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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6 in Cadillac V-Series Forums; "Blunt instrument." It's a turn of phrase that you used to belittle the LT1 compared to the TTV6, essentially without ...
  1. #151
    Jinx is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    "Blunt instrument." It's a turn of phrase that you used to belittle the LT1 compared to the TTV6, essentially without substance, so I object to it. And "smaller" is debatable. It seems to me getting similar work/ability from a simpler machine could be described as sharper.

    I will never convince you that this V8 is not inferior to this TTV6, despite the fact that in the only versions of these engines announced so far the V8 produces significantly more power. You're arguing what could be against what is.

    As for LSA-vs-LS9, you undersell the differences a bit:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...n-ls9-lsa.html

  2. #152
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    For the TTV6 to be more fuel efficient than the LT1 in the real world, the driver would have to stay out of boost as much as possible. That is probably wishful thinking for those that opt for the TTV6. I suspect Cadillac developed the engine to show it could and snub its nose at the Germans, and to attract those types of buyers that wrongly equate complexity with superiority.

    Jud
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    The LT1 is a gorgeous cam-in-block, naturally-aspirated engine. The LF3 is a gorgeous overhead cam, forced-induction engine.

    What's not to like?
    '05 CTS-V, Maggie, Kooks, Hotchkis, Ground Control, Corsa, B&M, DSS/Hendrix, Full 3M Clear Bra, Autovation, V Headrests, CTS Console, STS-V 55w Fogs, Black Vette FRCs, Specter Werkes, Katech LS9 Clutch, SS Brake Lines, Heavymetals U-Turn Fuel Line Eliminator, Momo Combat Evo Shift Knob, Wldwhl Clear Sidemarkers, Linea Corse LC855 Wheels or OEM wheels w/'06-'07 Center Caps, plus a couple more. 472 RWHP/411 RWTQ (Mustang Dyno).

  4. #154
    Jinx is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by JFJr View Post
    A little light reading before bedtime: http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm. I haven't read it yet, but it should answer your question. I'm pretty sure that the Rolls Royce Merlin V-12 used in the P-51 Mustang was supercharged, but don't know if was a combo or not. BTW, I wish that I could afford to restore and fly a P-51D; marvelous fighter.

    Jud
    Yeah, planes make cars look cheap.

    Found -- the B-17 Flying Fortress engines had both a blower and a turbo. This is a fascinating video, a mechanic giving an overview of the B-17's engines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbPrfqfCg7I

    ----------

    It seems the Merlins had two-stage superchargers but not exhaust-driven turbos.

  5. #155
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    Those that appreciate WWII technology will understand current automotive "advancements." Younger guys take notice. At the moment we're talking about refinements, not totally new technology.

    Jud
    Jud

  6. #156
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    "Blunt instrument." It's a turn of phrase that you used to belittle the LT1 compared to the TTV6, essentially without substance, so I object to it. And "smaller" is debatable. It seems to me getting similar work/ability from a simpler machine could be described as sharper.

    I will never convince you that this V8 is not inferior to this TTV6, despite the fact that in the only versions of these engines announced so far the V8 produces significantly more power. You're arguing what could be against what is.

    As for LSA-vs-LS9, you undersell the differences a bit:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...n-ls9-lsa.html
    blunt instrument is a turn of phrase and that's all, if you think I'm belittling your pick of engines then that is a problem you need to work out with yourself. if you think I dislike traditional American muscle you'd be mistaken. a little background as the son of mechanic from the third world who started his career converting American diplomatic limos for use on poor quality local gas and ended up a factory Mercedes Benz mechanic trainer, I've been around and in and built more of this stuff than most. I dig all kinds of cars for different reasons and should mention I learned to drive a stick on '76 stingray picked up directly from bowling green by an original top gun pilot the first instructor class (so this car wasn't gimped by smog stuff) and also mention the Hennessy v-wagon I had built for my work month before last. so you don't know diddly about my preferences.

    a blunt instrument is merely blunt it's neither bad nor good, it's designed for smashing... a sharp instrument likewise has no moral leaning and is simply used to cut or poke. in the historical past both blunt and sharp instruments would be used on the same battlefield and both with amazing effectiveness.

    now I happen to own an ats and happen to believe the cadillac reps I come in contact with and it is my belief the ats-v will be a v6. this belief is based on the hints I hear but will not be confirmed when i ask directly, the marketing messages available to us all, and my driving experience with the car. as v owners I get your passion for the v8 but you seem a little too wound up, I just think the 6 lines up with the car, and Cadillacs stated goals and message.

    now for the next gen CTS I can't wait to see what they do, and I sincerely hope they can fix this situation of being punk'd by Chevy (580hp in 2013 and '14 caddy still has 556 Chevy's just gotta be pullin strings to keep the premier brand out of the goody box) and yes it's v8 all the way here which for the same reasons I stated with the ats. the CTS-V lines up nicely with the m5 which also has a v8.

