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ATS rear window shattered

10K views 78 replies 20 participants last post by  rsingl 
#1 ·
Started my car this morning and turned on the rear defrost. Went back outside to leave and when i shut the door the whole window shattered. Temp this morning was 25f but yesterday it was 60. Obviously this is a flaw with the rear glass and now im stuck either paying my $500 deductible or $607 out of pocket.
 
#36 ·
I beg to differ of the safety issue. All vehicle glass is subject to the same DOT regulations. No one has ever shown that an aftermarket or non-OEM glass was less safe than OEM. I would prefer OEM but if you check with your dealer you may be surprised to learn they are using Safelite for front and rear glass. They just don't do enough glass to warrant the technical skills needed to do a proper repair on a consistent basis. The one exception is you have an acoustical windshield, (look at the lower right corner of the windshield for the word Acoustical), I was told by Safelite that they have to get that glass from an OEM supplier.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Auto manufactures do NOT make their glass. All glass must meet or EXCEED DOT regs no matter where it comes from. Windshields are laminated and side glass is not. Went thru this exercise when I took my EMT/Paramedic training and we did extractions of patients out of junk cars.

OBTW - an ill fitted window will shatter when it is exposed to quick temp changes. We see that here in Texas during the summer heat.

Update - I would ONLY use after market glass as a last resort... IE - my dime! Any insurance claims I ALWAYS use OEM... their dime!
 
#38 ·
C "T" ess said:
I beg to differ of the safety issue. All vehicle glass is subject to the same DOT regulations. No one has ever shown that an aftermarket or non-OEM glass was less safe than OEM. I would prefer OEM but if you check with your dealer you may be surprised to learn they are using Safelite for front and rear glass. They just don't do enough glass to warrant the technical skills needed to do a proper repair on a consistent basis. The one exception is you have an acoustical windshield, (look at the lower right corner of the windshield for the word Acoustical), I was told by Safelite that they have to get that glass from an OEM supplier.
You're the only person who's said anything about safety.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a dealership chooses Safelite over another company. They're cheaper.

It's your car and your choice what goes on/in it, not the dealership.
 
#39 ·
Just who the hell is carwindshields.info and what makes what they say gospel? There's enough BS in the first link posted that makes me doubt anything they say. All I know is that Safelite and Guardian are both large global worldwide companies that make their own glass and have no facilities in China.

Bill
 
#43 · (Edited)
One thing is certain, Safelite is not all that: It has some very poor consumer ratings in their overall handling of cracks, windshield repair and replacement according to consumer affairs. http://www.glassusa.com/News.asp?nid=11 Also this: http://www.complaintsboard.com/bycompany/safelite-auto-glass-a40552.html But just like any company, there are plenty of satisfied customers as well. So it really comes down to this: Aftermarket glass is not AGRSS Certified and it can be very hard to tell how well it was made because there are no set standards that had to be followed; in addition, it isn't subject to crash testing requirements. Only minimum requirements. There are literally thousands of websites and links that bear out the fact there are big differences between OEE and OEM windshields; carwindshields.info (a blog out of Arizona) is just one of them. They all tell the same tale. AAA is a reputable supporter of OEM windshields. https://www.glass.org/press/073107_AAA.htm Thickness, side view clarity or distortion, Rear View Mirror Brackets And Sensors, tint, etc. are all variations inherent in replacement type windshields.

Yes, car manufacturers use an OEM glass company. The glass manufacturer and vehicle maker create a unique mold and a unique molding/firing process to produce the OEM windshield (Original Equipment Manufacturer). The parts are installed when the vehicle is assembled at the vehicle makers factory. Non-OEM auto glass manufacturers make copies of OEM auto glass parts. These copies are not the same as OEM. These copies have to vary slightly from the OEM part due to the fact that OEM parts are patented and the designs are protected and trademarked. Millions of dollars in R&D go into the manufacture of OEM versus OEE knock offs. The windshield (and rear window) helps support the roof of the vehicle in a rollover so you and your passengers will not be crushed. For about a $100 or so difference, would you take a chance in these two main windows failing? For my money, it's OEM every time.
 
