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  1. #16
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    Thumbs down There are other options for tunes out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    The main reason I hadnít bought a tune already
    The main reason you haven't bought a tune yet is because your quite professional sounding post is exactly a promotional piece for KPE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    the lack of decent dyno results for a similar car from any of the tuners.
    What was wrong with the dyno results that either Trifecta or VTuner presented?

    Here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhcdXv6aNWA


    I see far higher gains with the ability to turn the tune on and off without reflashing the vehicle as their main selling features, with lower pricing and faster delivery to date.

    $350 from Trifecta buys you a tune and you get to keep the hardware which also diagnoses OBD faults and datalogs with Trifecta, not your $350 and another $200 on top of that to keep the hardware.

    If you want to return the car back to stock, your true cost is now no less than $550 plus shipping.

    The Trifecta tune has also been ran on hundreds of vehicles, and many thousands in other makes, how many ATS LTG's has KPE tuned?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    Evolution has a huge shop
    Yes, but Evolution Motorsport is NOT the tune provider, and has nothing to do with delivering the tune for KPE.

    EDS, another company, is in fact responsible for these tunes, that KPE is merely reselling, and EDS has been known for a dozen or more engine failures in the US, China (Buick Turbo Regals), and elsewhere in the world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    a plethora of Porsches and the odd Mclaren
    Oh, I do not discount that Evolution Motorsport has a wide and diverse customer base and do fairly good work, but then again, they charge Porsche and Mclaren prices. A Porsche turbo upgrade when I called in to ask pricing was quoted at $20,000. A brief search on these forums alone shows many other skilled and reputable shops which are retailing hardware for much more reasonable prices, D3 Cadillac, BNR, Lingenfelter, Pfadt Racing, Hennessey Performance, VTuner, and even a few foreign companies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    KPE are partners with a company in Germany who is one of the best Bosch tuners in the world. You may be aware that some of GMs recent turbo engines used a Bosch system.
    Bosch. The ATS LTG uses a Delphi controller. NOT Bosch. And yes, GM's "recent" turbo vehicles that use Bosch controllers are all european model vehicles, which use not only a VERY different engine and powertrain platform, but do not resemble ANYTHING close to what the ATS uses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    the understanding I would report everything, whether good or bad AND only if the car was dynoed
    So what can you tell us about things that you don't like about your "new" tune? Its good AND bad right? As in you can not tell us anything, ANYTHING wrong with your car at all?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    The dyno sheet and video are at the end
    This dyno sheet is useless because it does not show:

    1. What is the Air/Fuel Ratio? Are you leaning the vehicle out to achieve this number?

    2. What is the engine timing like during the runs?

    3. What fuel are you using? Race gas? And can you PROVE it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    slightly more peak torque than their auto trans tune because the auto trans is not as strong as the manual and it would be pushing the
    Do you mean that they can't get their transmission tune right vs either Pfadt who has their 160MPH+ quarter mile runs or Lingenfelter/VTuner with their 290WHP+ intake and exhaust tunes or Trifecta with their 285AWHP+ E85 completely stock vehicle tunes? Each and every one of them having NEVER had a single problem with ANY of their vehicles? And you're saying that your "tooner" knows better than ALL of them combined for the automatic transmission?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    they are pretty big in the supercharged Camaro V6 world
    Does your tune adapt to different octanes and different elevations?

    And speaking of Camaro V6's, KPE is NOT IPF, and i have to ask, has IPF solved their idle hunting issues and knocking issues in the camaro V6 cars with their hardware or software yet? Or the pulley bearing failures? I'm sure the KPE tunes are much better longevity wise vs IPF, being that they are tuning a stock vehicle, but please do NOT compare them against IPF or EDS, whom are NOT forum sponsors here on the forums.


    Thanks for listening.
    RX Performance Products/RevXtreme.com 941-721-1826

  2. #17
    donavo is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    ^was a good read....lol. kinda harsh but a good collection of information

  3. #18
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    Question Dyno graph questions.

    After looking at your dyno graph I have more questions:

    First of which, with your KPE tune, did you end up LOSING POWER at ~6300 RPM vs stock with the KPE tune?




    Second, from here, it says that the redline on the LTG engine is 7000 RPM:

    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...vs-ltg-116017/

    Why did the dyno pull end at ~6375 RPM? Did it lose too much power vs stock past ~6300 RPM?

