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Cadillac ATS General Discussion Forum Discussion, Is this revival failing? in Cadillac ATS Discussion Forums; Apparently sales from Cadillac have been polar opposite as to what they were last year. ATS & XTS sales are ...
  1. #1
    DonnyATS is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Is this revival failing?

    Apparently sales from Cadillac have been polar opposite as to what they were last
    year. ATS & XTS sales are both down, and it just seems like no one wants or feels
    the need to cross shop, especially those German lux customers. I'm not trying to
    be negative. God knows I love Cadillacs & I really want them to excel. But why do I feel like this whole brand revival is falling flat on its face? Anyone think things will
    turn around for our awesome American luxury brand?
    arjuna7603 likes this.

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    jhatfie is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    I think one of the primary problems is that they have priced themselves into a corner. If they want to succeed they need to price themselves well below their cheapest German competitors. A max loaded ATS Premium AWD w/ 3.6L should MSRP for well under $50k. A maxxed out Audi A4 Prestige with S-Line, driver assist and Sport packages is $49.5k MSRP while a premium AWD 2.0T ATS with cold weather and driver assist is about $51k. The ATS needs to be 10% cheaper from the start. Same goes for the CTS, it is a excellent car, but is overpriced until Cadillac has gained the prestige that would allow them to inflate pricing. Their current inflated pricing structure makes discounting mandatory which in turn hurts depreciation which in turn hurts any possible image of value. I am not way saying that the cars are not worth what they are asking, but if they want market share, they need to undercut the competitors.
    mechevar, exbagboy and arjuna7603 like this.

  4. #3
    listrats is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    You get alot more in the loaded ATS then the A4...So hence why it would cost more.

  5. #4
    ChevyRules is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    You need to sell the car, not the deal. Cadillac's issue is image, not price.

    Also, I just built an A4 fully loaded and got $50,500..... And $500 isn't going to sway most people if they like the ATS better than the A4.
    ryannel2003 likes this.

  6. #5
    jhatfie is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by listrats View Post
    You get alot more in the loaded ATS then the A4...So hence why it would cost more.
    I would be interested what the lots of extra I can get in an ATS. Coming from a A4 Prestige S-Line to the ATS, I think the only things additional are the HUD and magnetic shocks which do not even come on the AWD ATS.

    Doesn't image and price go hand in hand? All the people I know could not figure out why I traded in my Audi for a Cadillac thinking that the A4 was superior in about every way, including my wife who was a hard sell. I think to the average consumer Cadillac has a long way to go to make them believe that they are worth the same or more money than other luxury brands. Just look at depreciation which is indicative of a perception of value and image, my two year old A4 which was $47k new, traded in for $33500. How much does a one year old 2013 ATS trade in for that originally MSRP'd for $47k? $30-32k?

    I am not trying to bash Cadillac, I love my ATS and I know the brand is every bit as good as what the other luxury makers offer. I am just saying that most people when presented with two like items at the same price, often will go with the one that has better brand image. If one of those similar items is cheaper, then that will sway a portion of the buyers over which hopefully over time builds brand loyalty and increases a footprint in the market which in turn builds awareness and image.

    Use my recent ATS purchase as an example, I was really torn between the ATS and the Lexus IS350 F Sport. Both MSRP'd for about the same are at the same tier of car, however I negotiated my ATS down around $10k off, where with the Lexus I was only able to negotiate $4500 off swaying my decision to give the ATS a go. The Lexus likely would have been the better "buy" as in 3 years it will still be worth 60% of it's MSRP, while the ATS will likely be worth 45-50%, but the cheaper intro price at least got me to give Cadillac my money. Which I am glad I did.
    myATS likes this.

