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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, i bought a 472 in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; A 3" filter element with a drop base air cleaner is all you can stuff under the hood with the ...
  1. #16
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    472
    472 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: i bought a 472

    A 3" filter element with a drop base air cleaner is all you can stuff under the hood with the Edelbrock 2115 intake. As for the transmission, the long '69 TH400 is TOO long to work off the bat. Here's my situation; I've decided against having a driveline made or cut, and am going to UN-install the '69 TH400 after making a custom mount for it. I'm going to use a short TH400 so I can use factory mount and driveline. I was going to set up a page about all the troubles and facts I've come across on the way with my swap ('69 472 into '83 Coupe), but I've been too busy just working on the car. Let me know if you run into anything - Good luck finding 368 mounts!

  2. #17
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    Re: i bought a 472

    Yup. Now is the time to start collecting those parts that are only easy to get when you are not in a hurry. Nice thing is you can keep your current radiator if it is in good shape. The front driveshaft yoke will have to be swapped after you find the short TH400. Depending on wheather you are nuts enough, the speedometer housing can be swapped over to one with a correct PRNDL readout and even the steering column can be swapped so you have the correct detents. That does not have to be done but it is a nice touch. Keep an eye out for a dead RWD 425 car. All those parts are there.

  3. #18
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    Re: i bought a 472

    yeah, that brings up a couple things i have wondered about. im gonna be taking out every electronic i possibly can when i do the swap, but what about my column shifter?that i dont need to change, right? on the dash it says prnd321, so all those stops will be the same except 3rd will really be 2nd and 2nd will really be 1st, and it wont go to the 1, right? and will my speedometer still work?

  4. #19
    The Ape Man's Avatar
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    Re: i bought a 472

    You can keep the column and the speedo cluster. The detents will be wrong but it will work. Set neutral to where it belongs on the readout and the rest of the letters will be close enough.
    You don't have to go banannas taking stuff out with that swap. Keep the ECM. It turns the climate control on. Remove the check engine lamp and back over it or smash with a 48 oz. hammer. Plan on changing the front springs at some point. Watch out for heavy duty numbnuts springs. They will ruin the ride. IIRC, the high side power steering hose from the old pump that you will be using is different but will still work with your newer steering box which uses a little different style fitting. Either that or the pump fittings get swapped. You have to decide about the fuel pump. You can take the tank out and convert to an old style pickup with no pump OR you can leave the stock pump and regulate it down to a level that your carbonator can handle. Either way works but using the electric pump will require a little more wiring at the engine. As long as you can solder and heat shrink wires then it is pretty easy. You are also going to need a 368 or 425 rear wheel drive oil pump housing. The filter will hit the steering linkage unless the housing is changed. I heard somebody say there was a way around this but never saw it myself. You also need to grab a different starter motor AND the little L shaped bracket that holds the rear of starter to the engine block. Check your motor and trans when you get it to make sure that is there. That little bracket must be used. Get a Chrysler 225 C.I. "slant six" bypass hose. That will go on the RS cylinder head heater hose outlet and up to your heater control valve. Put it on before dropping the 472 in.
    Another good part from the 425 car would be the entire air conditioning hoses that connect to the rear of the compressor. This way you can use the old axial compressor. You might just want to use a whole different compressor if going to an aftermarket intake manifold though.
    I miss doing those swaps they were fun.

  5. #20
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    Re: i bought a 472

    Quote Originally Posted by 472
    I was going to set up a page about all the troubles and facts I've come across on the way with my swap ('69 472 into '83 Coupe), but I've been too busy just working on the car. Let me know if you run into anything - Good luck finding 368 mounts!
    that would be cool, im not planning on dropping it until winter, so i dont need any info immediately, but if you can post on here, or a site would be cool, i remember seeing a site of someone putting a 500 into a 82 fleetwood limo, but i cant remember where it was,

    what about the 368 mounts? are those the mounts im gonna need?

  6. #21
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    Re: i bought a 472

    hey, ape, all of this is very helpful, im a visual person, so im not exactly sure what you are talking about, but when i start doing the drop and looking at the parts ill have a better idea of what needs to be done, ill also be able to refer back to this thread as well as others, it sounds like as long as i can find the different cars to get parts off ill be fine. knowing ny though, it seems i may have to travel to junkyards kinda far away to get the parts i need. and again, thanks for the help

  7. #22
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    Checklist

    Here’s a run down of some useful info;

    Oiling System;
    a: 368 Oil Pan and Pick-Up Tube (425 works, but you must check rod clearance).
    b: 368 Oil Pump/”Filter Mount” (425 works, be aware of steering).

    Installation;
    368 Engine Mounts (I do NOT think 425 ones will work, I can take a pic of 368 ones for you).

    Accessories;
    I found the best way to set it up is with 77-79 gear. I’m using all 77 brackets, pulleys, P/S pump, fan and funk spacer, and 77-79 style alternator. I omitted the A/C since I’m using an Edelbrock intake; I can get the belt length to delete it with 77-79 pulleys. The 77-79 P/S hoses are PERFECT. A 77-79 fuel pump should work if you don’t want to use the stock one (I made a block off plate for the fuel pump and setup a Holley “Red” Electric pump).

