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472, how to boost fuel economy?

91K views 167 replies 26 participants last post by  cadchris 
#1 ·
Hi

I have -69 De Ville. When i bought it, car was not maintained in ages and it had very bad fuel economy, 12MPG in road drive.

Well, I replaced old airfilter and oilfilter (+oil of course) with new ones and economy went little better (13MPG).

Is there any way to lower the MPG? I have heard some people get 17 or even 18MPG fuel comsumination? With todays gas prices (1,7€/litre here in Finland, if i calculated correctly, that would mean, 8,6$/gallon:bonkers:)

Maybe I should change some ignition components such as spark plugs and breaker points. At least those looked pretty old. Are there any differences between different sparkplugs? Can I get any benefit from sparkplugs like iridium or platinum with my mechanical ignition system, or should I just buy traditional plugs like AC Delco?

I think my ignition timing is too early (something like 30-50 degrees early). Does this effect much to fuel consume?

Second thing is the carburetor. I think I'm going to do some mainteance in there too and change at least the float needle valve. I checked my cars emissions in local garage, and they were very nice, so air/gas mixtures are fine. What other things I should change there?


Are there any other things what would affect to fuel economy? I dont have EGR, Pulse air systems or any other emission control equipment.

PS. Sorry if my english was bad
 
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#37 · (Edited)
Hi "3dfx",

Very very sorry 3dfx I didn't get back to you. Been sick for a while, but almost on a daily basis, I've compiled literally a library and database of links for you to review about the 472/500 modifications surrounding fuel economy..... About a whole winter's worth of reading!!!!!
:bonkers:

Ton's of info on the 472 and how to achieve the fuel economy gains. I'm glad you posted a message and are still interested in this subject, so my research can at least be of interest to you or others. Since you already found the MTS site, you probably have been also doing research and may have already seen the many links I've already compiled, or maybe not!
:hmm:

I've also become very interested in the 472/500 and may put one in my 91' Brougham if my little 305 TBI dies some day. I also found a guy who put one into a beautiful red concourse 1980 Fleetwood Brougham that gets 12mpg (city?/Hwy?) and does the 1/4 mile in 12.92 at 106mph and is an every day street car! This motor was built by the old famous owner of MTS "Al Betker" who built the motor to be 500 hp / 600 tq. for Matt Garrett who is a major car collector here the U.S. and has a huge website of all his cars:
http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM

Here's his main web-page with all of his collection. His Cadillac Collection is really unbelievable:
http://www.mcsmk8.com/cadillacs/mycads.htm :yup:

I've also e-mailed Matt Garrett about his 1980 Fleetwood and how to get in touch with Al Betker. I may call him tomorrow also.

I've been thinking a lot about your engine and have been researching and talking to experts on some diagnostics and very specific and unique procedures/treatments to do on your engine to basically save its life from an unnecessary rebuild and to try and revive it so you can hopefully take this project on without a lot of expense or doing a rebuild.

I have been in contact with Marty at MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties www.500cid.com ) a few times about your 69' Deville who is now one of the new owners of the company. Today he sent me the "TOP SECRET CAM SPECS" in order to be able to start to get advice on matching axle gears, transmission, torque converter, and spark advance to get this engine to run properly on that cam or even with your stock cam. Basically, MTS only builds engines but will try and help give advice beyond engine building. Many forums have said MTS is the best and most well known company to deal with on the 425/472/500 performance parts ect.

After doing a lot of research on that cam and other economy improving tricks for the 472/500, I've been trying to get the history straight about their MTS#3 "22 mpg. Economy Camshaft"
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-Valve-Train/s/17/Categories

The company "MTS" has gone through 3 owners and Marty (new owner) had said he does not have the detailed info about that famous "76' Sedan DeVille 472 that got 22 mpgs." because he said the client database and other info was all lost after a computer crash after they bought the company from Al Betker. I "THINK" that camshaft along with all the MTS cams were developed by the 2nd owner Al Betker who developed and did a lot of research and design on those cam, but sold his business (MTS) to Marty around 2007 who merged and also bought out Torque Inc. another Cadillac Perf. company along with Bull Dog Cadillac Performance Heads.

I'm presently trying to track down "Al Betker" through some of my auto industry contacts and will let you know if I can find him and get him to join in here to discuss his expertise on these motors........

As far as the info I've compiled, ITS HUGE! I've tried my best to organized it with a description of each link. I think I may do a write-up about what I believe you should try to do with the motor first in diagnostics and some procedures, then post all of those links to better understand my rational of how I would proceed with your car if it were mine.

Not real sure how I'm going to do this.......I have to think a little more but since no one else has posted any ideas in a few weeks, I guess the next few HUGE posts won't bury anyone's posts on the subject.

Regards,
Chris
 
#38 ·
Has anyone here replaced your own cam with MTS#3 series mileage cam?

What else I must change? Do I have to change lifters, pushrods, or anything?

They say this cam works best in low-compression engines, how doest it work in my engine, which is high compression? Do I get better results than ones with low compression engine?[/QUOTE]

Any time you install a new cam it is best to install new lifters. The lifter faces and the cam lobes have to "wear-in". Cam manufactures generally sell these in kits with some moly-disulfide and oil additive, to aid with the break-in. If you plan to use a previously used cam, it is advisable to install lifters in the same location in relation to the lobe due to the resulting matched surfaces.
Push rods, rockers, rocker shafts, valve stem tips, locks, and spring retainers, should all be examined with scrutiny. My rule, New cam = new valve springs, or at least check the static spring pressure and replace as needed. Sometimes you can get away with replacing just the exhaust valve springs, as they are exposed to more heat than the intakes.
Cams designed as "mileage" cams are basically low lift/short duration cams which do not promote proper dynamics for most high compressioned engines. The stock cam for a 472 is already of this design. Compression in these engines is the result of the large diameter/stroke of the pistons, similar in design as a lot of diesel engines. These engines reach peak efficiency around 2000 rpm. Use of one of these cams, may neccessitate rejetting your carb to improve off idle performance.
 
