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Cadillac ATS Technical Discussion Forum Discussion, 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling... in Cadillac ATS Discussion Forums; Originally Posted by jae7373 Exactly, Stupid algorithm or not I've had the same experience in neutral. How stupid depends on ...
  1. #61
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by jae7373 View Post
    Exactly, Stupid algorithm or not I've had the same experience in neutral.
    How stupid depends on the odds the motor won't die anyway if the conditions used by the algorithm are happening. But it sounds stupid on the face of it. While I am very interested academically in the existence and working of the algorithm, the actual stalling almost certainly isn't caused by the algorithm but rather false input to the algorithm. I'm basing that on the fact that the stalling keeps happening to the same people who swear its happening outside the parameters of said algorithm AND the fact that it isn't happening to everyone else despite their car using the same algorithm.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    I think you are using the same faulty logic as Muffin. Okay you and at least one other owner talked to CS and still have the problem. But there are also documented cases in these forums of people who have talked to CS and had theirs fixed or even replaced. So it is ridiculous to advise anyone else to NOT talk to CS. All car makers rely on their dealers to diagnose and advise. Not all dealers are as competent and not all are as professional as the next one. Maybe you once had a neighbor you didn't get along with but thought another was great. Same principal. CS can SOMETIMES be what gets your case moved from the dealer's "I don't care" or "customer's a loud mouth jerk" pile to the "give it our all" pile.

    That said, I would also switch dealers very quickly if the one I've been going to isn't cutting it, no matter what their excuse is.
    I understand what you're saying, and I apologize for being a bit brazen with my suggestion.

    However in this case, all they have done for me is told me to go to another dealer (duh!) and that was about it.
    Seriously!.. They also got me in touch with a customer care person from GM, and do you know what she did?
    She re-iterated what the dealer already told me and said that I have the option to go to another dealer.
    Super helpful!

    To where they help in other situations, great I'm glad that they're here for those issues, they have been no help to me with this issue and that is what I was referring to within this thread.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by bungee91 View Post
    I understand what you're saying, and I apologize for being a bit brazen with my suggestion.

    However in this case, all they have done for me is told me to go to another dealer (duh!) and that was about it.
    Seriously!.. They also got me in touch with a customer care person from GM, and do you know what she did?
    She re-iterated what the dealer already told me and said that I have the option to go to another dealer.
    Super helpful!
    I agree that CS is no help for some people in some situations. But you won't know for sure until you try. Since dealers are independent businesses, Cadillac can not force them to do anything for a specific customer. I'm sure GM can penalize a dealer who doesn't live up to their contract even to the point of removing them as dealers, but that won't happen over a single incident. I think some bad dealers are just more adept at working the system to maintain reasonable doubt as to their guilt. Unfortunately that may involve blaming the customer. When that happens, there probably isn't anything CS can do other than nudging a customer to another dealer. That's not how it should be and its very bad for GM and the customer when a problem doesn't get fixed. It definitely leads that customer (and potential customers sitting on the fence) to switch to a brand that has a little better control over or incentives for the dealers to do things right.

    I hope you can find a better dealer and get your car fixed or replaced. It should be a lot easier and faster than you and some others have had to endure.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    I agree that CS is no help for some people in some situations. But you won't know for sure until you try. Since dealers are independent businesses, Cadillac can not force them to do anything for a specific customer. I'm sure GM can penalize a dealer who doesn't live up to their contract even to the point of removing them as dealers, but that won't happen over a single incident. I think some bad dealers are just more adept at working the system to maintain reasonable doubt as to their guilt. Unfortunately that may involve blaming the customer. When that happens, there probably isn't anything CS can do other than nudging a customer to another dealer. That's not how it should be and its very bad for GM and the customer when a problem doesn't get fixed. It definitely leads that customer (and potential customers sitting on the fence) to switch to a brand that has a little better control over or incentives for the dealers to do things right.

    I hope you can find a better dealer and get your car fixed or replaced. It should be a lot easier and faster than you and some others have had to endure.
    Well said, I agree.

    I actually think my dealer was really good initially. They attempted to replicate it plenty, had the car for about a week and I allowed the service manager to drive it daily, flashed the ECM again in case of a partial bad write or something, etc... and never was able to replicate it themselves.
    They were also quick to get the data logger and then it was just waiting on GM engineering for a recommendation.
    It is GM engineering that is telling the dealer I am stalling the car, and of course who do you think they're going to believe?.. Rightfully so GM engineering, but it doesn't help me any.