    Also, the dyno graph says IPF on it, IPF isn't KPE, is KPE just reselling an IPF tune in this case?

    I can say that I have seen the KPE CTS intake in person, and it is very well made, and I have nothing but great things to say about KPE hardware released so far, the two intakes they've made. But IPF is not a forum sponsor and not related with KPE. This dyno graph really needs show things more clearly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    Lastly, peak power and torque numbers are not as important as the ďarea under the curveĒ. Thatís particularly important with turbo engines. Peak numbers are just that: a peak at a particular RPM. If you are accelerating you have to go thru a wide range of RPMs. A high peak HP loses to a lower one if the lower peak motor has a better average thru the RPMs.
    I disagree.

    Higher peak numbers will get you to the quarter mile faster.

    Peak numbers are also what will accelerate your car when you are applying full throttle.

    Dyno graphs can show us peak power, under full throttle conditions, and unless you can give us an accurate part throttle dyno graph, peak numbers are all we have to gauge how effective a tune would be.

    And we have 6 gears in two of the best transmissions available today (both the manual and auto) to keep up in the high RPM range if we apply a lot of throttle, where the power actually is produced, where after every shift you're still at not far away from redline on the next gear because the vehicle is still accelerating.

    So "peak numbers" are what will move the car when you NEED it to move. Not a "wide range of RPMs" unless you don't know how to shift with a manual box when shooting for the best acceleration times or if your automatic transmission tune isn't letting you get the most out of your engine.

    Therefore I disagree.
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  4. #19
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    Re: There are other options for tunes out there.

    As for sounding professional, my mamma warned me if I went to high school I would be ridiculed by those that didn’t for being literate. If you can hear me Momma, I’m sorry for not listening.

    Let me see if I got this straight: you say I can’t be believed because I’m a shill for KPE, but you also want me to educate you by answering questions?

    It’s bad enough that you ask questions that were answered in the original post but you misunderstood so much I don’t have any reason to think you will understand if something is said again or in a different way.

    Example:

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    The ATS LTG uses a Delphi controller. NOT Bosch. And yes, GM's "recent" turbo vehicles that use Bosch controllers are all european model vehicles, which use not only a VERY different engine and powertrain platform, but do not resemble ANYTHING close to what the ATS uses.
    That was in response to my statement:

    Evolution and KPE are partners with a company in Germany who is one of the best Bosch tuners in the world. You may be aware that some of GMs recent turbo engines used a Bosch system. They are also experts on the GM system used in the ATS and in GM’s other cars now that the Bosch system has been phased out.
    So I hope you can understand why nobody with any sense would get into a debate with someone who can’t understand what the other party says.

    You asked up front what was wrong with the BNR dyno video. If any question didn’t need answering (again), it’s that one. It’s been discussed in detail. The graph shows the base run putting out ridiculously low numbers. The reasons have been documented in the forums. And even if the numbers were legit, the tuned numbers were not running gas. I hope you aren't saying that most people shopping for tunes plan to run alchohol fuel so BNR doesn't need to post gasoline dyno runs!.

    In addition to dumb questions and not comprehending what you read, you make giant leaps to reach conclusions that are either irrelevant or the opposite direction from reality. Then throw in the 50+% that is off topic.

    I’m not saying everything you posted is bogus or off topic but there is so much that is, it’s not worth trying to sift out what isn’t. And definetly not worth trying to fix the errors. Post’s like yours were the inspiration for this cartoon:



    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    After looking at your dyno graph I have more questions:

    First of which, with your KPE tune, did you end up LOSING POWER at ~6300 RPM vs stock with the KPE tune?




    Second, from here, it says that the redline on the LTG engine is 7000 RPM:

    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...vs-ltg-116017/

    Why did the dyno pull end at ~6375 RPM? Did it lose too much power vs stock past ~6300 RPM?

    Also, the dyno graph says IPF on it, IPF isn't KPE, is KPE just reselling an IPF tune in this case?

    I can say that I have seen the KPE CTS intake in person, and it is very well made, and I have nothing but great things to say about KPE hardware released so far, the two intakes they've made. But IPF is not a forum sponsor and not related with KPE. This dyno graph really needs show things more clearly.




    I disagree.

    Higher peak numbers will get you to the quarter mile faster.