#45 · (Edited)
You live in a dream world. AGRSS is a two-bit outfit that for a fee will try to give a two-bit glass company some class. Safelite and Guardian are each subsidiaries of global worldwide companies doing business in dozens of countries around the world. They make their own glass to DOT and ISO 9001 standards and if necessary or practical source from OEM. Guardian is in fact an OEM in many parts of the industry. Fuyao is the the #2 glass maker in the world and a OEM supplier to dozens of car brands from Audi, Bentley, BMW, GM including Cadillac, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, Jaguar, Toyota, Volkswagen and others.

Bill
 
#44 · (Edited)
No your evading the question by bring up something else . Now lets have the answer, just who the hell is carwindshields.info and what makes what they say gospel?

What I said was: "All I know is that Safelite and Guardian are both large global worldwide companies that make their own glass and have no facilities in China." As far as Fuyao goes, you don't want to go there....trust me.

So it's in your court answer the question.

Bill
 
#46 · (Edited)
SFVetteman said:
No your evading the question by bring up something else . Now lets have the answer, just who the hell is carwindshields.info and what makes what they say gospel? What I said was: "All I know is that Safelite and Guardian are both large global worldwide companies that make their own glass and have no facilities in China." As far as Fuyao goes, you don't want to go there....trust me. So it's in your court answer the question. Bill
To answer your question; car windshields.info is apparently a site that dispenses automotive advice, and I don't know what makes what they say gospel. You still haven't responded to my request that you point out what part/s of the first link are BS and explain why they are BS.

I pointed out Safelite's business relationship with Fuyao in response to your statements/inferences that Safelite doesn't use Chinese made glass, plain and simple. Safelite advertises OEE replacement glass not OEM, and the fact that they purchase aftermarket glass from Fuyao clearly indicates that Fuayo does/did produce OEE glass in China and sells/sold OEE glass to Safelite for resale. In one the articles I cited one of Safelite's senior Vice Presidents (Mr. Lanno) specifically acknowledges purchasing glass products from Fuayo's Chinese plant. You can attempt now to obfuscate your intent, but to anyone who has read your posts it is clear that you meant Safelite doesn't/hasn't used Chinese made glass.

Twice now you have challenged my posts and both times you have been proven wrong.

The last time, you made claims without any proof and failed to respond to a request for evidence to back up your claim.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-xts-forum/817809-gas-octane-2014-xts.html

And in another thread recently you made another unsubstantiated claim that was quickly rebuffed by another member who said you were making it up. Again no response.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forum.../816945-manual-transmission-availability.html

While it is clear, based on many of your other posts, that you have a good deal of automotive knowledge, it is also clear to me that what you don't know you cover up with speculation disguised as fact and hyperbole. It is for that reason I will consider your future posts with a measure of skepticism.
 
#50 ·
The last thing I want to do is step into the arguments of others so I won’t comment on whose glass is superior. I want to add a note about Chinese glass manufacturers. During the ‘80’s and ‘90’s some Chinese glass makers got into trouble in the US for dumping safety glass on the US market. That’s the glass with wire reinforcement in it. The stock values of US safety glass makers fell and many were purchased by those Chinese companies. While the Chinese companies got caught by the US government and fined, they ended up owning a large chunk of US glass manufacturing capacity. I don’t know if Fuyao is one of those companies but it’s possible that some of their glass is made in the USA.
 
#51 ·
You still haven't responded to my request that you point out what part/s of the first link are BS and explain why they are BS.

Major OEM windshield brands are Saint-Gobain Sekurit (SGS), Carlite, Pilkington, PPG, Mopar, and AP Tech.

Left out Fuyao and failed to mention that starting in 2014, AP Tech entered into a license agreement with Safelite Glass Corp., allowing Safelite to manufacture, distribute and sell replacement windshields under the AP Technoglass brand. Saint-Gobain Sekurit (SGS), like Fuyao has manufacturing plants in China.

The last time, you made claims without any proof and failed to respond to a request for evidence to back up your claim.

In 2004 representatives of BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota got together to specify what makes a good fuel. Using recommendations from the Worldwide Fuel Charter, a global committee of automakers and engine manufacturers, they established a proprietary standard for a class of gasoline called "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline The new standard required increased levels of detergents, and restricted metallic content. Volkswagen/Audi joined the group of automakers in 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

And in another thread recently you made another unsubstantiated claim that was quickly rebuffed by another member who said you were making it up. Again no response.

