O.K. I'm going to try the best I can writing this one up as I'm no expert on Transmissions or Torque Converters! But I can give you my best feeling and educated guess on what to do based on my conversations with some of the experts of "High End" built converters unlike the regular known "Performance Brands" like TCI, B&M ect. ect........
The converters I'm going to talk about are really high end quality, all new billet designs, with a little secretiveness between each company's technology!
I spoke to both Terry Hedrick at Precision Industries Converters
http://www.converter.com/ who built my converter based on my intensive research a few years ago for my 700R4 but haven't had my trans rebuilt yet. I also spoke to Mike Senia at YANK Converters
http://www.converter.cc/ who gave me more favorable info on how he would build a Non-Lockup Converter for the TH400.
There are only a few company's out there who build high end converters and the average price is around $900. Many forums I've researched all say not to buy a cheep so called "Performance Converter" because you really get what you pay for and is a necessity for both efficient function and performance of the transmission.:yup:
These are full billet designs that are precision balanced, furnace brazed double-backed fin to avoid "fold over" from high engine torque, and the welds don't have globs of brass solder on the vanes which interrupts fluid dynamics and flow like seen on Precision page that all 3 companies do:
http://converter.com/why.htm
Just a few of these well known "Billet Converter Companies" are Precision "Vigilante", YANK, and Art Carr.
Here's some background on both Precision and YANK:
Terry Hedrick of Precision worked for Art Carr many years ago from what I read on other forums, and started his own company building high performance converters with improved designs from Art Carr and he is well respected in the industry. I've also heard, his company is small, but does build proprietary private label parts for other converter companies with his trusted technology and he is mostly known to build special converters for Diesel Trucks and is known to have proprietary clutch frictions .
YANK converters was started by Mike Senia and I know for a fact that Mike has close ties with GM Engineering and GM even turns to his company and him for consulting work on converters. Mike and his father have had a long history with GM as they were involved in factory custom coach building with GM back in the 60's thru 80's and being sponsored by GM's Motorsport race program for NHRA. Mike has factory GM transmission/converter testing dyno's along with a lot unlimited access to GM's Engineers ect. which I suppose helped him develop his technology in high performance converter designs. Mike is also head of product development/consultant for Cloyes Timing Chains/Gears! Mike also said to go with the Cloyes Race Billet Kit which will give you the ability to advance the MTS#3 cam 2 degrees on the crank sprocket which is better for low end torque. I say to also always degree the cam in with a degree wheel kit so you know exactly how the cam is installed.
Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!
I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.
:2thumbs:
I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
http://www.evanscooling.com/
Basically, for better fuel efficiency and power, you want to advance timing, and valve timing to move the torque curve low in the RPM range, lean out the carb. and the Evans Coolant will allow you to do it without detonation. All racers and turbo guys use this stuff to avoid detonation. Hopefully I can get in touch with Al Betker as he's the authority to know what to do with the Big Block Cadillac Motors.
I don't know much about Art Carr Converters and Transmissions,
http://www.cpttransmission.com/index.htm but the name is very well known in the early years of performance converter manufacturing and is also mentioned in the racing scene and forums along with Precision and YANK Converters being the better technology and design.
I asked a series of questions to Terry and told him I was going to post his answers on the forum. He gives some straight forward advice and opinions, but I was hoping for something more but he did try to answer each question, but did not give a price quote when I asked him in question #1.
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Here's my questions/answers to Terry Hedrick at Precision Converters after giving him the MTS#3 Cam Specs, Trans, Gear ratio, car info ect. :
#1. Can you build a custom converter for this car and send it to Finland Europe ....any est. on price for domestic sales also?...................HE DID NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
This "Forum Member" is located in Finland and there is a huge vintage Cadillac ownership there in Europe paying $9 a gallon to drive these cars so any converter improvement in fuel efficiency through a converter design will hopefully help.
From what I've been researching on many other forums, many people have said to stay with the TH400, but he wants fuel economy and its been debated if a 200R4 will hold, even if its built up. The 4L80 is probably the way to go for the high hp/tq of the 472 and fuel efficiency, but is an expensive conversion. Many have said not to use the 700R4 even if its built-up which apparently costs a lot to beef it up.
He wants the best fuel economy as possible and does not know what the best gears would be to match up to the cam, tq. conv., and trans. for best fuel economy. He currently has 2.94 rear gears.
#2. What is your advice for his set up?
To get the best fuel economy I would suggest using a transmission with a lock up torque converter and overdrive such as a 2004R.
I've read that there "IS and IS NOT" a lockup converter for the TH400 and I think I read that YANK did make a lock-up in the past along with some other mfgs.
#3. Does the trans need heavily modded for a lockup conversion?
We used to make a lock up 400 transmission kit and converter but do not any more because no one would spend the money.
I've read about the "Switch Pitch" TH400 also but don't really understand how it works and how to operate it. The transmission has the capability to alter the blade angle of the stator allowing for more or less torque multiplication.
Here is one of the concerns posted from that Cadillac Forum Member in Finland :
"If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"
#4. Can you answer this question for him?