    Peak numbers are also what will accelerate your car when you are applying full throttle.

    Dyno graphs can show us peak power, under full throttle conditions, and unless you can give us an accurate part throttle dyno graph, peak numbers are all we have to gauge how effective a tune would be.

    And we have 6 gears in two of the best transmissions available today (both the manual and auto) to keep up in the high RPM range if we apply a lot of throttle, where the power actually is produced, where after every shift you're still at not far away from redline on the next gear because the vehicle is still accelerating.

    So "peak numbers" are what will move the car when you NEED it to move. Not a "wide range of RPMs" unless you don't know how to shift with a manual box when shooting for the best acceleration times or if your automatic transmission tune isn't letting you get the most out of your engine.

    Therefore I disagree.
    Don't think I don't love you man, but you just can NOT be that ignorant. I mean you can't be that ignorant and THINK you are an expert. Sigh. Maybe someone else has the time and energy to explain things.
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  5. #20
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    $350 from Trifecta buys you a tune and you get to keep the hardware which also diagnoses OBD faults and datalogs with Trifecta, not your $350 and another $200 on top of that to keep the hardware.
    O RLY?
    http://store.badnewsracing.net/Trife...rged_p_60.html

    There is no need to send in your car's computer, but you will need a cable to flash the tune to the car. This cable can be purchased on this site or you can contact us before purchasing and we can rent you a cable with a security deposit.
    a) $150 for the red cable
    b) $315 for the tune($400 advertised)
    $465-550

    What was wrong with the dyno results that either Trifecta or VTuner presented?
    a) that dyno was on E85 with an AWD automatic.
    b) that dyno doesn't have AFR's
    c) that dyno was also run to 6.3-6.5K

    but you wouldn't know this, because you clearly spoke before understanding what you're complaining about.
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  6. #21
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    Your professionalism is second to none my friend. If you are attempting to gain business by trashing ours you will surly find the end results are less than pleasing. Desperate people take desperate measures...and this is NOT how KPE, IPF, EDS and EVOMS does business. Good luck with all your endeavors and may God bless you.


    IPF Tuning - KPE Products
    888.222.4291 Office
    Sales@KPE-Products.com
    www.KPE-Products.com
    www.IPF-Tuning.com


  7. #22
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    Question Re: There are other options for tunes out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    It’s been discussed in detail. The graph shows the base run putting out ridiculously low numbers.
    From what I understand they had an AWD automatic car, which WILL put out far lower baseline numbers. But you dispute their gains and question their dyno graph, but when your own dyno graph is questioned, you quote your mommy.

    Boo Hoo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    The reasons have been documented in the forums.
    By you, and now I am "documenting" your dyno graph and asking questions, the same as you did, is that too much to ask for?

    And you are not answering any of my questions. What, can those questions not be asked?

    Why is your dyno graph showing a LOSS OF POWER after ~6300 RPM?

    As in the car would be SLOWER.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    So I hope you can understand why nobody with any sense would get into a debate with someone who can’t understand what the other party says.
    Again, I have asked a few questions, the same type of questions you have asked in other people's threads. Are you understanding what I'm saying?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    Evolution has a huge shop
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    a plethora of Porsches and the odd Mclaren
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    giant leaps to reach conclusions that are either irrelevant or the opposite direction from reality
    I have the exact same point vs you. How is 80 percent of the promotional piece (the first post of this thread) relevant to the Cadillac ATS?

    You bring up a bunch of other makes and models that are distinctly NOT Cadillac, and then you claim "expertise", here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    They are also experts on the GM system used in the ATS
    How are they experts on the GM powertrain system in the ATS? Because they've only tuned ONE? Your car? Or because they've tuned a number of Bosch systems, which are completely different?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    Don't think I don't love you man, but you just can NOT be that ignorant. I mean you can't be that ignorant and THINK you are an expert.
    There probably needs to be some more love going around. I've only asked questions, of which you have not answered, only calling me names for asking questions that ANY perspective customer would ask. Please keep this post professional, as you are detracting away from KPE's work with your off-topic post.

    Lets keep the discussion to the merits of the tune, of which KPE is reselling from IPF.