#39 ·
It's always fun to get into an engine and work toward better economy/more power.

But, keep careful accounts of money and time spent, bounce that against any claimed gas mileage increase and your present mileage; then figure how many gallons of gas you need to burn to begin to break even.

I build a LOT of Olds 455 and GM 454 engines for marine use. Different cams, rocker arms, timing - all have very little effect (in the order of things) on fuel consumption. Advancing a cam 4 degrees brings the power curve down a bit in the rpm range and MIGHT net you a small fuel economy gain at cruise, but that's doubtful.

Perhaps a good Quadrajet overhaul and some careful primary jet work would be the way to go. Find Doug Roe's HP Books 8 X 11 paperback on how to repair and tune Quadrajets. Google.
 
#40 ·
But, keep careful accounts of money and time spent, bounce that against any claimed gas mileage increase and your present mileage; then figure how many gallons of gas you need to burn to begin to break even.
Yeah, I really have to keep this in mind. Thats why I have to find out does someone REALLY got mileages as low as 22MPG. We in Finland have lots of 80's and 90's Turbo Volvos and Saab 900 Turbos and they get mileages like that. Saab 900, and Volvos are smaller cars with smaller, 2 liter engines. It sound very unbelieveable that bigger car with 60's huge carburator engine could do the same mileages than those Saabs and Volvos with fuel injection (crappy bosch K-jettronic...I don't know is it much better than carburator...) and turbos.

I'm only changing the cam if I decide to do some serious engine repairs and replace all piston rings, bearings and all worn parts with new ones, hone cylinders, "hone" (I don't know is this the right word?) valves, machine my cylinder head with MIRA.

I have to do this decision about engine repairs after I have done pass-leak test and pressure test to my engine. I'll do them as soon as I can. Maybe in spring when weather warms up.

I have been in contact with Marty at MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties www.500cid.com ) a few times about your 69' Deville who is now one of the new owners of the company.
I sent E-mail to them yesterday and asked about prices, cam options, and can they ship their products to Finland.
 
#41 · (Edited)
From all the links I saved on the 472/500's: the factory cam had a very bizarre and strange profile since it was the beginning of emissions control in the U.S. The peak intake lift was said to be 17 degrees After Top Dead Center!!!!!! Very bad for power or efficiency of combustion and I can't imagine how it gave lower emissions. There was so many other strange issues with those factory cams on slow ramp speed ect. ect. and have been said to be very bad cam designs from the factory, and ANY performance cam will really bring that engine alive from what others have experienced and studying the factory cam profile. They also have said these cams and even aftermarket regrinds need to be degreed in because most of them are off by 4 degrees +++.

"This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?"
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php?topic=5836.25;wap2

Full Forum: "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?"
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php?topic=5836.0


From what I've read a few times now, the 425/472/500 engine blocks were casted with high nickle alloy content which made them very hard and durable and was great protection from cylinder wall wear. So that's in your favor if the engine was not well maintained. I've read that many people were surprised to see the original cross hatch still on the cylinder walls after 200,000 miles and didnt' need to touch the cylinder walls.


The original springs were not made well from Cadillac, and it has been said, you can actually compress the springs by hand because they were so weak!

Also, you definitely want to purchase the MTS#3 or #5 Kit with the lifters along with the valve spring kit:
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-330/Complete-MTS-Valve-Spring/Detail

MTS#3 Cam Kit: http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-237/MTS-#3--dsh--472-fdsh-500/Detail

MTS#5 Cam Kit: http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-236/MTS-#5--dsh--472-fdsh-500/Detail


I may as well let you in on a major flaw of this motor right now, that I discovered.

First, the valve spring seals/retainers on the 425/472/500 motors were made of Nylon (plastic), as were the teeth on the timing gears had Nylon! The Nylon gets very brittle and breaks off from both area's and ends up on the oil pump pickup screen! When the Nylon coating breaks off the timing gears, it accelerates the timing chain wear and totally screws up valve timing along with ignition timing which will make matters worse for efficiency of the combustion event! If it gets bad enough, the chain jumps a tooth +, you will have valve piston contact! That's what I was told and couldn't believe it........

I believe that is why you are having a MAJOR oil problem as I have confirmed that 1 liter/600km is far too much oil being burned for that motor and any of these Big Cadillac Motors using more than 1qt/3000 has these problems which need to be explored and ruled out.

In addition, you will need to buy a new Timing Set by Cloyes:
http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-92/Cloyes-Street-full-roller/Detail Street Set

http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/the-93/Cloyes-Super-HP-timing/Detail HP Full Roller Set

I know one of technical guys at Cloyes I can talk to about this in the next few days and which "Timing Set" to go with. He coincidentally sent me an e-mail the other day about something else so I'll be sure to ask him what he knows about the 472/500 because he is an absolute authority on GM.


The 2nd reason that I've been doing a lot of research about your oil consumption problem, is that I firmly believe all that oil in the combustion chambers has most certainly carboned up ring-packs/ ring-lands and are not allowing the rings to move freely and seal, along with bad maintenance of previous owners and long oil change intervals with cheep oil over the years......so your oil consumption problem over the years may have caused the rings to seize up fromoil entering from the top through the valve seals, and from the bottom through a stuck oil ring..........more on how to resolve that later by a hot chemical soak and pressurizing the cylinder to dissolve the carbon with out taking the motor apart!

One of the first things to do after a chemical soak, is to take that oil pan off and inspect/clean it out from all the Nylon material!

SEE POST #4 and enlarge the photo of all the Nylon timing gears and valve springs seals!:shocked2:
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/425-ci-cadillac-198642.html

After I post up all my research along with any other advice from other members here, you are going to want to join the Forums that specialize in the 472/500 motors like the 500CID Forum and there are a few others. Just post the links on this thread so others can get linked to those other forums threads on building an efficient 472/500 because I'm sure some very good advice will be given!
:2thumbs:


Essentially, from the info I will post, in order to get the best fuel economy from that MTS#3, it will need to be carefully matched to the proper gears, trans, torque converter, and spark curve of a new HEI and you may as well go with a MSD/Crane/Mallory CID spark box which will give you multiple sparks to improve the combustion efficiency of those HUGE combustion chambers!

There is another spark box technology that is mostly unknown, but was developed by a very well known German Electronics Engineer by the name of Ulf Arens and some in the OEM/Aftermarket Spark Box Industry consult with him for product development while other shun his expertise and knowledge. Here's his technology he licensed to this company which is big with the Asian Tuners: http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm

This system was also tested by David Vizard who is the famous automotive technical journalist who writes all the "GOOD" articles for the car magazines like Hot Rod ect...and has written a few performance books. He did a write up on a very good race industry forum that no longer exists but here is the old archived website. Unfortunately, the photos of the Ignition Scope Pattern are not shown on this site which was proof of how it worked:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080413...sma-ignition-promo-parley-pratical-power.html

Here is an excerpt on the same article about the Plasma Booster from David Vizards book: "HOW TO BUILD HORSEPOWER". Pg. 90 is not shown but here is pg. 91:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OA...AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=DAVID VIZARD PLASMA&f=false


Industry News on Ulf Arens's invention:
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/spark-of-anger

But David Vizard is now testing the Blue Phoenix Plasma Ignition so I'll have to read about it more but these guys are discussing it:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28187&start=45


This is why you need at least an HEI Distributor/Ignition to light off that high compression and huge cylinders which are as big as an old oil can! Like this one: http://www.retroplanet.com/PROD/13370
Even David Vizard states the same on large big block cylinder capacities in that book.
:burn:


If you think this post was long..............the info I will post is about 10 of these pages!!!!!! :wisdom: But I believe is well worth the read.

More to come soon!

Regards,
Chris
 
#42 · (Edited)
I've read that many people were surprised to see the original cross hatch still on the cylinder walls after 200,000 miles and didnt' need to touch the cylinder walls.
One Cadillac mechanic here said this same thing when I started to talk about honing the cylinder walls. Well, that's good for me.

First, the valve spring seals/retainers on the 425/472/500 motors were made of Nylon (plastic), as were the teeth on the timing gears had Nylon!
I'm familiar with this problem, my Saab 96 (with 1,5 liter Ford V4) has nylon timing gears and valve spring seals. I haven't got any problems with that yet but my friend has lots of problems with them and he replaced the original nylon gears with ones made from steel. Luckily, bad timing doesn't to any heavy damage in Ford V4.

Well, replacing the nylon gears is the first thing I'll have to do when I dismantle my engine. Those nylon things just suck and can cause lots of problems.

There is another spark box technology that is mostly unknown, but was developed by a very well known German Electronics Engineer by the name of Ulf Arens and some in the OEM/Aftermarket Spark Box Industry consult with him for product development while other shun his expertise and knowledge. Here's his technology he licensed to this company which is big with the Asian Tuners: http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm
One Finnish car magazine had article about that plasma ignition. There were pictures about it and spark seemed lot brighter than test cars original spark. Test car was pretty new VAG group car, Audi perhaps. The difference between those two sparks was huge, I can't imagine how huge the difference will be between break-point ignition and plasma ignition.

The only question is, how reliable this plasma ignition system is. It's mainly used in high-end racing cars for a short perioids of time and there isn't very much street experience about it. How does the system work after 100 000km or 200 000km of street driving? Or how this plasma ignition device work in -20 degrees celsius?

Essentially, from the info I will post, in order to get the best fuel economy from that MTS#3, it will need to be carefully matched to the proper gears, trans, torque converter, and spark curve of a new HEI and you may as well go with a MSD/Crane/Mallory CID spark box which will give you multiple sparks to improve the combustion efficiency of those HUGE combustion chambers!
This could be pretty expensive if I have to take my car to some gearbox workshop for adjustment and go to some other workshop to adjust my ignition or sparkbox.

The MTS#5 cam is more like the stock cam but how much it will affect to fuel economy? Is it possible to get anything like 18-20 MPG with this cam?

This is why you need at least an HEI Distributor/Ignition to light off that high compression and huge cylinders which are as big as an old oil can!
HEI distributor could be good. Is it any difference if I buy used old Delco-Remy distributor from some old 70's 472 based Cadillac or new high quality distributor? Of course, if I buy old distributor, I will overhaul it.

If you think this post was long..............the info I will post is about 10 of these pages!!!!!! But I believe is well worth the read.
I'll read it, this is very interesting topic. I'ts good to study these engines and make them more affordable to drive with todays gas prices.
 
#43 ·
Hi 3DFX,

What Plasma system did they review in that magazine article?

