Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback
cadillac ats forums cadillac ats forums
CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 12 of 12
Like Tree8Likes
  • 1 Post By pissedoffwookiee
  • 2 Post By roadpie4u
  • 1 Post By Nite_Hawk
  • 1 Post By matthewmugar
  • 2 Post By pissedoffwookiee
  • 1 Post By matthewmugar
Cadillac ATS Technical Discussion Forum Discussion, Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback in Cadillac ATS Discussion Forums; ...
  1. #1
    matthewmugar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): ATS Luxury 2.0 Turbo
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    35
    Posts
    36

    Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    HI guys,

    I am in dire need of your feedback. I purchased a set of staggered wheels, basically the 18” polished forged aluminum upgrade for the Luxury Model. Do you guys think it will make a noticeable difference on handling? I don’t go to the track everyday nor do I race it out. This car is my everyday driver. I just loved the look of it on the ATS. Any input could help me out a lot. Also I have to buy tires, and was looking into the Korean tire market…cheap and efficient and decent? Any thoughts?

  2. Remove Advertisements
    CadillacForums.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    pissedoffwookiee's Avatar
    pissedoffwookiee is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): 14 ATS Premium 2.0T Phantom Gray, 13 SRX Luxury Carbon Black
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,249

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Here are my pluses and minus':

    the look is awesome (plus)

    inability to rotate tires (minus)

    increased tire costs due to inability to spread wear patterns across tires through rotation (minus)

    car has initial understeer that transitions to oversteer, staggard will slow down this transition and make steering the rear end with throttle inputs a bit more controllable and fine tuned (plus)

    the look is awesome (plus)

    and lastly the look is awesome (plus)
    Rozay619 likes this.

  4. #3
    GJB's Avatar
    GJB
    GJB is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): 2013 ATS4 3.6 Premium
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    896

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Matt, since you already purchased them I guess you just want tire feedback?

  5. #4
    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): ATS 2.0 M6 FE3
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    279

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    If it were me, I would have just gone full width on all 4 corners. I like the stagger, but the lack of ability to rotate them is annoying. Also, you'd open up a LOT of options by having the same tire width front and rear and trying not to find a matching set, but hey! Here we are!

    Do you have a set of non-staggered wheels as well? Are you in the snowbelt and intend to keep them as "winter wheels" with dedicated snow tires? Do you even live where there's snow? I kept my stock offsets for summer tires and got a set of dedicated 18" winter wheels/tires and I think thats the best choice. For me, I prefer a dedicated summer and winter set. Sadly I want to get rid of the stock 18s because I like the wheels I got for winter better even though they were super cheap.

    Anyway, if I were to go to Tirerack, that'd give the following "low ball price tires":

    For Summer:
    Kumho Ecsta LW Sport (280 AA A) $580/set
    Sumitomo HTR Z III (300 AA A) $520/set
    Dunlop Direzza DZ101 (300 A A) $522/set

    For all-season:
    General G-Max AS-03 (480 A A) $580/set
    Kumho Ecsta 4X (420 AA A) $572/set

    Between the two All-Seasons, a friend of mine had the precurser to the 4X on his car and liked them. The ride was okay, but they never gave him the winter performance he was hoping for with all seasons. I can't comment on the Generals. If you wanted all seasons (looking at the pictures of the tread patterns) I'd go with the Kumhos. A LOT of turbo Talon/Eclipse/Laser guys back in the day loved the Kumhos, as does the Supra community. They offer a pretty good (and balanced) cheap tire.

    On the three summer tires, a buddy with a 300ZX has a set of the Kumho Sport (different size though) and they worked out okay for him. He got them as the actual tread width on those was wider than the competition and he wanted them to look a little wider on the wheel like a muscle car - and here we see that for the 225s the Kumho's are 8.5" compared to the others at 8.1" - so it is true here as well. He felt that steering scrub wasn't as good, but his car is older and doesn't have the same setup as ours by any stretch. Our electric steering is pretty different...

    I have a set of the Sumitomo HTR Z's on my Camaro (275/40r17 and 315/35/17) and I've been super happy with them since the day I got them. They wear pretty fast and are decently loud and traction has always been okay, but they haven't protected the lip of the ZR1 wheels on my car from getting chewed up a little. I don't know all of the differences to the HTR Z III, but the treadblocks are similar and the wear rating has improved. I know others with Sumitomo tires and like Kumho's, they're cheap, but good for cheap. They, like almost all the other options, lack sidewall blocks to protect the lip of the wheel...

    The one thing I notice about all of those options though, the Dunlops are the only ones to have a sidewall block to protect the lip of the wheel, and I like that a lot on a tire that's so low profile because you may hit a deep pothole someday and actually scrape the wheel - I've seen it happen.