The Tremec 6060 has a maximum torque rating of 560 lb-ft and the LT4 is rated at 640 lb-ft in the CTS-V. That's from gmpowertrain.

I don't just make this stuff up, I do my work and if you do some then you can find the same info. This stuff is fairly well known in the first place.

Bill
 
#52 · (Edited)
SFVetteman said:
You still haven't responded to my request that you point out what part/s of the first link are BS and explain why they are BS. Major OEM windshield brands are Saint-Gobain Sekurit (SGS), Carlite, Pilkington, PPG, Mopar, and AP Tech. Left out Fuyao and failed to mention that starting in 2014, AP Tech entered into a license agreement with Safelite Glass Corp., allowing Safelite to manufacture, distribute and sell replacement windshields under the AP Technoglass brand. Saint-Gobain Sekurit (SGS), like Fuyao has manufacturing plants in China. The last time, you made claims without any proof and failed to respond to a request for evidence to back up your claim. In 2004 representatives of BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota got together to specify what makes a good fuel. Using recommendations from the Worldwide Fuel Charter, a global committee of automakers and engine manufacturers, they established a proprietary standard for a class of gasoline called "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline The new standard required increased levels of detergents, and restricted metallic content. Volkswagen/Audi joined the group of automakers in 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline And in another thread recently you made another unsubstantiated claim that was quickly rebuffed by another member who said you were making it up. Again no response. The Tremec 6060 has a maximum torque rating of 560 lb-ft and the LT4 is rated at 640 lb-ft in the CTS-V. That's from gmpowertrain. I don't just make this stuff up, I do my work and if you do some then you can find the same info. This stuff is fairly well known in the first place. Bill
Because the link left out Fuyao and didn't explain AP Tech's licensing agreement with Safelite you call the whole article BS?

That's a really weak answer.

And still nothing to say about Safelite selling Chinese made glass?


You're again trying to deviate away from my questions from the last thread. I know how the Top Tier program started. That wasn't what I asked you to back up with proof. You said you know that none of the automakers involved makes a dime from the Top Tier program and I asked how you know that.

Got proof of that?


The LT4 produces 630 lb-ft. http://m.cadillac.com/v-series/cts-v-sedan/performance.html#.Vrup20U8LCQ Of course that's at the flywheel.
At the wheel, a bit less. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forum...7377-2016-cadillac-cts-v-hennessey-stock.html

Like BigJim said, there are hundreds (or more) V2's running around making V3 HP/TQ numbers (and higher) with no problems.
 
#53 ·
GM Powertrain says 630, so I mispoke when I said 640. GM Powertrain says 560 lb-ft for the 6060 used with the 555hp LSA.

What I said was, "Most, if not all the car companies not just GM, wanted a top tier spec to improve reliability....that's about as definitive as you'll get and they don't get a dime doing it." Nobody paid them to come up with a top tier spec and they don't get a dime from anyone that chooses to meet or exceed the spec and not get licensed. They did it because the EPA didn't in spite of requests from automakers. If you have anything that shows otherwise, then bring it on.

The whole focus of the carwindshields.info piece was to make Safelite and Guardian out as third rate companies pedaling junk. You know it, I know it. If you had looked into Safelite and Guardian, you would have known that it is BS.

You can nitpick me or just do the work...Whatever. Seems like you're more interested in arguing than anything else.
 
#55 ·
SFVetteman said:
GM Powertrain says 630, so I mispoke when I said 640. GM Powertrain says 560 lb-ft for the 6060 used with the 555hp LSA. What I said was, "Most, if not all the car companies not just GM, wanted a top tier spec to improve reliability....that's about as definitive as you'll get and they don't get a dime doing it." Nobody paid them to come up with a top tier spec and they don't get a dime from anyone that chooses to meet or exceed the spec and not get licensed. They did it because the EPA didn't in spite of requests from automakers. If you have anything that shows otherwise, then bring it on. The whole focus of the carwindshields.info piece was to make Safelite and Guardian out as third rate companies pedaling junk. You know it, I know it. If you had looked into Safelite and Guardian, you would have known that it is BS. You can nitpick me or just do the work...Whatever. Seems like you're more interested in arguing than anything else.
The LSA in the V2 has a rated output of 556 HP, and 551 lb-ft.