Over the past few years, there have been quite a few ignitions that have developed a "Plasma" type ignition, but only a few few who truly developed the better technology. The system built by Ulf Arens and now sold through Okada Projects, or maybe by his old company in Europe, are for street cars and built to last for every day use. I've read that they are a simple 2 or 3 wire connection to the distributor/coil and if the box should fail, it resorts back to the OEM ignition where the MSD/Crane CDI box's will totally shut down the igntion if it should fail. I believe its because those system replace the distributor module where this Plasma box by OKADA does not.

I've been reading a lot about that other system called Blue Phoenix Plasma Ignition and that system needs to be used with non-resistor plug which will interfere with modern day electronics or radios from a lot of EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) that is generated with a non-resistor plug and amplified by this spark box, but some users have talked about installing shielding devices like the old style metal end capped euro spark plug boots that are then run to a ground wire. They've also said plugs don't last long on that system due to erosion of the plug tips because the system is so powerful. Although, Non-resistor plugs on a MSD Box or other boxes will also show a huge spark discharge but then again, that is at normal atmosperic pressure and not under vacuum or within a combustion chamber under extreme pressures. But makes a good marketing show!

They were also talking about custom made "Duel Tungsten" plugs which are hand made to run on this system.......very interesting.:hmm:

The Plasma technology is very real and one system I read about was developed by reserchers at M.I.T. (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) around 1999 and they formed a private company called SmartFire Plasma Ignition. The company has since been bought and sold by some industry giants like Motorola and Woodwards. It was developed for F1 Race engines and it used the spark plug also as a harmonic device listening for pre-igntion/detonation/misfires and would adjust the spark event accordingly!

This system was about $22,000 U.S.!!!!!!!!!! :shocked::shocked2:

But I think the BIG OIL COMPANY's suppressed the technology through influence of Motorola and Woodwards who now own the SmartFire System!
:bricks:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/oct06/burckmyer.html

http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analysis/sparking-interest

There was even a brief merger of the company that makes my injector carbon cleaning machine "TerraClean" before they were sold off::hmm::hmm::hmm:
http://guideauto.com/terralogix-and-adrenaline-form-alliance-to-commercialize-their-complementary-low-emission-technolo/actualite

Here's the latest on Plasma Ignition Technology from Federal-Mogul:
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1066976_michigan-company-develops-fuel-saving-corona-ignition-system

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/breakthrough-federal-mogul-advanced-corona-ignition-system-acis-technology-enables-significantly-improved-fuel-economy-reduced-emissions-extended-service-life-129714558.html

I BET THESE IGNITION TECHNOLOGIES WOULD GET THE OLD CADDY UP TO 50 MPG'S!!!!!!:dance:

But, I think this technology has ALSO been somewhat exploited by the lower end devices that are available bragging about "Plasma". The only 2 devices I'd trust is the ones tested by David Vizard. I'm sure there maybe other company's too and some in Europe, but I'll have to talk with Ulf Arens someday soon to and ask him about these technologies or any others in Europe that are reputable..............maybe he was the first to duplicate the plasma technology or they stole it from him!


Anyway, here's a little bit more info on the cam that I wanted to pass along to you and the e-mail from Marty at MTS and who was nice enough to actually give me the secret cam specs. Not sure if he also sent you this info too. But here it is for everyone to read..... In addition, here is some old info from the old MTS owners website further below:

E-mail from MTS on exact cam specs:

"#3 cam specs using stock rockers
-This is a single pattern cam so both intake and exhaust lobes are the same
Valve lift .472"
-Advertised duration at .006" lift is 267*
-duration at .050" lift is 210*
-LSA is 112* and the cam is ground straight up. With early higher compression engines this is the way we recommend it be installed so the engine doesn't want to ping as easily.

With the later low compression engines the cam can be advanced 4*

-#5 cam specs with stock rockers
-Valve lift .486"
-Advertised duration at .006" lift is 279*
-duration at .050" is 214*
-LSA is 112 + 4"


WEB ARCHIVED PAGES FROM OLD MTS WEBSITE: I'll post the websites in that HUGE research I've been doing to post here maybe this weekend.

#3 Series Grind
RPM Range: Idle - 4200
This Cam is all Bottom end and Toque. Its excellent for heavy tow use. It will get a very heavy package moving from dead stop easily. It makes a great replacement for the stock cams in stock Fleetwood and Eldorados. This cam provides a stock idle with good vacuum. Its perfect for use with 2 to low 3 series rear gears. it works with stock valve springs and provides good fuel economy.

#5 Series Grind
RPM Range: 1000 - 4600
Use of this Cam Requires a performance vale spring kit. This cam moves the power band up a notch. Still a good M.P.G. economy with a stock type idle. For use with 2 to 3 series rear gearing. Excellent towing power. This cam will move the Cadillac power curve to match your vehicles low to 3 series rear end gearing. A good choice for your daily driven street car or street rod. Excellent M.P.G. that improves with edelbrock intake and headers. Perfect choice for low compression 427 or 500 cads.


I'm also in contact with a well known custom torque converter company called YANK converters. They are a company who highly engineers torque converters beyond the other well known companies. There are only a few of these custom converter company's that seem to share the same engineering technologies, but they are not cheep due to how well they built. I'll ask this guy what he recommends to see if they have a history on what works for custom converters for the Cadillac's for fuel efficiency to be matched to the MTS#3 Cam Profile and other recommendations of gearing/trans.

More to come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Chris
 
#44 · (Edited)
Hi again 3Dfx,

Did you read this link to the forum "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?" that I posted previously?

It talks about the 472/500 & 429/360 and detail info on the factory cam specs..... That forum has 4 pgs and easy to miss the pg. display on the upper left/lower left side of the pg. See the 8th post on that page below by "John Baker" who gives the OEM cam specs and from what they discuss, the OEM cams were 17 deg. retarded on intake opening!
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,5836.15.html

The MTS#5 Cam is definitely not like the factory OEM cam from what they've discussed there.....