  7. #6
    ChevyRules is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    My concern with offering bargain basement prices is people are going to get used to that and then scoff when Cadillac starts to charge more. All you have to do is read the CTS forums and see 2nd gen owners waiting for bigger incentives before going for the 3rd gen. You have a customer base knowing the CTS is a good car and likes the 3rd gen decent enough. Cadillac raises the price and instead of going, " Yeah its worth it now". They are waiting for big incentives to be put on the hood. That isn't a mindset you want your customer base to get in. Cadillac will be lumped into the Acura/Lincoln luxury perception, not the German/Lexus perception. I have no problem having the Cadillac's be cheaper than the competition, but not so cheap as where a fully loaded ATS 3.6 Premium is well below $50,000.....

  8. #7
    carpenter is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhatfie View Post
    How much does a one year old 2013 ATS trade in for that originally MSRP'd for $47k? $30-32k?
    that's more like retail now.

  9. #8
    sgr88 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jhatfie View Post
    I think one of the primary problems is that they have priced themselves into a corner. If they want to succeed they need to price themselves well below their cheapest German competitors. A max loaded ATS Premium AWD w/ 3.6L should MSRP for well under $50k. A maxxed out Audi A4 Prestige with S-Line, driver assist and Sport packages is $49.5k MSRP while a premium AWD 2.0T ATS with cold weather and driver assist is about $51k. The ATS needs to be 10% cheaper from the start. Same goes for the CTS, it is a excellent car, but is overpriced until Cadillac has gained the prestige that would allow them to inflate pricing. Their current inflated pricing structure makes discounting mandatory which in turn hurts depreciation which in turn hurts any possible image of value. I am not way saying that the cars are not worth what they are asking, but if they want market share, they need to undercut the competitors.
    I have made this point over and over in these forums. I am still completely convinced that it's the pricing that is hurting Cadillac.

    It is no secret that when Cadillac designed the ATS, they had the BMW3 series directly in their line of sight. The BMW3 series has (and still is) the king of the hill in that segment, far outselling any of the competition. So I give Cadillac kudos for going after the BWM3. But because the ATS is a new car to this segment, trying to dethrone the reigning champ... you simply can't build a new model of a car (no matter who the manufacturer is) and attempt to price it the same as the car you're going head-to-head with, and hope to gain a majority of the sales. It simply priced wrong (too high) to attempt to compete with the BMW3. I realize it was GM's idea in some board room someplace to think that... "Hey... we're building a car that's going to direct compete with the BMW3 series, so it's obvious that we should price it at the same price point as a 3 series, and people will be beating down the doors to buy our new vehicle." Wrong!!! I've said it many times that given a similar optioned ATS vs BMW3 series, a majority of the car buying public would buy the BMW because it still is the defacto standard in that segment. BMW has the history (which the ATS doesn't). The BMW retains it's value very well over the years (much better than ATS currently does). If GM wanted more ATS's on the road, they should of been more aggressive with their pricing right from the very start, and been several thousand lower than the BMW to get more ATS's on the road, and therefore exposure. Money talks, and a similar equipped Cadillac ATS at a lower price against the BMW would of given more people... pause. Now GM has put themselves into a corner and to get stock moving they have to offer deep incentives and discounts... which as mentioned devalues the car.

    It's now the middle of 2014 and I live in a city of over a million people. I can count on one hand the amount of ATS's I've seen in the city or on highways during my commute in the past 6 months in my area. I walked into a Cadillac dealership about a month ago on a Saturday afternoon, and there were two couples browsing around the showroom and another couple in the lot. I drove to a BMW dealership shortly after... the showroom was packed with people. There wasn't a salesperson to be had.

    It's my opinion that the ATS is priced to high right now to even attempt to compete with the likes of BMW.

    It's going to be interesting when GM officially releases pricing for the 2015 ATS sedans. It's widely rumored that in attempts to try and gain more market share in this segment, that Cadillac is going to throw in more options and features into the 2015 ATS's, but the price will remain close to or the same as the 2014 ATS's. It would be interesting if that's the case to see if the ATS would gain any more traction with consumers or not.
    jhatfie likes this.

  10. #9
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    CTSCHICK is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Cadillac's Marketing and Advertising is Terrible.
    Cadillac still needs an image makeover once they figure out who they are so that they can properly and consistently project that image.
    Fix the crappy dealer experience where it still feels like a used car lot.