The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.
#5. Can there be a similar problem if he went with a Gear Vendors on the TH400 and non-lockup?
The slip on take-off will be less.
BEST TO ALWAYS USE A TRANS. COOLER.
#6. Do you know how to get in touch with Al Betker who was the old owner of MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties) who developed that camshaft line years ago?
No
I did find a home phone number to Al Betker the old owner of MTS Maximum Torque Inc and his advice should be the best on everything to get that 22 MPG's from the cam he developed! I'll try calling him tomorrow....
#7. What benefits can your custom billet Converter do for this or any Big Block Caddy economy application?
Without lockup capability there are not any.
Also, I see so much positive talk on the "Guys Who Know What Their Talking About Race Forums on Converters" and the only ones they mention without debate are your converters and Yanks, Art Carr.....no others!
#8. Do you guys do anything different in your custom billet converters vs. Yanks or are you guys basically using the same build/technology?
All different converter builders have their own theories of how converters work.
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Maybe I should've just spoke to Terry off the record for better info... I think he may have some limitations in his converter technology.
Here's what Mike from YANK said:
He can also have a custom billet NON- LOCKUP Converter built specifically for your 69' Deville's weight, MTS#3 Cam Specs, 2:94 gears which was the same info I gave Terry at Precision. Mike said this would be a custom designed 258 mm billet converter with higher Torque Multiplication. A 2.73 STR (Stall Torque Ratio which equals less throttle to get the car moving and will have a better efficiency in design. It will have totally different internals for quick coupling at low RPM with 97% efficiency vs. the factory design of 83% efficiency which will result in 8-12% + performance increase and 7% gain in fuel millage.
$895+$115 Shipping.
He said as an example, if your car currently gets 10 mpgs. It will now gain 11 mpgs. Or if you currently get 15 mpgs from optimizing your ignition, carburation, cam ect. you will then get 17mpgs. The highly efficient converter is a way to optimize the transmission and is an area that can be greatly improved over the factory design and other performance converters.
He said they did make a Lockup Converter for the TH400 but you would need a whole custom trans. at $4000 + $2000 for the special converter and would only gain 3-4% fuel millage. They made this lock-up conversion many years ago, because there was no high horsepower lock-up transmission available until performance parts were eventually developed for building up 200r4's and 700r4's including the development of the 4L80 which all made the specially designed lock-up 400 obsolete. It was an ingenious but expensive design that was not very popular due to the expense :yup:
Then there is the rare GM designed "Switch Pitch TH400 Transmission" which was a incredible design in converter/transmission technology.
http://www.google.com/search?q=switch+pitch+transmission&rlz=1C1LAVF_enUS383US415&aq=1&oq=switch+pitch+&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Mike also said he has a few pumps, turbine heads, input shafts for the "Switch Pitch TH400" which worked by being able to adjust the pitch of the stator vanes inside the converter and decreased torque multiplication when coming to a stop and was hooked up to either a manual switch or the brake pedal switch and had a high stall at 1900-2200. This was a very unique and limited transmission and still advanced technolgy to todays standards, but is also antiquated and very expensive when a 200R4 can be built-up cheaper according to these Art Carr Article's which I believe you should really now
consider doing a built up performance 200R4 and using a YANK lockup converter:
:2thumbs:
SEE 3 MAGAZINE ARTICLES HERE ON BUILDING UP A PERFORMANCE 200R4 :
http://www.cpttransmission.com/media.htm
I will have to see if Art Carr will provide me with a parts list for building up the 200R4. I'm certain they do not develop their own parts so with some research, I may be able to find out who they are buying from.
Most of their high performance parts are probably developed by SONNAX and if not, then Sonnax should know who.
http://www.sonnax.com/
This company called PACT Transmission has a huge mega website. They've been actually known to develop their own performance parts for the 700R4 and other transmissions and maybe selling to Art Carr or vise versa.:noidea:
You can actually spend days reading their site but I believe many of the same parts can be found through other suppliers. I've heard good and bad things about their built transmissions, but some of their custom parts are their own unique designs.
P.A.C.T. 200R4 Tip Sheet: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/2004RTIP.htm
PACT 200R4 Parts Page:
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm
Those pages above will at least give you an idea of the performance parts list, along with the Art Carr articles on building up a 200R4. :yup:
If you go with a 200R4, I would rely on a YANK converter because now that I know about Mike Senia's history with GM and from what I read what all another forums say about his company and converters. However, when I was was worried about my decision with the Precision Converter I bought for my 91 Brougham t00r4 but he said not to worry that I got a good converter from Terry at Precision. I just have a feeling that the YANK converters are better in design.
If you get a non-lockup for the TH400 or a lock-up for a 200R4, definitely get a Trans Cooler to protect that expensive converter and the transmission. It's just a good thing to have as cheep insurance.
Video/Article on YANK Converters:
http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/drivetrain/track-testing-yanks-trailblazer-ss-converters/
Hope this helps a little!
Regards,
Chris:smilewide: