GM credit to offer them - even at a price premium - in as many vehicles as possible. Just take the hit in engineering for the street credit you gain.

  5. #275
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Lot's of good accurate info roadpie....nice to see facts quoted and good assumptions based on more than opinion.

    We have single and twin turbo 3.6 DI builds getting 28-30 MPG on the interstate at 75 MPH with cruise control.

    We also with the LFX can get close to 500 rwhp out of a 2wd CTS. 300# less is 3 tenths in the 1/4 mile on weight alone......but traction is always an issue bringing the AWD the best choice IMHP for a ultimate V6 TT build.

    We just had one of our older 3.6 LLT builds make 447 rwhp with our new tuning solution vs just under 400 with the old trifecta, and no change in the fuel system...same car, same system, but they were able to do wonders....so cant wait until we do the next TT LFX CTS and shoot for 500 at the wheels. (that is close to 600 at the flywheel as GM advertises).

    So we have been making 450-500 fly wheel HP for years with these engines, so they can handle it until we get in the mid 600 that we see the rods not able to handle it.
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  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150
    Lot's of good accurate info roadpie....nice to see facts quoted and good assumptions based on more than opinion. We have single and twin turbo 3.6 DI builds getting 28-30 MPG on the interstate at 75 MPH with cruise control. We also with the LFX can get close to 500 rwhp out of a 2wd CTS. 300# less is 3 tenths in the 1/4 mile on weight alone......but traction is always an issue bringing the AWD the best choice IMHP for a ultimate V6 TT build. We just had one of our older 3.6 LLT builds make 447 rwhp with our new tuning solution vs just under 400 with the old trifecta, and no change in the fuel system...same car, same system, but they were able to do wonders....so cant wait until we do the next TT LFX CTS and shoot for 500 at the wheels. (that is close to 600 at the flywheel as GM advertises). So we have been making 450-500 fly wheel HP for years with these engines, so they can handle it until we get in the mid 600 that we see the rods not able to handle it.
    So what do you think the hp limit would be for the TTV6 in terms of durability for a mass produced street engine with a GM warranty? Forget about cruising at a constant moderate speed on the highway. Do you really think that a TTV6 in the hands of a performance buyer would achieve significantly better gas mileage than the V8 it replaces when doing typical driving on the street? And what would a higher center of gravity for the TTV6 do for handling?
    Jud

  7. #277
    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    So what do you think the hp limit would be for the TTV6 in terms of durability for a mass produced street engine with a GM warranty?
    You can't just say "what is the hp limit" because that's actually a very hard question to answer. Depending on gearing, vehicle weight, intended application, etc. more power may be required to get similar performance and we don't know what the final drive ratio will be. Further, you have the concern of people "lugging" a boosted engine at low RPM and WOT with a manual transmission, which isn't ideal either - but that can be resolved by controlling the turbo and modern tuning. We need to look at BSFC and engine temps to really see what the engine is capable of, but as we lack that raw data it's had to deal with.

    But if you want some vague off-the-cuff number?

    Knowing what I know, GM could easily push the TTV6 to 480hp. Previous experience says they shouldn't see a horrendous impact to MTTF till they break 500hp. The problem is GM doesn't want to do that right now. With powertrain life cycles in the 5-7 year range and engineering taking 5-7 years before it gets released, you cannot afford to uncork the engine in the first year with all of it's tricks exposed - you ALWAYS leave more in the tap so year after year you can slightly increase power and if the competition increases their ratings or comes out with a new engine halfway through your life cycle you can bump it some more.

    GM also has gearing to play with - if they go with the 7 speed they can drop the final drive ratio to make the thing faster with less power. Also being a turbo engine versus normally aspirated, they can control boost based on engine load and gear in order to minimize drivetrain abuse (neutral drops, full throttle starts etc) that have the highest chances of breaking the driveline.

    It should be said of GM's most recent boosted engines, the highest engine with failure rates was the LNF - and it wasn't the longblock that was the issue, it was the turbocharger itself that'd fail under warranty.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    Forget about cruising at a constant moderate speed on the highway. Do you really think that a TTV6 in the hands of a performance buyer would achieve significantly better gas mileage than the V8 it replaces when doing typical driving on the street?
    I'm guessing you didn't read my post thoroughly. GM doesn't need you to get any better mpg with a TTV6 or V8. If you're buying a $60,000 car, odds are 1-2-3mpg highway doesn't matter. However, CAFE may very well be talking a 5-7mpg difference according to their testing - and THAT is huge for GM in order to meet the fleet wide requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    And what would a higher center of gravity for the TTV6 do for handling?
    The exact center of mass in terms of removing a cylinder bore (front-to-rear) is large and easy to see between the V6 and V8. You not only get to pull a cylinder bore, but you also move the engine accessories as well. In terms of top-to-bottom, while DOHC does increase mass of the castings and aux components, it doesn't raise it as high as you'd think. The vertical increase isn't as pronounced - and if GM pulls the turbos down closer to the crank centerline the DOHC might have the same vertical center of mass.