Getting the correct axle gear set, trans., torque converter, and bringing in all the timing advance of 30-36 degrees at 2000 rpm is what MTS said. Not a big deal, but just picking the best rear gears to match that cam is important to get your fuel economy...

Good info in that 4pg thread......

You can do a rebuilt Delco. I'll post some stuff on that tomorrow......:yawn:

Regards,
Chris
 
#46 ·
My 425 is still smooth as silk at 124k miles, it does, however, use about a quart of oil each thousand miles. Since I intend to keep the car, I have kept in the back of my mind a rebuild of the engine, carb and transmission too, and the MTS #3 mileage cam will go in so I can maybe go 3 days between fill ups instead of 2.
 
#47 ·
Since were talking about cams, here's some basic info about cam specs:

Popular HotRodding Article:http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0606em_camshaft_specs/viewall.html

Monte Carlo Forum on LSA ect:
http://www.firstgenmc.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62451

LS1 Forum on Cam Advancing Specs:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/894483-cam-lsa-explanation.html


The specs that MTS e-mailed me are still only basic specs and not the complete cam profile. Probably so people can't duplicate the cam by another mfg. without having the profile measured on a "Cam Doctor" machine.
http://powermechanics.com/camdoctor.html

A little on Camshaft integrity here by NC Cams, when measuring on a "cam doctor machine" that a camshaft supplier uses...funny thread but informative on measuring cam defects also!
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/home-made-cam-doctor-149679.html

When you get a new cam, it must be degreed just in case the keyway is off and it needs to be corrected by drilling the cam sprocket alignment hole and installing a offset shim or an adjustable cam sprocket!:thumbsup: .

Anyway, I went looking on YOUTUBE for their old "Cam Degreeing" video, which I have in their old kit they sold in the early 90's with a classroom tutorial and teacher using a classroom chalkboard. I asked Comp Cams to upload it but here is their newer less informative video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNoVRLb73c

Here's the kit they sell through Summit Racing:
http://www.powerhouseproducts.com/ph/valve-train-tools/camshaft-tools.html

A few years ago, a company called CamLogic developed a digital cam degreeing kit and it was bought out by Comp Cams-Powerhouse Tools, and may not be available any longer:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1626/camlogic_digital_degree_system_revolutionizes_camshaft_degreeing.aspx

http://powermechanics.com/camdoctor.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bWoULkiRDU


Here's a good 5 part video on Camshaft Design:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnfdYc2GAz0


From what I read on the old archived MTS site that I will post along with many other links: "MT Series Cams are custom ground for MTS by Comp Cams" and the "VT Series are custom ground for MTS by Erson Cams"

The new owners of MTS could have their cams ground by other grinders in the industry.

Hopefully, Comp Cams will upload their original cam degreeing video.
 
#48 ·
Did you read this link to the forum "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?" that I posted previously?
Yeah, I have read John Baker's post about horrible cam design.

What Plasma system did they review in that magazine article?
I'm not sure but I think it was the Okada project ignition system.

I have to look for that magazine, maybe I can find one from library. I think they store some old magazines in there.

Not sure if he also sent you this info too.
I haven't got an answer from there yet, I'll have to send a new message to them, maybe my message went to their spam folder.

Not a big deal, but just picking the best rear gears to match that cam is important to get your fuel economy...
I'm not sure did I ask this before but If im lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torqueconverter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Arron9000 in post #18 said most likely you have 2.94:1 gears. Since you were not the original owner, have you ever verified what gears you have?

Here's one way to check...see post#9:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11303

I'll get you a definite answer from that tech at the company who builds custom converters.

Just found another site for the 1969 Cadillac Specs:
http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/prod1969cadi.html

By the way, in Finland, you are paying $8.60 U.S. for a gallon of gas!!!!!!!!!!!:mob:

Basically, 1.6 Euros per liter. That's $2.15 US per liter or a quart! There are about 4 liters or quarts to a gallon.
http://www.mytravelcost.com/Finland/gas-prices/


So what's the more severe punishment, stealing petrol or stealing a draft horse to tow your Caddy around?!:shifty

I think you may want to consider the "Electric Car Conversion Forum"! I don't know how you guys can afford to drive those cars over-there........................
 
#50 · (Edited)
Arron9000 in post #18 said most likely you have 2.94:1 gears. Since you were not the original owner, have you ever verified what gears you have?
No I haven't. I think I have original gears because this car is pretty much in original condition. I'll check them tomorrow if the weather is good and reply about my gears.

By the way, in Finland, you are paying $8.60 U.S. for a gallon of gas!!!!!!!!!!!

Basically, 1.6 Euros per liter. That's $2.15 US per liter or a quart! There are about 4 liters or quarts to a gallon.
http://www.mytravelcost.com/Finland/gas-prices/
Gas has been always expensive in Finland. Gas is taxed much and the government will tax it more and more...:arghh: Currently there is The Green party (some kind of environmental extremist..) sitting in government among other parties and those Greens would like to stop private cars (heavily taxed new cars (nowadays if I buy a car worth 50 000Euros, taxes are something like 15000 to 25000 Euros so the final price is like 70 000 euros...) and heavily taxed gas..) from Finland and indirectly force everyone to use public conveyance...That's good in cities but in countryside it's bad...Luckily those Greens aren't very strong party..

Now the gas prices have come down a little. In spring gas prices were something like 1.7 and 1.8 Euros per liter..Now prices are something like 1.55 and 1.6 Euros per liter.