  7. #157
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Your life story and resume don't do a thing to shore up your metaphorical slapdashery.

    And your impressive inside knowledge obtained from your Cadillac connections on what the ATS-V will have changes nothing about the relative merits of the two powertrains or the fact that your list of advantages were based on a foundation of what could be compared to what is. Either that or you're still having trouble acknowledging that 460hp > 420hp.

    I'm not saying the ATS-V couldn't possibly have a TTV6. I merely offered counterpoint to your enthusiastic but not very robust "checklist" "proving" a TTV6 to be better than the LT1 for the ATS-V. You're welcome to your preference, but don't act like it's obviously technically superior (it isn't) or even obviously a more fitting choice.

    And repeating your conspiracy theory of Chevrolet holding back Cadillac doesn't make it any more true. There is a simpler, more straightforward, and more believeable explanation, which someone with your legendary history shouldn't have trouble seeing. You seem a little too wound up.

    I'm sure the ATS-V will be a thrilling ride no matter which engine ends up under the hood.

  8. #158
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Meanwhile, at the legion of doom


  9. #159
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    Your life story and resume don't do a thing to shore up your metaphorical slapdashery.

    And your impressive inside knowledge obtained from your Cadillac connections on what the ATS-V will have changes nothing about the relative merits of the two powertrains or the fact that your list of advantages were based on a foundation of what could be compared to what is. Either that or you're still having trouble acknowledging that 460hp > 420hp.

    I'm not saying the ATS-V couldn't possibly have a TTV6. I merely offered counterpoint to your enthusiastic but not very robust "checklist" "proving" a TTV6 to be better than the LT1 for the ATS-V. You're welcome to your preference, but don't act like it's obviously technically superior (it isn't) or even obviously a more fitting choice.

    And repeating your conspiracy theory of Chevrolet holding back Cadillac doesn't make it any more true. There is a simpler, more straightforward, and more believeable explanation, which someone with your legendary history shouldn't have trouble seeing. You seem a little too wound up.

    I'm sure the ATS-V will be a thrilling ride no matter which engine ends up under the hood.
    you CTS-v guys are seriously funny easily bothered people, crying afoul one persons belief that one model of a car is likely going to have a certain engine equates to hatred of the v8, or the the technical superiority of one over the other. my so called resume was offered to counter any belief that any may have that I'm a v8 hater, it was obviously lost on you. so to each his own, and hopefully you CTS guys will leave us ats guys alone to talk about our cars in peace in an open minded place. too bad, it's lost on you guys that you are exhibiting the very closed mindedness in favor of your beloved motor that you are accusing me of, makes me laugh.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    I see. Not accepting wishful thinking ("look at the boxes the TTV6 ticks off that play into the overall goals for this car") as fact makes people closed-minded. BTW, the ATS-V Series Forum isn't yours. Talk about your ATS in peace all you like in ATS General, but don't get your feelings hurt when you come here to talk about the future ATS-V and your checkbox conclusions are questioned. That would be closed-minded. Or at least making posts that read like a blunt instrument. Maybe, if you'd stuck to the car instead of making it about who you are vs who I am and whipping the oh-so-tired "hater" label around like overcooked spaghetti, we'd have gotten somewhere interesting instead of dramatic. But I'm glad to hear you're laughing -- you're not alone there.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    ... conspiracy theory of Chevrolet holding back Cadillac doesn't make it any more true ...
    Not sure if this still occurs, but it certainly did in the past. My dad was a Pontiac product engineer from '47 to '85. When the Firebird was being proposed to GM management by Pontiac in the early '60s, Chevrolet vetoed the idea of it being a two-seater (as proposed) so as not to compete with the Corvette and insisted on coming out with their own version, effectively a spinoff, the Camaro. True story.