    What's more is a quick google search found these threads:
    http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...ighlight=dz101
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...-splitter.html
    (there are more, the BMW guys seem to like em!)

    For the sake of the rims, I'd give the Dunlops a shot, and as a second option I'd go with the Sumitomos as I've dealt with their product and customer service before and never felt cheated. As the BMW guys seem to like the Dunlops, and its cheap as well, you can't go wrong either way.
    AirBusPilot and matthewmugar like this.

  6. #5
    matthewmugar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): ATS Luxury 2.0 Turbo
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    35
    Posts
    36

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    Here are my pluses and minus':

    the look is awesome (plus)

    inability to rotate tires (minus)

    increased tire costs due to inability to spread wear patterns across tires through rotation (minus)

    car has initial understeer that transitions to oversteer, staggard will slow down this transition and make steering the rear end with throttle inputs a bit more controllable and fine tuned (plus)

    the look is awesome (plus)

    and lastly the look is awesome (plus)
    PissedoffWookie,

    thanks for the input. Can you explain :

    car has initial understeer that transitions to oversteer, staggard will slow down this transition and make steering the rear end with throttle inputs a bit more controllable and fine tuned (plus)?

    do you think it will be more dangerous or to an untrained person like I, will i even notice anything? going from runflats to new tires with bigger rims should be different. I just want to make sure I made a good choice.

    ----------

    Hey GJB,
    Actually I could send them back for the 4 regular rims. My rim guy is cool with that. He specializes in all GM wheels, he is a re seller of overstock...but after buying them mostly for looks...I didnt realize that there might be an issue with performance...do you think it will be something that will affect ride quality and enjoyment that the average joe would notice?

    Quote Originally Posted by GJB View Post
    Matt, since you already purchased them I guess you just want tire feedback?

  7. #6
    matthewmugar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): ATS Luxury 2.0 Turbo
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    35
    Posts
    36

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Wow, thank you so much for all the input. I live in Los Angeles so Winter and Summer tires may not be too much of an issue. i do appreciate the lip over the wheel to protect the wheel. I will def consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by roadpie4u View Post
    If it were me, I would have just gone full width on all 4 corners. I like the stagger, but the lack of ability to rotate them is annoying. Also, you'd open up a LOT of options by having the same tire width front and rear and trying not to find a matching set, but hey! Here we are!

    Do you have a set of non-staggered wheels as well? Are you in the snowbelt and intend to keep them as "winter wheels" with dedicated snow tires? Do you even live where there's snow? I kept my stock offsets for summer tires and got a set of dedicated 18" winter wheels/tires and I think thats the best choice. For me, I prefer a dedicated summer and winter set. Sadly I want to get rid of the stock 18s because I like the wheels I got for winter better even though they were super cheap.

    Anyway, if I were to go to Tirerack, that'd give the following "low ball price tires":

    For Summer:
    Kumho Ecsta LW Sport (280 AA A) $580/set
    Sumitomo HTR Z III (300 AA A) $520/set
    Dunlop Direzza DZ101 (300 A A) $522/set

    For all-season:
    General G-Max AS-03 (480 A A) $580/set
    Kumho Ecsta 4X (420 AA A) $572/set

    Between the two All-Seasons, a friend of mine had the precurser to the 4X on his car and liked them. The ride was okay, but they never gave him the winter performance he was hoping for with all seasons. I can't comment on the Generals. If you wanted all seasons (looking at the pictures of the tread patterns) I'd go with the Kumhos. A LOT of turbo Talon/Eclipse/Laser guys back in the day loved the Kumhos, as does the Supra community. They offer a pretty good (and balanced) cheap tire.

    On the three summer tires, a buddy with a 300ZX has a set of the Kumho Sport (different size though) and they worked out okay for him. He got them as the actual tread width on those was wider than the competition and he wanted them to look a little wider on the wheel like a muscle car - and here we see that for the 225s the Kumho's are 8.5" compared to the others at 8.1" - so it is true here as well. He felt that steering scrub wasn't as good, but his car is older and doesn't have the same setup as ours by any stretch. Our electric steering is pretty different...

    I have a set of the Sumitomo HTR Z's on my Camaro (275/40r17 and 315/35/17) and I've been super happy with them since the day I got them. They wear pretty fast and are decently loud and traction has always been okay, but they haven't protected the lip of the ZR1 wheels on my car from getting chewed up a little. I don't know all of the differences to the HTR Z III, but the treadblocks are similar and the wear rating has improved. I know others with Sumitomo tires and like Kumho's, they're cheap, but good for cheap. They, like almost all the other options, lack sidewall blocks to protect the lip of the wheel...