    So again,

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
    The dyno sheet and video are at the end
    This dyno sheet is useless because it does not show:

    1. What is the Air/Fuel Ratio? Are you leaning the vehicle out to achieve this number?

    2. What is the engine timing like during the runs?

    3. with your KPE tune, did you end up LOSING POWER at ~6300 RPM vs stock with the KPE tune?




    Second, from here, it says that the redline on the LTG engine is 7000 RPM:

    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...vs-ltg-116017/

    Why did the dyno pull end at ~6375 RPM? Did it lose too much power vs stock past ~6300 RPM?

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KPE View Post
    Your professionalism is second to none my friend. If you are attempting to gain business by trashing ours you will surly find the end results are less than pleasing. Desperate people take desperate measures...and this is NOT how KPE, IPF, EDS and EVOMS does business. Good luck with all your endeavors
    Can you not just answer my questions that anyone would ask about the tune? I trust your work and your company, but please keep this discussion ON-TOPIC and just answer the questions. (The originator of the thread, which was a supposed "review" of the product.)


    Quote Originally Posted by KPE View Post
    If you ... you will surly find the end results are less than pleasing. Desperate people take desperate measures...
    Is that a THREAT?

    Please keep this discussion professional. I will say this to everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by KPE View Post
    and this is NOT how KPE, IPF, EDS and EVOMS does business.
    I recognize and respect the work of KPE, as a forum sponsor. Threats or not, how the rest of those businesses conduct themselves, as NON-SPONSORS, they should speak for themselves. (Read: Each Independently become forum sponsors.)


    Quote Originally Posted by KPE View Post
    Good luck with all your endeavors
    You too. I hope we can still keep this thread amicable and informative.

    Thanks for listening.
    RX Performance Products/RevXtreme.com 941-721-1826

  8. #23
    bravnik is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    One thing you guys need to keep in mind is that a Mustang Dyno will ALWAYS show lower numbers than a DynoJet. 20% lower on average. So the numbers provided are actually pretty damn good for that type of situation and heat.

  9. #24
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    From my armchair (and experience) I'd say the loss of power is at top end likely due to heatsoak of running the compressor past its optimal points and an undersized intercooler/exhaust/intake - we know the stock setup has limitations and it's interesting to see that we're finding them.

    More importantly, I don't care who does the tune. Trifecta/BNR or KPE or anyone else. I'm glad multiple companies are working on this engine and we're getting more and more aftermarket.

    I know you cant compare graphs done on different dynos/days/cars/operators - so it is impossible to say which tuner does better. More importantly, Trifecta/BNR has proven time and again that they tweak customer tunes based on their individual datalogs (KPE, do you offer the same service?) so you can't compare the two.

    So where does this leave us? We can say with certainty every tuner is smacking into the effective limit of the turbo setup - and it gets downright gorram interesting to see how they go about getting to the next step. I always hoped a tuned ATS would be good for 300hp/330tq crank - about the same as a GMPP tuned LNF - and anything much past that would require modification.

    I think that's the bigger discussion point...
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  10. #25
    miguelius is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    I think too much of this "dialogue" between SC2150 and Hoosier Daddy is on a personal, insulting level. Okay, guys, have a difference of opinion, but don't trash the other person. One of the things I like about this forum is the absence of vindictive or condescending posts, which are way too common on many forums. I don't think that Hoosier Daddy was doing a "promotional" piece for KPE or that SC2150 "cannot understand what the other party says." Come on, guys, chill out and scale back the insulting rhetoric!

  11. #26
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    KPE saw I wished I had taken a picture of the front of the car hooked up to their dyno air system, so they sent me one they took:

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  12. #27
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    Quote Originally Posted by KPE View Post
    Your professionalism is second to none my friend. If you are attempting to gain business by trashing ours you will surly find the end results are less than pleasing. Desperate people take desperate measures...and this is NOT how KPE, IPF, EDS and EVOMS does business. Good luck with all your endeavors and may God bless you.
    Hi!

    I am in albuquerque and if you are in arizona, the drive is only 6 hours. Albuquerque doesn't have much for good tuning shops, but I would really like to keep my GM warranty.

    How much does this tune gain me in 0-60 and the 1/4 mile times?

    Would this tune shorten the life of my engine?

    Does this tune void my warranty?

    And how much does your exhaust costs and do you have videos of what it sounds like?

  13. #28
    roadpie4u is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    Quote Originally Posted by HighElevation View Post
    Hi!