    Does Chevy still get their panties in a bunch and put pressure at the corporate level to prevent the other "divisions" from, as they see it, stealing their sales? I'm not so naive.
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  12. #162
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Yes, the story of the Pontiac Banshee, which happened 49 years ago, is pretty well documented. Of course, some things have changed since then. What hasn't changed is the oversimplifying-to-the-point-of-mischaracterization nature of the original comment:

    I suspect Chevy has a lock on that motor I don't think they're letting cadillac have the fun they want, I don't see another logical reason cadillac would want the camaro to have 580hp and the corvette 638hp to Cadillacs 556hp with the same motor.
    LS9 was a hand-built exotic-internals engine. CTS-V blew everyone away and grabbed the fastest production sedan lap time at Nurburgring without being a tiny-volume too-expensive-for-a-Cadillac stunt.

    The Camaro ZL1 was a critically-necessary response to the Mustang GT500. While I'm sure we'd all be over the moon had that updated engine been backported to the CTS-V, maybe reclaim the edge over the new M5, is "Chevy won't let Cadillac have it" the only possible reason? How about the cost of recertifying in the fourth year versus the sales benefit. Or all the other critical projects keeping GM and Cadillac busy.

    But let's not forget that the context of this quote is the ATS-V's engine choice, and the "that motor" we're talking about is the LT1. Is it reasonable to think GM wouldn't let Cadillac have the LT1 for a MY2015 BMW M3 fighter because of Chevy protectionism? Quite simply no. The first CTS-V got the tip-of-the-sword LS6; the GTO got the LS1 and got the LS2 a year later -- in C6's debut year no less. And the ATS-V is too important to Cadillac to hold anything back for Chevy pride. If the brain trust deems the LT1 necessary for ATS-V's success, it'll have it.

    Not to say that there's no lingering sentiment of protectionism, but it's naive to think it's the driving force in GM product planning today. It's less unlikely that Cadillac's own sense of pride tilts it toward using a motor it can call its own, but we should hope they've learned from past attempts that it's more important to build a winning car.

    Picking a TTV6 over the LT1 is a risky move, and if they go that way, I really hope they build a winner, and I'm worried the LF3 as we've seen it so far may not be enough. Few competitors are as daunting as the M3, and market biases being what they are, Cadillac cannot afford to show up with fewer ponies. Then again, maybe with the V6 they say "damn the gaskets, full boost ahead!"

    BTW, anyone interested in GM politics should read Car Guys vs Bean Counters by Bob Lutz. And the dated but still illuminating All Corvettes Are Red by James Schefter. There are other good books, but these are fascinating reads.

    .Jinx

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    Also, the ATS-V will probably be significantly heavier than the C7 and is designed for a different market, so putting an LT1 in it won't take away from C7 sales. While we're at it, why not add the Tremec 6070 and 2-stage exhaust, too? Now that's a winning package for the ATS-V!

    Jud
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    I see. Not accepting wishful thinking ("look at the boxes the TTV6 ticks off that play into the overall goals for this car") as fact makes people closed-minded. BTW, the ATS-V Series Forum isn't yours. Talk about your ATS in peace all you like in ATS General, but don't get your feelings hurt when you come here to talk about the future ATS-V and your checkbox conclusions are questioned. That would be closed-minded. Or at least making posts that read like a blunt instrument. Maybe, if you'd stuck to the car instead of making it about who you are vs who I am and whipping the oh-so-tired "hater" label around like overcooked spaghetti, we'd have gotten somewhere interesting instead of dramatic. But I'm glad to hear you're laughing -- you're not alone there.
    you're funny, last i checked this is the ATS section as an owner of one of these this place is for me as much as anybody else, and as far as facts go if you think anything said in this section about a non-existing model in a wishful thinking engine thread is fact then that's something else you have to work out. you're wrong I'm right in my mind, I'm wrong you're right in yours, it's all conjecture until Cadillac pulls the wraps off the car, until then it's wishfull debate, nothing more.

    a side note, I will get to drive a pre-production CTS v-sport probably end of summer beginning of fall, on a car that will be 300lbs heavier than ATS the target of 4.6 0-60 for the twin turbo 8speed combo should be quite interesting debate fodder.

  15. #165
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    ... the target of 4.6 0-60 for the twin turbo 8speed combo ...
    Are you referring to a CTS V-Sport doing this? If so, at 300 lbs lighter, an LF3-equipped ATS should be a couple ticks under 4.0 sec 0-60 I'd wager.

    Nice.
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