    Additionally, by going to a shorter block you open up more space for a cooling package in front of the engine, allow different steering rack and sway bar locations, etc.

    I won't deny in the end that the Gen V V8 (along with GM's previous recent OHV engines) are some of the lightest, most power dense, most efficient for their output, cheapest, easiest to work on, easiest to maintain, longest lasting, and generally best sounding performance engines out there. But in the case of a 450hp engine versus a 450hp engine (LT1 vs TTV6) we have to very carefully compare the two based on technical details and engineering facts - not based entirely on emotional desires or an obsession with one engine or another - along with the fact that the ATS-V isn't in a vacuum - it shares the alpha platform with many other existing and future vehicles - AND the fact that the number of technical variables includes way more than "small, light, power dense, v8". While those clear criteria are critical for the Corvette with it's extremely tight engine bay and extremely short firewall, alpha can hold a tall DOHC I4 and a DOHC V6 which means that the space savings (vertically and side to side) of the LT1 is irrelevant because the suspension tower locations.

    As I've said elsewhere a million times, the fact that 80 percent of 1 series owners think their car is FWD is evidence enough that the exact engine or number of cylinders powering a car isn't as important as we think it is. We are the extreme minority here.
    Ancient Mariner likes this.

  8. #278
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by roadpie4u View Post
    Knowing what I know, GM could easily push the TTV6 to 480hp.
    Did you mean to say downgrade rather than push it to 480? It would make 490 with the same HP/displacement as the 2.0T.

  9. #279
    Guy.Seminerio is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    I do believe the next gen cts-v will start in the neighborhood of $90k.

    A black series type of car would be very interesting for v series. Maybe with the ats-v they could throw the v8 into the "black series."

    I'm pretty sure I once read about the previous gen (before f30) m3 with the DCT doing 60 in under 4. That's what led me to speculate that the next one would do it just as fast or faster.

    True story about better turn in with as much weight as possible behind the front axle.

    So maybe I somewhat misspoke about the reason behind ecoboost. The testing allows for a loophole where boost isn't always tapped into, therefore yielding better results. They still love to throw that "ecoboost v6" around. Same way 1 series owners think their car is fwd (jeez) I bet f150 owners with the v6 will tell you they got the v6 to save money on gas when in the end, real world, they're not.

  10. #280
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio View Post
    I do believe the next gen cts-v will start in the neighborhood of $90k ...
    That would all but so eliminate me from getting one. As it is, I may have to cajole my wife into a one-year-old ATS-V and let someone else take that big, 1st-year hit.

    I'd wait two years for some ungodly "black series" CTS-V, though.
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  11. #281
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    If you guys watched the split screen video of the new Z28 and ZL1 Camaros going around the 'Ring, you'll know why the LS7 (or even the n/a LT1) are the best engine choices. The sound of that angry n/a LS7 in the Z28 makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, not to mention the great performance. There's nothing wrong with an ATS Vsport with the TTV6 either, for the middle engine choice.
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  12. #282
    ETHANOREO is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    If you guys watched the split screen video of the new Z28 and ZL1 Camaros going around the 'Ring, you'll know why the LS7 (or even the n/a LT1) are the best engine choices. The sound of that angry n/a LS7 in the Z28 makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, not to mention the great performance. There's nothing wrong with an ATS Vsport with the TTV6 either, for the middle engine choice.
    If Caddy is listening they should do that. Myself if the TTV6 goes in then I will likely end up with a M3. If its the LS7 then this will go to the top of my list. I bet there are a lot of M3 purchasers who would prefer a 8 to a turbo 6 too.

  13. #283
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by ETHANOREO View Post
    If its the LS7 then this will go to the top of my list.
    The LS7 is a lame-duck engine. The LT1 as it stands is better on mpg, emissions, and only suffers a slight dip in power... and costs a fraction of the price for only a couple ponies less. If GM wanted to bump the LT1 to over 500hp, all they have to do it is put a mild cam on it and be done with it.

    And for that matter, the LSA and LS9 are lame-duck engines as well.

  14. #284
    JimmyH is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    The LT1 doesn't have forged internals like the LS7. Of course, the LT1 doesn't have the failure rate that the LS7 has either (yet). I think GM is following the lead of their German and Japanese competitors and marginalizing their components. The golden age of modding engines is coming to a close. Better off buying a crate engine these days.

  15. #285
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    It is for sure going to be the same power plant as XTS-V, GNX will share same configuration as we'll.....there are no scheduled bumps in horsepower until 2016 when Omega Chassis debuts

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