I have not made any claims about whether or not any of the automakers involved with the Top Tier program receive any form of compensation from oil companies seeking a licensing agreement, because I have no knowledge of what goes into the licensing agreement.
You claimed that the automakers don't get a dime from companies they license under the Top Tier program. The question was simple, how do you know?

My intent in posting the link to the car windshields.info was simply to shed a little light on an aftermarket auto glass company, and their products, period. The article didn't make Safelite or Guardian look like third rate companies. It stated facts about aftermarket auto glass products that consumers may not already know. None of which are untrue.

I have no interest in nit picking or a desire to argue with you. If I am wrong I will admit it, accept the new information and move on. If I am incorrectly challenged I respond and do not back down.
 
#56 ·
When it comes to OEM glass, if you buy it from a dealer, with the Cadillac part number, do you not get the same part they put on the car during production? If not, this would be the first time that I know of where the two didn't match. When I look here - http://www.gmpartsdirect.co/auto-parts/2013/cadillac/ats/premium-trim/3-6l-v6-flex-engine/body-cat/glass-windshield-scat

It is pretty specific on the actual part number you need, also that a certain part number is needed for the front glass and HUD. Makes me think they aren't just buying one aftermarket solution and selling it to everyone. Also makes me think if I don't buy a "HUD windshield" there is a good chance the HUD won't work the same as it used to.

Here's the part number for the rear glass - http://www.gmpartsdirect.co/cadillac/ats/22983076/2013-year/premium-trim/3-6l-v6-flex-engine/body-cat/glass-and-hardware-back-scat/?part_name=back-glass. Sometimes the "not available" means you need to call them.

For the bigger problem with Cadillac and warranty, depending on what they say might be worth trying to cut a deal with them, like selling the glass for 1/2 price or something that doesn't cost them a lot (they end up selling the glass at cost and/or contributing to the installation). I am guessing that in general broken glass is not warranty as they are broken all of the time for reasons not associated with how it was made and installed.
 
#59 ·
I suspect they aren't convinced it was caused by a defect, which isn't the exact same as calling you a liar. I suspect if you are going to court or arbitration it will come down to which side presents the most plausible guess why it failed since neither side has proof. GM may believe the most likely cause was some impact and present that, not as an absolute but most likely based on what they see. Your burden will be to convince the court/arbitrator that it was more likely a defect of some sort.
 
#61 ·
Ultimately, I would agree but an attorney contacting them threatening a suit might well move them to reconsider because if they loose in court they might have to pay legal fees as well as replacing the window costing them considerably more.

Definitely worth talking to an attorney first.

Bill
 
#65 ·
In the bumper to bumper warranty the entire vehicle is specifically specified as covered except routine maintenance: Cadillac backs your new vehicle with its no deductible, Bumper-to-Bumper Limited Warranty. The entire vehicle is warranted for repairs, including parts and labor, to correct any defects in materials or workmanship for 4-years or 50,000-miles, whichever comes first (except routine maintenance). The warranty covers towing to the nearest Cadillac dealership, and there is no deductible for warranty repairs during the warranty period. The warranty transfers automatically with vehicle ownership during the warranty period.

Bill
 
#66 ·
It really isnt just about the money. It is the fact that when someone pays 40k for a vehicle, which to me is a large sum of money, is not given the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this. I am a Cleveland firefighter and I know just how difficult it can be to break a vehicle window. Sometimes a hit with an axe will not break a rear window.....
A demand of payment letter was sent to GM headquarters today and in 10 days I will file with small claims. I appreciate the help from everybody and will update.
 
#68 ·
That's the kind of first hand experience that will undermine a theory of impact damage in small claims.

I hope the dealer/GM can't force you out of small claims. I found it hard to believe, but recently read posts that said in some jurisdictions small claims would only hear cases if BOTH parties agree to it. If either insists on "regular" court, small claims won't do the case. Like I said, it sounds unbelievable since it seems to negate one of the best things about small claims, namely that someone can have a day in court without paying a lawyer.
 
#70 ·
SchaffnerFab, There needs to be more consumers like you who stand on principle and demand that GM/Cadillac live up to their warranty promise.
It appears that you are doing all the right things, and are receiving some good advice from forum members here. Best of luck, and don't give in.
 
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