    I seriously believe GM has no idea of what is causing this, and that being the case with no good data to come up with a solution they just act as if there is no issue at all. Seriously unfortunate for myself and others in this same situation!
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by bungee91 View Post
    Well said, I agree.

    I actually think my dealer was really good initially. They attempted to replicate it plenty, had the car for about a week and I allowed the service manager to drive it daily, flashed the ECM again in case of a partial bad write or something, etc... and never was able to replicate it themselves.
    They were also quick to get the data logger and then it was just waiting on GM engineering for a recommendation.
    It is GM engineering that is telling the dealer I am stalling the car, and of course who do you think they're going to believe?.. Rightfully so GM engineering, but it doesn't help me any.

    I seriously believe GM has no idea of what is causing this, and that being the case with no good data to come up with a solution they just act as if there is no issue at all. Seriously unfortunate for myself and others in this same situation!
    Can someone find out just what in the log "proves" it's driver error? Because if it isn't driver error, it could be that some input to the log is bad. If Cadillac believes the issue is closed, the customer has to live with it, get rid of it, or show them their log (or interpretation of it) is wrong. "We" can't do the latter without knowing what the witness for the prosecution is saying.

    Also, I urge everyone who has had their ATS stall, to file a report online at NHTSA. They take notice and action on relatively few complaints because they know a very small percentage of car owners even know there is an NHTSA. I have to believe the automakers take NHTSA inquiries and investigations very seriously.

    NHTSA vehicle safety complaint: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/Vehicl...nt/index.xhtml
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    Maybe all of us out here just don't know how to drive Cadillacs. That has to be it because I've been driving manuals for 15 years and none of them stalled while moving. Clearly, Cadillac needs to train us all on how to drive their cars because they obviously behave different than any other vehicle I've ever owned and/or driven.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by jae7373 View Post
    Maybe all of us out here just don't know how to drive Cadillacs. That has to be it because I've been driving manuals for 15 years and none of them stalled while moving. Clearly, Cadillac needs to train us all on how to drive their cars because they obviously behave different than any other vehicle I've ever owned and/or driven.
    As smiley averse as I am, that scared me for a second. I recall when Ford sold a bunch of Mustangs that would sporadically refuse to go into any gear (it nearly killed the owner of Boss302 #1). The most common reaction from other owners (fan boys) was that it actually was the driver's fault. Ford, seeing that reaction, realized they could do the same and avoid fixing them.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Hello fellow ATS owners, I too am a victim of the stalling issue, or should I say, MAJOR SAFETY FAULT ISSUE!?! I got my ATS over Labor Day weekend and immediately experienced the stalling, more frequently than most of you have posted. The dealer has had my ATS twice trying to replicate the stalling, with no luck. I finally installed a camera and documented the stalling and posted 2 videos on YouTube of it happening to me. This is my first Cadillac ever and I am so dismayed with it! My dealer has said I will be allowed to trade it out, or Lemon Law it, but I haven't heard from GM yet. In case it is helpful to your cases, the videos are at www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEWlSuHshpI, and www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMz_ykPnLA. I really think the car is beautiful and fun/fast to drive, but I will not tolerate such a defect on such an expensive investment. It is too bad electrical advances also bring hard-to-find problems at times. My family's safety is PRICELESS, and GM better do the right thing for the owners of these defective models, and get busy finding the fix to it, so we can eventually enjoy these cars in the future.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    Can someone find out just what in the log "proves" it's driver error? Because if it isn't driver error, it could be that some input to the log is bad. If Cadillac believes the issue is closed, the customer has to live with it, get rid of it, or show them their log (or interpretation of it) is wrong. "We" can't do the latter without knowing what the witness for the prosecution is saying.
    I PM'd the GM customer service rep here to obtain the logs, I didn't get a message back from them however I did receive a call from a GM customer service person from their support line.
    She stated to me that I may request the logs from the dealer who I worked with, however they are in no way obligated to give me the logs if they choose not to, and that it was their property.
    I of course responded with a, BULLSHIT if you're to say something happened but not show me the proof there's something wrong here.
    I explained to her that I'd prefer to not work with this dealer anymore, and that I'd like the logs that were sent to the GM engineers at the tech center who were the ones who told the dealer I was stalling the vehicle (same logs).
    She said she couldn't do this, and it is up to my dealer if they choose to share the logs with me.
    I don't plan to follow up with getting these logs anytime soon.