    It will be Interesting to see how the face lifted vehicles perform later this year compared to now though.
    GTO to ATS likes this.

  11. #10
    tex2670 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by listrats View Post
    You get alot more in the loaded ATS then the A4...So hence why it would cost more.
    That's not how it works when you are trying to revive a brand. You give more for the same money. That's how Hyundai shed its reputation of building crapmobiles to being highly competitive in the classes it sells cars. That's how Lexus made an instant splash when it debuted as a brand.

  12. #11
    arjuna7603 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by listrats View Post
    You get alot more in the loaded ATS then the A4...So hence why it would cost more.
    OH PLEASE!!!
    if u wanna find wat "more" u get in the ATS - its more cable rattles & more quality issues & more 'why the F did i buy this car' thoughts

  13. #12
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    Dad7159 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjuna7603 View Post
    OH PLEASE!!!
    if u wanna find wat "more" u get in the ATS - its more cable rattles & more quality issues & more 'why the F did i buy this car' thoughts
    That's definitely just your opinion. I have my ats prem for 6 months. No issues. I love my car go buy an a4


    Sent from AutoGuide.com App

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgr88
    I have made this point over and over in these forums. I am still completely convinced that it's the pricing that is hurting Cadillac. It is no secret that when Cadillac designed the ATS, they had the BMW3 series directly in their line of sight. The BMW3 series has (and still is) the king of the hill in that segment, far outselling any of the competition. So I give Cadillac kudos for going after the BWM3. But because the ATS is a new car to this segment, trying to dethrone the reigning champ... you simply can't build a new model of a car (no matter who the manufacturer is) and attempt to price it the same as the car you're going head-to-head with, and hope to gain a majority of the sales. It simply priced wrong (too high) to attempt to compete with the BMW3. I realize it was GM's idea in some board room someplace to think that... "Hey... we're building a car that's going to direct compete with the BMW3 series, so it's obvious that we should price it at the same price point as a 3 series, and people will be beating down the doors to buy our new vehicle." Wrong!!! I've said it many times that given a similar optioned ATS vs BMW3 series, a majority of the car buying public would buy the BMW because it still is the defacto standard in that segment. BMW has the history (which the ATS doesn't). The BMW retains it's value very well over the years (much better than ATS currently does). If GM wanted more ATS's on the road, they should of been more aggressive with their pricing right from the very start, and been several thousand lower than the BMW to get more ATS's on the road, and therefore exposure. Money talks, and a similar equipped Cadillac ATS at a lower price against the BMW would of given more people... pause. Now GM has put themselves into a corner and to get stock moving they have to offer deep incentives and discounts... which as mentioned devalues the car. It's now the middle of 2014 and I live in a city of over a million people. I can count on one hand the amount of ATS's I've seen in the city or on highways during my commute in the past 6 months in my area. I walked into a Cadillac dealership about a month ago on a Saturday afternoon, and there were two couples browsing around the showroom and another couple in the lot. I drove to a BMW dealership shortly after... the showroom was packed with people. There wasn't a salesperson to be had. It's my opinion that the ATS is priced to high right now to even attempt to compete with the likes of BMW. It's going to be interesting when GM officially releases pricing for the 2015 ATS sedans. It's widely rumored that in attempts to try and gain more market share in this segment, that Cadillac is going to throw in more options and features into the 2015 ATS's, but the price will remain close to or the same as the 2014 ATS's. It would be interesting if that's the case to see if the ATS would gain any more traction with consumers or not.
    I have said the same thing over n the 3rd gen CTS forums and I was often scoffed at by people saying Cadillac doesn't have to concede to anyone.

    WRONG. They just don't have the pedigree.

    Well said.

  15. #14
    bdwalters is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    I suspect sales of the new CTS are cutting into ATS and XTS sales a little. With that being said, it's just a really competitive marketplace and it's going to take time for Cadillac to build its brand where it can sell against the big boys. They just need to keep building great cars, over and over and over again to build more credibility. They are building world-class cars now, but they weren't for a long time, and it takes time to prove to people that you're back.

