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Cadillac ATS-V Series Forum Discussion, Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6 in Cadillac ATS Discussion Forums; Originally Posted by Jinx 40hp short? check No performance heritage or reputation at all? check Most plebeian engine architecture possible ...
  1. #136
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    40hp short? check

    No performance heritage or reputation at all? check

    Most plebeian engine architecture possible compared to BMW's legendary inline six? check

    Fuel economy compared apples-to-apples with the LT1 not demonstrated nor proven? check

    Weight and overall packaging compared apples-to-apples with the LT1 unknown? check

    LT1 ready to go with 40hp more than the TTV6? check


    The superiority of the TTV6 is far from a foregone conclusion.

    .Jinx
    I don't buy it , cadillac is going to make the tt v6 their hero engine, they have an aversion to a highly refined corporate engine as evidenced by their sticking with the northstar which was finally replaced with the 3.6DI engine that out performed it

    the v8 is nice but it's a blunt instrument and their vision for themselves is as BMW's nemesis, they are tightly aligning themselves with BMW products the CTS-V was the m5 killer at an m3 price the ats is the 3 series killer and the new CTS is the 5 series killer. even the trims are lining up. mainline BMW, m-sport and m with cadillac mainline v-sport and v.

    frankly I suspect Chevy has a lock on that motor I don't think they're letting cadillac have the fun they want, I don't see another logical reason cadillac would want the camaro to have 580hp and the corvette 638hp to Cadillacs 556hp with the same motor.

    and to the point I made earlier about weight distribution cadillac is extremely proud that they achieved that with both the ATS and the new CTS, they would need to use the dry sump and titanium connecting rods among other tricks to get the weight down, which I'm sure is not in their cost targets

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    and to the point I made earlier about weight distribution cadillac is extremely proud that they achieved that with both the ATS and the new CTS, they would need to use the dry sump and titanium connecting rods among other tricks to get the weight down, which I'm sure is not in their cost targets
    I'm not understanding your reasoning, but I can assure you, given the LT only weighs aproximately 420-440lbs, and a LFX weighs in at a lofty 350, a pair of turbochargers, intercoolers, pumbing, along with block reinforcements and ect in the LF3 will put it within 20lbs of an LT1. Even amung the weight concerned, 20lbs is a small price to pay either way.

    With the LT1 bringing VVT , DI and DOD to the table,It wouldn't surprise me to know that the LT1 may be on par with, or better than the LF3 in fuel economy either. Before the CTS-V received a ridicliously short final gear, it was achieving 14/22 in the first gen V with an LS2.

    Anything less than 18/26 in an ATS-V will be a let down, in my opinion.
    bruff1977 likes this.

  3. #138
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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    I was a bit surprised when GM DIDN'T release official mileage numbers with the performance figures for the Stingray Z51. I know, different beast, but at least it would've given a ballpark figure of what to expect in a V8 powered ATS-V (27mpg highway?).

    The biggest take for me from the release was the last sentence. I think all Vsports will have the LF3.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by M5eater View Post
    I'm not understanding your reasoning, but I can assure you, given the LT only weighs aproximately 420-440lbs, and a LFX weighs in at a lofty 350, a pair of turbochargers, intercoolers, pumbing, along with block reinforcements and ect in the LF3 will put it within 20lbs of an LT1. Even amung the weight concerned, 20lbs is a small price to pay either way.

    With the LT1 bringing VVT , DI and DOD to the table,It wouldn't surprise me to know that the LT1 may be on par with, or better than the LF3 in fuel economy either. Before the CTS-V received a ridicliously short final gear, it was achieving 14/22 in the first gen V with an LS2.

    Anything less than 18/26 in an ATS-V will be a let down, in my opinion.
    i don't think it will be as heavy as you think, remember the standout features of the LFX is the cast in integrated exhaust manifold and composite intake manifold, this means the turbos directly bolt to the engine, the turbo is it's own downpipe.

    http://cnettv.cnet.com/2014-cadillac...-50143706.html

    here's a video of the cutaway of the LF3

    all these tricks in my analysis are about maximum weight savings. now the cynic in me doesn't think GM is doing this because they just woke up and found themselves disciples of Colin Chapman (Lotus), it is my belief this is all because of the new CAFE standards that are coming, it's the same reason BMW is downsizing its motors too dropping the v10 and v8 in their respective m cars they're under similar pressure. in the face of these weight savings that they must do, they are taking this time to go with it and exploit what they must already do.

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    The point is the LF3 won't be significantly lighter than the LT1 (old debate). What's yet to be discovered is whether or not the LF3, for the CTS Vsport, is at its limit mechanically. Same goes for the LT1.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by bruff1977 View Post
    The point is the LF3 won't be significantly lighter than the LT1 (old debate). What's yet to be discovered is whether or not the LF3, for the CTS Vsport, is at its limit mechanically. Same goes for the LT1.
    significant or no, another thing Cadillac is super proud of is the 50/50 weigh distribution. the ATS goes from 50/50 to 51/49 when you go up to the v6. if you look under the hood of a turbo ATS the engine is way in the back of the bay, the v6 fills it more and the current v8 will probably fill it completely. my point is the weight is shifting forward and increasing , this will have an effect on the handling which is another high mark of the ATS

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Of course you don't buy it, it was your post I countered. But you haven't helped your case.

    Sticking with the Northstar wasn't a good move. The two cars most responsible for putting Cadillac back in a good light are the first- and second-gen CTS-Vs. Cadillac's bacon was saved by the smallblock V8.