I think you may want to consider the "Electric Car Conversion Forum"!
Electric cars are bad because they don't work in low temperatures. I would need to steal that that draft horse anyway:D

Well, maybe pressurized natural gas conversion is an option in future. The conversion itself isn't very expensive but the availability of natural gas is bad. Hope there will be more gas stations in future. Of course problems with natural gas prices begin when there is more natural-gas powered cars in the streets and when the government starts to tax heavily natural gas...:annoyed:

I don't know how you guys can afford to drive those cars over-there........................
That's why I'm here to talk about getting more economical cadillac:2thumbs:


I think there was more politics than Cadillacs in this message:D
 
#51 · (Edited)
There are also LPG (Liquid Propane Gas) conversions that many fleet trucks convert to which is cheaper than gasoline here and burns cleaner. There are inexpensive kits available also for personal cars/trucks...infact, many internet forums devoted to it. I've been reading about an additive for LPG that increases BTU's of the combustion.Not sure if Finland has LPG filling stations.

You need to get the "h-ll" out of Finland with your Caddy and not look back! We are all very lucky to be able to buy gas at what seems to be much more reasonable prices here in the U.S. versus other countries.

Here's something that should make all of us pretty mad...........CITCO in Venezuela is around .18 cents a gallon U.S!

Here are the 10 Ten Cheapest gas prices in the world.....you'll need to move there or drive there to fill up the Deville!!!!!!!!!!!!:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2012/0229/World-s-cheapest-gas-Top-10-countries/Venezuela-0.18-per-gallon-0.05-per-liter

Last time the U.S. saw .18 cents per gallon was 1931-1941:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2005/fcvt_fotw364.html

Of course, there is always the alternative type of gas to run the Caddy on: :farting: Lets see our governments tax that!
 
#54 · (Edited)
.Not sure if Finland has LPG filling stations.
We don't have those for, but I think LPG is pretty easy to get and store in some big gas tank. Of course, there can be some law which denies that or something...

You need to get the "h-ll" out of Finland with your Caddy and not look back! We are all very lucky to be able to buy gas at what seems to be much more reasonable prices here in the U.S. versus other countries.
Well, this country has some flaws (maybe biggest flaw is traffic, the condition of roads and all those EU things which are ruining everything...) but there are pretty much things which are perfect in this country.:thumbsup:



And back to Cadillacs, I checked my back gears and they were a bit under 3. When I rotated my wheel two times round, the driveshaft rotated a bit less than 3 times. So, I think I have those 2.94:1 gears. The mark in driveshaft started to "retard" when I rotated my wheel 4 or 6 times.

Could it be possible that my stock torque converter could work with longer back gears?


Few days ago, I heard one rumour from american car mechanic. If I mix classic Dexron II atf and some wet brake oil 50%/50%, I could get an oil mix which doesn't slit as much as todays Dexron II. Has anyone else heard this kind of information?
 
#57 ·
Sorry I didn't get back to you 3dfx, I've been working on a "huge deal" to purchase prototype performance parts that were developed for the early Cadillac Motorsports Program for the 4.5/4.9 Cadillac's 88-96. I made the deal to save these parts and race motors from being throw out and made into scrap metal !
:dance:

I've been wanting to send a different e-mail for another opinion on this converter; just get second opinion. I just sent the e-mail and hopefully will hear back today or tomorrow. I was hoping that others would post, but I'll get that huge researched posted up I did way back on this topic and have even more to add.......

Stay tuned!
:burn:

Regards,
Chris
 
#58 · (Edited)
O.K. I'm going to try the best I can writing this one up as I'm no expert on Transmissions or Torque Converters! But I can give you my best feeling and educated guess on what to do based on my conversations with some of the experts of "High End" built converters unlike the regular known "Performance Brands" like TCI, B&M ect. ect........

The converters I'm going to talk about are really high end quality, all new billet designs, with a little secretiveness between each company's technology!

I spoke to both Terry Hedrick at Precision Industries Converters http://www.converter.com/ who built my converter based on my intensive research a few years ago for my 700R4 but haven't had my trans rebuilt yet. I also spoke to Mike Senia at YANK Converters http://www.converter.cc/ who gave me more favorable info on how he would build a Non-Lockup Converter for the TH400.

There are only a few company's out there who build high end converters and the average price is around $900. Many forums I've researched all say not to buy a cheep so called "Performance Converter" because you really get what you pay for and is a necessity for both efficient function and performance of the transmission.:yup:

These are full billet designs that are precision balanced, furnace brazed double-backed fin to avoid "fold over" from high engine torque, and the welds don't have globs of brass solder on the vanes which interrupts fluid dynamics and flow like seen on Precision page that all 3 companies do:
http://converter.com/why.htm

Just a few of these well known "Billet Converter Companies" are Precision "Vigilante", YANK, and Art Carr.

Here's some background on both Precision and YANK:

Terry Hedrick of Precision worked for Art Carr many years ago from what I read on other forums, and started his own company building high performance converters with improved designs from Art Carr and he is well respected in the industry. I've also heard, his company is small, but does build proprietary private label parts for other converter companies with his trusted technology and he is mostly known to build special converters for Diesel Trucks and is known to have proprietary clutch frictions .

YANK converters was started by Mike Senia and I know for a fact that Mike has close ties with GM Engineering and GM even turns to his company and him for consulting work on converters. Mike and his father have had a long history with GM as they were involved in factory custom coach building with GM back in the 60's thru 80's and being sponsored by GM's Motorsport race program for NHRA. Mike has factory GM transmission/converter testing dyno's along with a lot unlimited access to GM's Engineers ect. which I suppose helped him develop his technology in high performance converter designs. Mike is also head of product development/consultant for Cloyes Timing Chains/Gears! Mike also said to go with the Cloyes Race Billet Kit which will give you the ability to advance the MTS#3 cam 2 degrees on the crank sprocket which is better for low end torque. I say to also always degree the cam in with a degree wheel kit so you know exactly how the cam is installed.

Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!

I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.
:2thumbs:
I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
http://www.evanscooling.com/

Basically, for better fuel efficiency and power, you want to advance timing, and valve timing to move the torque curve low in the RPM range, lean out the carb. and the Evans Coolant will allow you to do it without detonation. All racers and turbo guys use this stuff to avoid detonation. Hopefully I can get in touch with Al Betker as he's the authority to know what to do with the Big Block Cadillac Motors.


I don't know much about Art Carr Converters and Transmissions, http://www.cpttransmission.com/index.htm but the name is very well known in the early years of performance converter manufacturing and is also mentioned in the racing scene and forums along with Precision and YANK Converters being the better technology and design.

I asked a series of questions to Terry and told him I was going to post his answers on the forum. He gives some straight forward advice and opinions, but I was hoping for something more but he did try to answer each question, but did not give a price quote when I asked him in question #1.

**********************************************************************************
Here's my questions/answers to Terry Hedrick at Precision Converters after giving him the MTS#3 Cam Specs, Trans, Gear ratio, car info ect. :

#1. Can you build a custom converter for this car and send it to Finland Europe ....any est. on price for domestic sales also?...................HE DID NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

This "Forum Member" is located in Finland and there is a huge vintage Cadillac ownership there in Europe paying $9 a gallon to drive these cars so any converter improvement in fuel efficiency through a converter design will hopefully help.

From what I've been researching on many other forums, many people have said to stay with the TH400, but he wants fuel economy and its been debated if a 200R4 will hold, even if its built up. The 4L80 is probably the way to go for the high hp/tq of the 472 and fuel efficiency, but is an expensive conversion. Many have said not to use the 700R4 even if its built-up which apparently costs a lot to beef it up.

He wants the best fuel economy as possible and does not know what the best gears would be to match up to the cam, tq. conv., and trans. for best fuel economy. He currently has 2.94 rear gears.

#2. What is your advice for his set up?
To get the best fuel economy I would suggest using a transmission with a lock up torque converter and overdrive such as a 2004R.

I've read that there "IS and IS NOT" a lockup converter for the TH400 and I think I read that YANK did make a lock-up in the past along with some other mfgs.

#3. Does the trans need heavily modded for a lockup conversion?
We used to make a lock up 400 transmission kit and converter but do not any more because no one would spend the money.

I've read about the "Switch Pitch" TH400 also but don't really understand how it works and how to operate it. The transmission has the capability to alter the blade angle of the stator allowing for more or less torque multiplication.

Here is one of the concerns posted from that Cadillac Forum Member in Finland :

"If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"

#4. Can you answer this question for him?
The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.


#5. Can there be a similar problem if he went with a Gear Vendors on the TH400 and non-lockup?
The slip on take-off will be less.

BEST TO ALWAYS USE A TRANS. COOLER.


#6. Do you know how to get in touch with Al Betker who was the old owner of MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties) who developed that camshaft line years ago?
No

I did find a home phone number to Al Betker the old owner of MTS Maximum Torque Inc and his advice should be the best on everything to get that 22 MPG's from the cam he developed! I'll try calling him tomorrow....


#7. What benefits can your custom billet Converter do for this or any Big Block Caddy economy application? Without lockup capability there are not any.


Also, I see so much positive talk on the "Guys Who Know What Their Talking About Race Forums on Converters" and the only ones they mention without debate are your converters and Yanks, Art Carr.....no others!

#8. Do you guys do anything different in your custom billet converters vs. Yanks or are you guys basically using the same build/technology?
All different converter builders have their own theories of how converters work.
***********************************************************************************

Maybe I should've just spoke to Terry off the record for better info... I think he may have some limitations in his converter technology.

Here's what Mike from YANK said:

He can also have a custom billet NON- LOCKUP Converter built specifically for your 69' Deville's weight, MTS#3 Cam Specs, 2:94 gears which was the same info I gave Terry at Precision. Mike said this would be a custom designed 258 mm billet converter with higher Torque Multiplication. A 2.73 STR (Stall Torque Ratio which equals less throttle to get the car moving and will have a better efficiency in design. It will have totally different internals for quick coupling at low RPM with 97% efficiency vs. the factory design of 83% efficiency which will result in 8-12% + performance increase and 7% gain in fuel millage. $895+$115 Shipping.

He said as an example, if your car currently gets 10 mpgs. It will now gain 11 mpgs. Or if you currently get 15 mpgs from optimizing your ignition, carburation, cam ect. you will then get 17mpgs. The highly efficient converter is a way to optimize the transmission and is an area that can be greatly improved over the factory design and other performance converters.