  16. #15
    DOB
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    Re: Is this revival failing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgr88 View Post
    I have made this point over and over in these forums. I am still completely convinced that it's the pricing that is hurting Cadillac.

    It is no secret that when Cadillac designed the ATS, they had the BMW3 series directly in their line of sight. The BMW3 series has (and still is) the king of the hill in that segment, far outselling any of the competition. So I give Cadillac kudos for going after the BWM3. But because the ATS is a new car to this segment, trying to dethrone the reigning champ... you simply can't build a new model of a car (no matter who the manufacturer is) and attempt to price it the same as the car you're going head-to-head with, and hope to gain a majority of the sales. It simply priced wrong (too high) to attempt to compete with the BMW3. I realize it was GM's idea in some board room someplace to think that... "Hey... we're building a car that's going to direct compete with the BMW3 series, so it's obvious that we should price it at the same price point as a 3 series, and people will be beating down the doors to buy our new vehicle." Wrong!!! I've said it many times that given a similar optioned ATS vs BMW3 series, a majority of the car buying public would buy the BMW because it still is the defacto standard in that segment. BMW has the history (which the ATS doesn't). The BMW retains it's value very well over the years (much better than ATS currently does). If GM wanted more ATS's on the road, they should of been more aggressive with their pricing right from the very start, and been several thousand lower than the BMW to get more ATS's on the road, and therefore exposure. Money talks, and a similar equipped Cadillac ATS at a lower price against the BMW would of given more people... pause. Now GM has put themselves into a corner and to get stock moving they have to offer deep incentives and discounts... which as mentioned devalues the car.

    It's now the middle of 2014 and I live in a city of over a million people. I can count on one hand the amount of ATS's I've seen in the city or on highways during my commute in the past 6 months in my area. I walked into a Cadillac dealership about a month ago on a Saturday afternoon, and there were two couples browsing around the showroom and another couple in the lot. I drove to a BMW dealership shortly after... the showroom was packed with people. There wasn't a salesperson to be had.

    It's my opinion that the ATS is priced to high right now to even attempt to compete with the likes of BMW.

    It's going to be interesting when GM officially releases pricing for the 2015 ATS sedans. It's widely rumored that in attempts to try and gain more market share in this segment, that Cadillac is going to throw in more options and features into the 2015 ATS's, but the price will remain close to or the same as the 2014 ATS's. It would be interesting if that's the case to see if the ATS would gain any more traction with consumers or not.

    you make some very good points. I have a 2003 CTS it was a company car and I have kept it. I love the car, i have 180k miles on it and the only problem I have had was the back window motors and the valve cover gaskets...

    I have always been a fan of BMW and for most of my life I have been told they are just Better cars, they drive better , handle better and last longer.. Well over my life time me and my wife have had 3 GM cars, a trail blazer, a cavalier and the caddie... I have driven all the german cars and honestly i was not blown away at all, impressed with the BMW 335, but not blown away...the new cadillacs look just as nice and drive just as good if not better.. but it is all about perception. which is why I agree, if cadillac priced the ATS right I bet they steal even more customers.

    I am shopping a 335 bmw and a cadillac ats, I really want to buy the ATS, and I plan to take it for a test drive. if it delivers a drive similar to the 335, I plan on getting the ATS and i want one fully loaded, but as you said, price will be a factor..most people seem to buy bimmers because of name. I hate that it seems like the 3 series is becoming the ultimate chic car... they buy is simply because of the
    name ..

    classic example, a client of mine, she has a lot of money, can buy any car she wants, she has a porsche cayenne SUV, not even the turbo, and I tried to tell her the jeep srt8 would have been a better buy and faster car... but she is caught up in the name.. she buys a porsche and gets the base model.. go figure... could have gotten a volkswagen toureg and gotten the same car..LOL

    she is in the market for a car and even though the CTS v-sport is much less than the S class benz she is looking at, she wont even test drive it... so pricing does matter but for some, they are uninformed and so brand conscious, they won't give cadillac a try...

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