    I'm told they're basing my stalling out on clutch disengagement happening at too low of an RPM.
    I said BS, I'm in neutral it doesn't matter, prove it... They said they couldn't do anything, that was all.

    I will fill out the NHTSA form in the coming days, and will follow up here.
    I'd like GM to do what's right and fix this.
    If there are 5 or more of us here with this same issue I'd think that alone would be enough for an investigation to begin.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Stalled again last night, this time the person behind of me got upset. I didn't even know the car stalled and the light turned green...as I went to accelerate.. nope, nothing. I am glad the person behind me did not rear end me, but they accelerated and went around me at a high rate of speed while throwing in a nice long honk.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by bungee91 View Post
    I PM'd the GM customer service rep here to obtain the logs, I didn't get a message back from them however I did receive a call from a GM customer service person from their support line.
    She stated to me that I may request the logs from the dealer who I worked with, however they are in no way obligated to give me the logs if they choose not to, and that it was their property.
    I of course responded with a, BULLSHIT if you're to say something happened but not show me the proof there's something wrong here.
    I explained to her that I'd prefer to not work with this dealer anymore, and that I'd like the logs that were sent to the GM engineers at the tech center who were the ones who told the dealer I was stalling the vehicle (same logs).
    She said she couldn't do this, and it is up to my dealer if they choose to share the logs with me.
    I don't plan to follow up with getting these logs anytime soon.

    I'm told they're basing my stalling out on clutch disengagement happening at too low of an RPM.
    I said BS, I'm in neutral it doesn't matter, prove it... They said they couldn't do anything, that was all.

    I will fill out the NHTSA form in the coming days, and will follow up here.
    I'd like GM to do what's right and fix this.
    If there are 5 or more of us here with this same issue I'd think that alone would be enough for an investigation to begin.
    Yeah its BS but it could be boilerplate BS. Do you doubt the dealer will willingly turn the logs over?

    BTW, if they don't, I would definitely switch dealers for that alone. Tell the next closest one (with a good rep) your problem and that you need the log if they get the same results and if they are agreeable they can have all your business.

    And Customer Service, YOU need to bump this up your chain of command and tell them your procedures don't fit this situation and someone above you who isn't bound by them needs to get involved. Yeah, your boss wants you to handle things, but the facts prove you can't and believe me, (S)he would rather hear it now before it really hits the fan. You can NOT tell people you won't fix THEIR car based on something THEIR car told you but, oh yeah, we can't tell you what YOUR car told us.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    Yeah its BS but it could be boilerplate BS. Do you doubt the dealer will willingly turn the logs over?

    BTW, if they don't, I would definitely switch dealers for that alone. Tell the next closest one (with a good rep) your problem and that you need the log if they get the same results and if they are agreeable they can have all your business.

    And Customer Service, YOU need to bump this up your chain of command and tell them your procedures don't fit this situation and someone above you who isn't bound by them needs to get involved. Yeah, your boss wants you to handle things, but the facts prove you can't and believe me, (S)he would rather hear it now before it really hits the fan. You can NOT tell people you won't fix THEIR car based on something THEIR car told you but, oh yeah, we can't tell you what YOUR car told us.
    If we only had the emoticon with the tumbleweeds going by (that'd be my expected response from them).

    Mine stalled this morning on the way to work.
    In a setting of 2 stop lights I got stopped at both. At the first the idle was a little high at around 1,200 RPM, but was running fine.
    At the next one when coasting to a stop it apparently stalled, didn't realize until I needed to go. This was a very short stop, so I'm sure it stalled while coasting to a stop.

    Mine is normally good for a week or two, and then it will happen just like this morning.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Mine stalled again last night coasting to stop.
    I'm tweeting #ATSstall to @Cadillac @CadillacCustSvc @NHTSAgov when it happens
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by jae7373 View Post
    Mine stalled again last night coasting to stop.
    I'm tweeting #ATSstall to @Cadillac @CadillacCustSvc @NHTSAgov when it happens
    You still have to file a report at NHTSA for them to care. Without a VIN and a way to contact you any complaint could just be Alan Mulally having some fun.
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    Re: 2013 2.0T 6spd stalling...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    You still have to file a report at NHTSA for them to care. Without a VIN and a way to contact you any complaint could just be Alan Mulally having some fun.
    You are correct. Everyone, it takes 5 minuets to file a complaint. I filed a complaint to NHTSA a month or so ago my ODI number is 10537906. I called NHTSA back when I filed my complaint and they said that they look for trends before they take it any further. Hopefully if everyone files there's enough info to make them pay attention.
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