    I am in albuquerque and if you are in arizona, the drive is only 6 hours. Albuquerque doesn't have much for good tuning shops, but I would really like to keep my GM warranty.

    How much does this tune gain me in 0-60 and the 1/4 mile times?

    Would this tune shorten the life of my engine?

    Does this tune void my warranty?

    And how much does your exhaust costs and do you have videos of what it sounds like?
    It will shorten the lifespan of the engine - how much is anyone's guess. Don't expect the engine to be as solid at 150,000 miles though - Increasing the HP/L of an engine has an exponential effect on longevity. It will also void your warranty straight out.

  14. #29
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    Quote Originally Posted by HighElevation View Post
    Hi!

    I am in albuquerque and if you are in arizona, the drive is only 6 hours. Albuquerque doesn't have much for good tuning shops, but I would really like to keep my GM warranty.

    How much does this tune gain me in 0-60 and the 1/4 mile times?

    Would this tune shorten the life of my engine?

    Does this tune void my warranty?

    And how much does your exhaust costs and do you have videos of what it sounds like?
    You can get tunes from KPE, B&R and others via the internet, although you will need some hardware to install any which obviously will have to be shipped.

    The only tuner that I know who has posted times is in the northeast. Those time may have been on alcohol rather than gas. If they are, they won't tell you what you would get on gas. I always forget their name but you can search for tune in the ATS forums. If ATS tunes are like tunes I've seen for other model cars that I've seen dynos and time slips for, there is probably little difference between power increases and acceleration. The only tuner I have seen legitimate dyno graphs for is KPE.

    KPE did NOT do a custom tune for me. It was their standard tune for an RWD manual transmission ATS 2.0T. I insisted on a dyno for two reasons. One is because no tuners had posted any meaningful dyno graphs yet. I basically didn't know if ATS tuners didn't think customer cared (which seems a bit insulting) or if they were worried the real gains would not help sales. The other is I wanted to make sure the tune was safe regarding A/F ratios, etc.. If someone else had already done that and posted, I would have just installed the tune and been done with it.

    Yes all tunes will shorten the life of the engine. Just like driving fast without a tune will shorten the life of the engine or driving in Arizona or Maine instead of San Diego will shorten the life of an engine or tracking the car with or without a tune will shorten the life of an engine, or a lot of stop and start driving will shorten the life of an engine.

    Yes, all tunes will have an effect on the standard warranty. Legally, if a modification causes a failure, the repair is not covered by warranty. Legally, they would have to prove the modification caused the failure but its not a standard of beyond reasonable doubt and you would loose if your car had a failure that was caused or likely caused by some parameter a tune does or can change. You would also probably lose for a gray area unless you paid a lawyer more than the repair costs. Not specifically what you asked but ANY modification, runs a risk of having to fight for warranty repairs. I've seen cosmetic mods used as an excuse to deny a mechanical warranty repair. The car owner won but it was no pic nic for them.

    FWIW, in the S197 Mustang 5.0 world, some tuners misunderstood some things and initially sold tunes that did result in ring land failures in cylinder #8. Ford got fed up and issued a TSB instructing dealers to routinely test customers' cars for signs of a tune or past tune and flagging the VIN as no longer having an engine warranty. One major tune company responded with their own warranty against cylinder 8 failures. To my knowledge nobody has submitted a claim.

    So the short answer is a tune will not affect the warranty on the rest of the car, but if the drive train blows up and GM is willing to say it was caused by added stress from or other problem with the tune, they won't have to repair the damage.

    And although you didn't ask, GM CAN tell if any tune was in use or had been in use, even if you flash back to the factory tune. It may not be something a GM dealer can determine because they don't have the hardware/software but the manufacturer can tell.

    It's possible that dealers will someday sell tunes that do not invalidate the factory or provide their own warranty. They did that for some past GM turbo cars. Anyone not wanting to risk a 3rd party tune could wait and see. If I had to guess, I don't see Cadillac doing it for the 2.0T because (a) a tune is not on the shopping list of most ATS customers, and (2) it would steal sales from 3.6s and piss off previous 3.6 buyers. I hope I'm wrong.

  15. #30
    mikesul is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: KPE ATS tune

    The tuner in the NE is VTuner. He has run a 0-60 in 5.1 and a 13.1 quarter mile.

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