He said they did make a Lockup Converter for the TH400 but you would need a whole custom trans. at $4000 + $2000 for the special converter and would only gain 3-4% fuel millage. They made this lock-up conversion many years ago, because there was no high horsepower lock-up transmission available until performance parts were eventually developed for building up 200r4's and 700r4's including the development of the 4L80 which all made the specially designed lock-up 400 obsolete. It was an ingenious but expensive design that was not very popular due to the expense :yup:

Then there is the rare GM designed "Switch Pitch TH400 Transmission" which was a incredible design in converter/transmission technology.
http://www.google.com/search?q=switch+pitch+transmission&rlz=1C1LAVF_enUS383US415&aq=1&oq=switch+pitch+&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Mike also said he has a few pumps, turbine heads, input shafts for the "Switch Pitch TH400" which worked by being able to adjust the pitch of the stator vanes inside the converter and decreased torque multiplication when coming to a stop and was hooked up to either a manual switch or the brake pedal switch and had a high stall at 1900-2200. This was a very unique and limited transmission and still advanced technolgy to todays standards, but is also antiquated and very expensive when a 200R4 can be built-up cheaper according to these Art Carr Article's which I believe you should really now consider doing a built up performance 200R4 and using a YANK lockup converter:
:2thumbs:

SEE 3 MAGAZINE ARTICLES HERE ON BUILDING UP A PERFORMANCE 200R4 :
http://www.cpttransmission.com/media.htm

I will have to see if Art Carr will provide me with a parts list for building up the 200R4. I'm certain they do not develop their own parts so with some research, I may be able to find out who they are buying from.

Most of their high performance parts are probably developed by SONNAX and if not, then Sonnax should know who.
http://www.sonnax.com/

This company called PACT Transmission has a huge mega website. They've been actually known to develop their own performance parts for the 700R4 and other transmissions and maybe selling to Art Carr or vise versa.:noidea:

You can actually spend days reading their site but I believe many of the same parts can be found through other suppliers. I've heard good and bad things about their built transmissions, but some of their custom parts are their own unique designs.
P.A.C.T. 200R4 Tip Sheet: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/2004RTIP.htm

PACT 200R4 Parts Page:
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm


Those pages above will at least give you an idea of the performance parts list, along with the Art Carr articles on building up a 200R4. :yup:

If you go with a 200R4, I would rely on a YANK converter because now that I know about Mike Senia's history with GM and from what I read what all another forums say about his company and converters. However, when I was was worried about my decision with the Precision Converter I bought for my 91 Brougham t00r4 but he said not to worry that I got a good converter from Terry at Precision. I just have a feeling that the YANK converters are better in design.

If you get a non-lockup for the TH400 or a lock-up for a 200R4, definitely get a Trans Cooler to protect that expensive converter and the transmission. It's just a good thing to have as cheep insurance.

Video/Article on YANK Converters:
http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/drivetrain/track-testing-yanks-trailblazer-ss-converters/


Hope this helps a little!

Regards,
Chris:smilewide:
 
#59 · (Edited)
I forgot to add the price from YANK and I added it above. I had to Edit like 20 times because I went over the "15,000" character/letter limit because my post was so long!
:bonkers: :rofl: :duh:

It's $895 + $115 shipping to Finland Europe for a Non-Lockup Converter on the TH400 Transmission...

I'll have to call Terry at Precision Industries and ask why he didn't quote a price, unless they don't ship to Europe.
 
#60 ·
Ok, I read your post and It was very interesting to read.

"If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"

#4. Can you answer this question for him?
The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.
This is great news, My driving is 85% highway driving so, these "take-off problems" don't affect me. Of course, If I'm going to put higher gears to lower my rpm, I will install tranny temp. meter and tranny cooler as well. First I have to find out does my car have any stock cooler in it.

Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!

I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.

I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
http://www.evanscooling.com/
This coolant seems interesting. One thing which was unclear is the freezing point of this stuff. In Finland, the freezing point should be at least -30 degrees celsius.



I think I will first focus to my engine. First thing in the spring I will do pressure test, pass-leak test and the de-carbonising with some kind of chemical. I don't know do we have Seafoam here in Finland, but we have some (very expensive) Forte-chemicals. They should be professional quality stuff. I have used their radiator cleaner with my Saab, and it did the job very well. Now my coolant is good looking green and not dirty, rusty red. I think I use that same radiator cleaner with my Cadillac. The radiator seemed pretty dirty (that white stuff which comes with the water was everywhere, I dont know what that's stuff's name in english)

I will adjust my points and ignition, when I checked my ignition basic timing in last summer, it was something like 30-40 degrees BTDC. I tried to adjust it but my distributor was so jammed that it did not move...I hadn't been adjusted in ages:crying:

I must change oils in the spring too. I'll take my oil pan off and check if it has any sign of worn timing chain gears in it. If I find some of those gear parts, I'll take my engine out of the car and do complete engine repair and change all worn parts, bearings, piston rings etc. I replace the stock cam with MTS economy cam as well.

If I can't find any traces of broken timing gears, I will drive next summer and start engine repairs in fall when I got warm place to do those things.



By the way, I went to try if my Cadillac still starts easily. It has been in place for 3 to 4 winter months. The starter revolved the engine couple of rounds and BOOM, the engine was running!:D Some people here say that old american motors don't start in winter because it's too cold. I wonder if thats true...At least my motor started, and it was -10 degrees celsius when I started it..
 
#61 · (Edited)
I had some spare time today and I checked some pointless ignition conversion things.

Petronix has Ignitor branded ignition systems. They are just replacing the points in ignition system and I could use same distributor as before.

Is that Petronix ignitor as good as HEI conversion? That Ignitor costs here 170 euros ( sounds very expensive, I think its lot cheaper in US). Will it worth the price? Petronix system would be more easier than some other HEI system with different advance curves. If I convert to ptronix, should I buy different ignition coil, some kind of "high power"?

"Real" HEI would cost a bit less than 300$ (230 euros?). Does those HEI distributosr have problems with getting spark advance curves right? Or doest it even fit my cadillac? I heard somewhere that power steering pump must be replaced too if I want to use HEI distributor?

Some people here say that converting to Petronix ignitor will give 5litres/100km boost to consumption. That would be great!

Does anyone have any experience about those ignition systems and their affects to MPG?

What about those double point distributors? How will they work?
 
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