    LT1 is a blunt instrument? What exactly makes it blunt and the TTV6 sharp? You're just making stuff up now.

    The CTS-V doesn't fit your "tightly aligning themselves with BMW products" theory. At all. The new Vsport doesn't really line up with the M-Sport either, because Vsport has an engine. See, Cadillac is not just copying someone else's recipe, they're putting their own twist on things -- and they're better for it.

    Your conspiracy theory about the ZL1 and ZR1 doesn't hold up either. Occam's Razor -- it was simpler for GM to do nothing more to the CTS-V than to revisit it in its tiny-volume twilight. And you should know better than to think LSA and LS9 are "the same motor." They are not.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    There's nothing blunt about a small block. It's power band is exceptionally smooth in the LSA, and I haven't seen any legitimate car journalist 'complain' that the car lacked an additional 3 cams. Quite the opposite infat, car-rags love the rumble of an LS. The only complains about it are purely psychological in nature.

    It's a simple design, but it's also lightweight, compact, and the design is so mature it has a fraction of the problems 'high tech' engines have. The C6R, you know, one of the most successful manufacture backed teams for the past few years, the one that defeats Ferrari, Porsche and aston in the GT races and at le mans? Powered by an LS.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    ... the cast in integrated exhaust manifold and composite intake manifold, this means the turbos directly bolt to the engine, the turbo is it's own downpipe.

    http://cnettv.cnet.com/2014-cadillac...-50143706.html
    ...
    I love this design feature. But, you have to wonder how much this limits the ability to change the turbo in any way to further increase performance. Just dreaming here now, but next step might be putting six individual turbos (one on each exhaust port) on a V6 like having an ignition coil for each cylinder when there was only one for the whole motor in the past. Would be near instant response. I know: plumbing nightmare ... unless the plumbing was accomplished with a casting. Hm-m ...

    Maybe I just having been paying attention, but that was news to me that the trans can do a double upshift when conditions permit. Great idea in an eight-speed AT.
    '05 CTS-V, Maggie, Kooks, Hotchkis, Ground Control, Corsa, B&M, DSS/Hendrix, Full 3M Clear Bra, Autovation, V Headrests, CTS Console, STS-V 55w Fogs, Black Vette FRCs, Specter Werkes, Katech LS9 Clutch, SS Brake Lines, Heavymetals U-Turn Fuel Line Eliminator, Momo Combat Evo Shift Knob, Wldwhl Clear Sidemarkers, Linea Corse LC855 Wheels or OEM wheels w/'06-'07 Center Caps, plus a couple more. 472 RWHP/411 RWTQ (Mustang Dyno).

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Like that new CTS Sport! He did say there would be a new CTS Coupe, I had heard they wouldn't have one. Can't wait to see it. I traded in an '11 CTS coupe for the ATS because the coupe was so heavy, seems they took 300# out of it- very nice! Now that 3.6TT engine paired with a manual trans could get me back into a CTS coupe.

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    I love this design feature. But, you have to wonder how much this limits the ability to change the turbo in any way to further increase performance.
    not very.

    Eliminator style turbochargers(ie OEM fitment with larger compressor housings) are very popular, and the housing is practicly identical to a T3/T4 Flange to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er
    I love this design feature. But, you have to wonder how much this limits the ability to change the turbo in any way to further increase performance. Just dreaming here now, but next step might be putting six individual turbos (one on each exhaust port) on a V6 like having an ignition coil for each cylinder when there was only one for the whole motor in the past. Would be near instant response. I know: plumbing nightmare ... unless the plumbing was accomplished with a casting. Hm-m ...
    Maybe we could add a supercharger to those 6 turbochargers. That would be "windy city." Seriously, I believe that the turbocharger-supercharger combo was used in some aircraft engines during WWII. So much for "modern technology."

    Jud

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    I think in WWII they called turbos "turbosuperchargers." Were there aircraft engines back then that actually used both exhaust-driven and crank-driven boost?

    As for a turbo on each cylinder, doesn't that subject the impellor to greater pressure variation, even a vacuum during valve overlap on intake? Turbo lag might even be worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx
    I think in WWII they called turbos "turbosuperchargers." Were there aircraft engines back then that actually used both exhaust-driven and crank-driven boost?
    A little light reading before bedtime: http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm. I haven't read it yet, but it should answer your question. I'm pretty sure that the Rolls Royce Merlin V-12 used in the P-51 Mustang was supercharged, but don't know if was a combo or not. BTW, I wish that I could afford to restore and fly a P-51D; marvelous fighter.

    Jud

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    Re: Cadillac ATS-V is probably getting a twin turbo 3.6 liter V6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    And you should know better than to think LSA and LS9 are "the same motor." They are not.
    same motor, tweaked bolt ons:

    tweaks are

    LS9-ti connecting rods
    LSA-forged steel

    LS9-dry sump oil system
    LSA-traditional with baffles in oil pan

    LS9-2.3 liter supercharger & 9.1:1 compression
    LSA-1.9 liter & 9.0:1 compression

    This is why tuners have been loving the LSA it was built for more power and dialed down

    LT1 is a blunt instrument? What exactly makes it blunt and the TTV6 sharp? You're just making stuff up now.
    it's a turn a phrase, and you seem to take offense to it, any instrument can be a fun one and I think both are great but it seems to me getting similiar work/ability from a smaller machine could be described as sharper.....

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