    Exhaust;
    You can use the crummy 425 manifolds, but the passenger side really chokes it; the alternative is to use the 427 (500) manifolds and “notch” the ‘ol control arm and trim the front stud down. Or get the header flanges and use BBC or BBF headers.

    Electrical;
    I kept the IGN lead for the coil, and the starter lead... that’s it. I omitted a literal heap of wires. I did leave all the ECM junk in the car in tact so the ECC works normally. Also, when I swapped the dash, I was sure to take all the bulbs out for junk like “Oil Pressure”, “Water Temp”, and of course “Service Soon” (using analog gauges).

    Cooling;
    I used an ’89 305 Brougham radiator; the lower hose is fine, but the upper inlet was smaller on the radiator than the water outlet – However, I modified a small bock Chevy water outlet and cut the stock hose way down since I deleted the A/C.

    Drivetrain;
    Well, as noted earlier, I’ve been struggling here. I have the TH400 (long) installed with a custom mount, and swapped the fittings on it out to accept the smaller cooling lines, but its TOO LONG. A 1979 Seville driveline ALMOST fits since it’s shorter than stock, but still too long. So, I was thinking about using the long TH400 and cutting a Seville line, but am thinking I’ll just get a short TH400 (77+ BOP) so I can use a stock drive line.


    That's all I can think of right now, I'm off to work on the turkey for the moment

  8. #23
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    Re: i bought a 472

    thank you 472, very helpful, i will probably need some stuff spelled right out for me, lol. not that im a slow learner, i just have no frame of reference on something like this, so its kinda tough,

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    Re: i bought a 472

    What header flanges are needed to be able to bolt Big Block Chevy headers to a 472. Any clearance issues? I'm putting them into a 1969 RWD hearse. Thanks.

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    Re: i bought a 472

    I know this is not the most popular suggstion but here goes.Personally I would not use headers on an engine like this if it is just going to be a street motor.Headers are a pita for many reasons,tendancy to leak,heat everything near it to the melting point,more expensive...........and at low RPM`s that these motors are designed for the manifolds will do just fine and work well with duals.Then again when I was a young man headers were the only way to go.I guess what I`m trying to say is if you want maintanance free use manifolds.I`m sure people had great success with headers but for a street cad I think you will do just fine with your manifolds.Now the speech from your father is over you can go back to your original programming.....

  11. #26
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    Re: i bought a 472

    Quote Originally Posted by deeman
    I know this is not the most popular suggstion but here goes....
    Some people don't seem to take certain news too well.
    Headers can really be a royal pain. Some engines really wake up with them like the small block Chrysler. It's really tempting to see what would happen on a stone stock 500 or other Cad engine. They make some happy wrap stuff which is supposed to keep underhood heat down and quiet the explosion noises down a bit. I am considering taking the plunge myself to try installing a set. The idea of cylinder scavenging and improved balance is hard to ignore.
    They are one of the few things that can improve performance and fuel economy. I hope to run into someone firsthand who has installed a pair on a car that can be driven daily without sacrificing comfort.

  12. #27
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    Re: i bought a 472

    My uncle once had a '69 GTO convertable that was completly restored and ran on 110 octane. boy was it fast. Anyways I remember him going through about 3 sets of headers because since it was a sonvertable, it had some sort of extra crossbar thing in teh engine compartment that caused one of the pipes to have to go way down to avoid it, so sometimes it would bottom out and completly thrash that one pipe. Finally got some different springs/shocks in the front.

    Hm, that was completly irrelevant.

  13. #28
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    Header Flanges

    Here's a place that sells headers and flanges. The flanges are just plates of steel with the ports and holes to match a Cad head, then it's up to you to acquire a set of BBC (or BBF) headers, cut the BBC flange off, and affix the BBC header to the Cad flange. A pain, and no certainty of fit in the car, but cheaper than 'made' ones. Headers are a pain in general but I love 'em. Eventually I'd like to make a pair, the pre-made ones are SPENDY!

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    Re: i bought a 472

    I knew I would be the dark cloud rolling in over the horizon.I am getting to old and tired I guess,it can happen.When you have your knuckles covered in scar tissue from cuts and burns it makes you want to just jump in a turn key auto.I just finnished a rebuild on a 1ton 4x4 chev truck.I used to own a salvage yard and believe me after a while you get burned out just looking at vehicles.I hope the spark jumps the gap soon so I can get fired up for another 10 years.Then again listening to some of you guys doing crazy engine swaps is getting the old blood flowing again.(where in the hell are my flanges at,I`m thinking about making some headers) Good luck to all you guys with your crazy projects,that`s why we are at the same site.

  15. #30
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    Re: i bought a 472

    You wanna hear about crazy projects? Sometime I'll list a few. That's what keeps this interesting. We need a couple of motivated younger people with brains, time and money to get all this stuff sorted out so we can ask them what all the part numbers are.

    BTW, engine mounts from a rear wheel drive 425 will work to install a 472/425/500 into an HT4100 RWD car. Replacement oil pump housing for 368 RWD and 425 RWD should be same thing. Originals were aluminum on some models. All replacemants that I've seen are cast iron. The important thing is to make sure that the steering linkage doesn't try to knock off the oil filter when turning. The old junkyard interchange books list all this stuff.

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