    The one thing I notice about all of those options though, the Dunlops are the only ones to have a sidewall block to protect the lip of the wheel, and I like that a lot on a tire that's so low profile because you may hit a deep pothole someday and actually scrape the wheel - I've seen it happen.



    What's more is a quick google search found these threads:
    http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...ighlight=dz101
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...-splitter.html
    (there are more, the BMW guys seem to like em!)

    For the sake of the rims, I'd give the Dunlops a shot, and as a second option I'd go with the Sumitomos as I've dealt with their product and customer service before and never felt cheated. As the BMW guys seem to like the Dunlops, and its cheap as well, you can't go wrong either way.

  8. #7
    Nite_Hawk is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): ATS 2.0T
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Vegas, nv
    Posts
    98

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    for the understeer to oversteer, a normal person wouldn't even notice unless driving like an ass on the street/track. Runflats handle way different than normal tires, for one, they have a lot stiffer sidewall in case of flat. I'd get the staggered setup. You have RWD performance sedan, make it handle that way. On the BMW M3 coupes, they have same size wheels all around, the sedans, have the staggered setup, to deal with extra weight. Helps with their handling as well. Plus, it looks down right awesome!
    matthewmugar likes this.

  9. #8
    matthewmugar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): ATS Luxury 2.0 Turbo
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    35
    Posts
    36

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Hell Yah...thanks for the input

    Quote Originally Posted by Nite_Hawk View Post
    for the understeer to oversteer, a normal person wouldn't even notice unless driving like an ass on the street/track. Runflats handle way different than normal tires, for one, they have a lot stiffer sidewall in case of flat. I'd get the staggered setup. You have RWD performance sedan, make it handle that way. On the BMW M3 coupes, they have same size wheels all around, the sedans, have the staggered setup, to deal with extra weight. Helps with their handling as well. Plus, it looks down right awesome!
    Nite_Hawk likes this.

  10. #9
    pissedoffwookiee's Avatar
    pissedoffwookiee is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): 14 ATS Premium 2.0T Phantom Gray, 13 SRX Luxury Carbon Black
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,249

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by matthewmugar View Post
    PissedoffWookie,

    thanks for the input. Can you explain :

    car has initial understeer that transitions to oversteer, staggard will slow down this transition and make steering the rear end with throttle inputs a bit more controllable and fine tuned (plus)?

    do you think it will be more dangerous or to an untrained person like I, will i even notice anything? going from runflats to new tires with bigger rims should be different. I just want to make sure I made a good choice.

    ----------

    Hey GJB,
    Actually I could send them back for the 4 regular rims. My rim guy is cool with that. He specializes in all GM wheels, he is a re seller of overstock...but after buying them mostly for looks...I didnt realize that there might be an issue with performance...do you think it will be something that will affect ride quality and enjoyment that the average joe would notice?
    no worries about the wheels, the car will drive easier and be safer with staggered wheels here's why:

    one of the reasons FWD is so prevalent in cars in addition to more efficient packaging is that they are extremely biased toward understeer this is the condition of having less traction in the front than the rear during a corner, causing the car to slide nose first, this is safer for less experienced drivers. the main culprit causing this is a nose heavy car (with the entire drivetrain over the front wheels) and the front wheels doing double duty providing steering (which uses grip) and propulsion (which uses grip)

    the ATS on the other hand is a rear wheel drive platform, so its drivetrain is spread across the car front to back, in the engine compartment the engine is biased rearward (almost a front mid engine, but not quite), the cabin position is biased rearward and little touches like having the battery in the rear all contribute to it's near perfect 50/50 weight distribution (51/49 for the v6). this plus the separation of propulsion (using rear grip) and steering (using front grip) makes for an extremely balanced car. this plus great tuning and engineering, all combines to make the car in the hands of a competent driver have the ability to dance gracefully at the limit of adhesion.

    so at initial turn in as the body transfers weight to the outside and the front tires tires take a set and begin to bite you'll experience understeer. once the outside tires are fully loaded this understeer will transition to neutral, and possibly oversteer the condition of having less traction in the rear causing the rear end to slide out, this is less safe than understeer for less experienced drivers because they might lack the skills to contain this resulting in a spin out, but a competent driver can use both the steering wheel and throttle to adjust the attitude of the car mid corner.

    the staggered wheels will be more safe because the added rubber will add a bit more adhesion to the rear, thus increasing the cars tendency to understeer, you will have to be more deliberate with the car to bring on oversteer.

    and Nite_Hawk is correct, playing with the limits of adhesion is usually a bad idea on the streets, in fact he said ass.......don't be an ass...lol

  11. #10
    GJB's Avatar
    GJB
    GJB is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): 2013 ATS4 3.6 Premium
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    896

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by matthewmugar View Post
    [/COLOR]Hey GJB,
    Actually I could send them back for the 4 regular rims. My rim guy is cool with that. He specializes in all GM wheels, he is a re seller of overstock...but after buying them mostly for looks...I didnt realize that there might be an issue with performance...do you think it will be something that will affect ride quality and enjoyment that the average joe would notice?
    Matt I can only tell you what I decided. I chose 18" same width all around in an all season tire. High quality all season will handle anything I'm capable of and provide me what I need on my daily driver. I've had summer tires before and they wear down faster and rotation is not an option with different front/rear and snow time...forgetaboutit. So the overall cost will be lower if that is something you are considering. My thought is if you notice than your not an average Joe so the question is are you???

  12. #11
    pissedoffwookiee's Avatar
    pissedoffwookiee is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): 14 ATS Premium 2.0T Phantom Gray, 13 SRX Luxury Carbon Black
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    1,249

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by GJB View Post
    Matt I can only tell you what I decided. I chose 18" same width all around in an all season tire. High quality all season will handle anything I'm capable of and provide me what I need on my daily driver. I've had summer tires before and they wear down faster and rotation is not an option with different front/rear and snow time...forgetaboutit. So the overall cost will be lower if that is something you are considering. My thought is if you notice than your not an average Joe so the question is are you???
    lol.... this sounds like you're channeling Dirty Harry "so the question is are you???......PUNK!!!!
    GJB and matthewmugar like this.

  13. #12
    matthewmugar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): ATS Luxury 2.0 Turbo
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Age
    35
    Posts
    36

    Re: Staggered wheels vs non staggered need feedback

    I think i will def go with all season tires. I am leaning toward Kumho 4x and going to look at the Dunlops and Bridgestone's as well. Personally, I am not an aggressive driver, but i do love to open up on certain roads here in LA...the 18 by Big Bear, PCH, Angeles Crest and parts of Mulholland. But for the most part this is an every day driver. I am planning to sell the rims later since I will be keeping the stocks that came with em. To answer your question, I havent had a chance to open it up yet...still breaking her in and havent had more than 3 weeks yet. Thanks for your input. I will def keep into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJB View Post
    Matt I can only tell you what I decided. I chose 18" same width all around in an all season tire. High quality all season will handle anything I'm capable of and provide me what I need on my daily driver. I've had summer tires before and they wear down faster and rotation is not an option with different front/rear and snow time...forgetaboutit. So the overall cost will be lower if that is something you are considering. My thought is if you notice than your not an average Joe so the question is are you???


    ----------

    P.O.W. You just made my day..thanks for taking time to explain that...I feel much better bout my choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by pissedoffwookiee View Post
    no worries about the wheels, the car will drive easier and be safer with staggered wheels here's why:

    one of the reasons FWD is so prevalent in cars in addition to more efficient packaging is that they are extremely biased toward understeer this is the condition of having less traction in the front than the rear during a corner, causing the car to slide nose first, this is safer for less experienced drivers. the main culprit causing this is a nose heavy car (with the entire drivetrain over the front wheels) and the front wheels doing double duty providing steering (which uses grip) and propulsion (which uses grip)

    the ATS on the other hand is a rear wheel drive platform, so its drivetrain is spread across the car front to back, in the engine compartment the engine is biased rearward (almost a front mid engine, but not quite), the cabin position is biased rearward and little touches like having the battery in the rear all contribute to it's near perfect 50/50 weight distribution (51/49 for the v6). this plus the separation of propulsion (using rear grip) and steering (using front grip) makes for an extremely balanced car. this plus great tuning and engineering, all combines to make the car in the hands of a competent driver have the ability to dance gracefully at the limit of adhesion.

    so at initial turn in as the body transfers weight to the outside and the front tires tires take a set and begin to bite you'll experience understeer. once the outside tires are fully loaded this understeer will transition to neutral, and possibly oversteer the condition of having less traction in the rear causing the rear end to slide out, this is less safe than understeer for less experienced drivers because they might lack the skills to contain this resulting in a spin out, but a competent driver can use both the steering wheel and throttle to adjust the attitude of the car mid corner.

    the staggered wheels will be more safe because the added rubber will add a bit more adhesion to the rear, thus increasing the cars tendency to understeer, you will have to be more deliberate with the car to bring on oversteer.

    and Nite_Hawk is correct, playing with the limits of adhesion is usually a bad idea on the streets, in fact he said ass.......don't be an ass...lol
    GJB likes this.

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting