Cadillac Owners Forum banner

472, how to boost fuel economy?

91K views 167 replies 26 participants last post by  cadchris 
#1 ·
Hi

I have -69 De Ville. When i bought it, car was not maintained in ages and it had very bad fuel economy, 12MPG in road drive.

Well, I replaced old airfilter and oilfilter (+oil of course) with new ones and economy went little better (13MPG).

Is there any way to lower the MPG? I have heard some people get 17 or even 18MPG fuel comsumination? With todays gas prices (1,7€/litre here in Finland, if i calculated correctly, that would mean, 8,6$/gallon:bonkers:)

Maybe I should change some ignition components such as spark plugs and breaker points. At least those looked pretty old. Are there any differences between different sparkplugs? Can I get any benefit from sparkplugs like iridium or platinum with my mechanical ignition system, or should I just buy traditional plugs like AC Delco?

I think my ignition timing is too early (something like 30-50 degrees early). Does this effect much to fuel consume?

Second thing is the carburetor. I think I'm going to do some mainteance in there too and change at least the float needle valve. I checked my cars emissions in local garage, and they were very nice, so air/gas mixtures are fine. What other things I should change there?


Are there any other things what would affect to fuel economy? I dont have EGR, Pulse air systems or any other emission control equipment.

PS. Sorry if my english was bad
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Welcome to the forum.
What kind of driving are these values calculated from?
12-13mpg city driving would be fantastic.
if it's on the highway, what speed? What are your driving habits?
How are the tires? bald or low pressure tires use a lot more gas.
Timing will most certainly affect fuel efficiency.
If your ignition components look old, they would be one of the first things I'd replace regardless of efficiency considerations.
 
#4 ·
I am a old school type of guy. And a lot of guys with these motors use old style copper plugs, and I did for many years... But a year and a half ago I put in a set of denso iridium... They have been working great and would recomend using the denso plugs...I would also recomend a HEI distrubtor with the vacume advance hooked direct to manifold vacume.. do not go through the temp switches.. Make sure that the distrubtor weights are free and working correctly.. I would set the timing like this... disconnect vacume advance vac hose... rev the motor to 2500rpm or till you are at max centrifical advance and setr te timing to 35 degrees... If it pings back it off till it stops... but with 93 octane it should be ok.. If you are forced to use 87 octane it is going to be very hard with a carb... A bit eazier with fuel injection..
 
#7 ·
All you can do is make sure the tires are at proper pressure, points and vacuum advance are new, distributor weights free. Points dwell at 30 degrees. Timing at spec or 2 degrees advanced. Wheel alignment to spec. Drive like you have an egg under your foot! If the smog readings are good then the carb float and needle and seat are good. Make sure the 4 bolts holding the carb are tight, most are 2 turns loose. You will get many opinions regarding spark plugs. In my opinion, use A/C Delco's as recommended.
 
#8 ·
12-13mpg sounds about right for that engine. Also keep in mind that you need to put a lead additive in the gas if the car still has its original valve seats. I know if you ever have the heads rebuilt they'll put in hardened valve seats like modern cars have so it will run fine on unleaded gas.
 
#9 ·
I have a '69 Sedan de Ville: New tires with right pressure, new points, sparks, rotor, points, distributor cap... The best mileage I did is 11 mpg during my first travel from the city I bought it to home. 80-90 Kmph. before changing all the components above mentioned. Now at 100-110 Kmph never better than 10 mpg. (Sorry, I can´t enjoy it going slower :D)

Things I could improve on my car: better spark plugs (Now I have Motorcraft, that I don´t think are the best for this car) and carburetor, though I don´t have any driving or starting problems with it, but the mechanic advised me to change it when I can afford it.

I know it´s hard driving these cars here in Europe: 1.37 € / Liter in Spain but lower salaries (and keep lowering due to the rampant crisis).

Welcome to the forum and please, upload some pics of your car. This is my resto thread: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forum...6-69-sedan-de-ville-official-restoration.html You may take a look when you have some time ;)

By the way, You can rent your car for weddings or other events. That way you will drive your caddy on these occasions without any worry about mileage. Some weeks ago I did 225 kilometers during a wedding transportation. Gas paid and some profit to help maintenance :D
 
#11 ·
You have to realize these are heavy cars and the engine produces the torque necessary to move it smoothly, with little effort. The Rochester Quardrajet front two venturi are most efficient and offer better fuel economy than most 2 bbl carbs on the market. In fact the two rear venturi are only in use on demand, when the air flow exceeds the capacity of the front venturi. They are subject to wear at the main throttle shaft bores.
To check throttle shaft bore wear, remove the air filter and with the engine at idle, gently lift the main throttle shaft on the driver side of the carb at the lever for the throttle linkage. If worn excessively, the excess air drawn in arount the shaft and bore may cause the engine to lean out. If there is little free play here, your carb body/shaft is in good condition.
 
#12 ·
If you want to keep the original engine, in my opinion, the only way to significantly increase gas mileage is to get a transmission adapter for your engine, and bolt up a 700R4 automatic transmission behind it. That way, you'll at least get overdrive. That should bring up the mileage a few notches.
My 1956 Cad has one and I get between 19-21 mpg/ highway driving...and this car weighs over 5000 pounds.
 
#15 ·
This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.

In my opinion, just make sure everything is in top running order. It is good that you can have your exhaust gas emissions monitored, this will greatly help with tuning. Fresh plugs, properly gapped, wires, cap, rotor, set timing. If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type. A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:



The best to hope for
 
#17 ·
This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.
Actually, my '56 has 3.07, which is the original gear. What are the gears of a 69? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but FWB, Roadmaster and Caprice's have 2.56 and 2.93 gears as hwy option for better mileage, with a 700R4 or 4L60E (same basic trans.). This combination gives the best highway mileage than with mid-3's and higher gears. You only lose out a little on acceleration. Since I've changed to 3.23 gears (from 2.56) in my 94 Fleetwood, the mileage dropped slightly,but performance increased. You also have to put the correct torque converter with the proper lock-up.

----------

I just looked it up and apparently, the 69 Cadillac has a 2.94 ratio, so putting a 700R4 with proper torque converter lock-up should improve mileage.
 
#13 ·
Alscad56 said:
If you want to keep the original engine, in my opinion, the only way to significantly increase gas mileage is to get a transmission adapter for your engine, and bolt up a 700R4 automatic transmission behind it. That way, you'll at least get overdrive. That should bring up the mileage a few notches.
My 1956 Cad has one and I get between 19-21 mpg/ highway driving...and this car weighs over 5000 pounds.
Thats pretty good mileage for a large vehicle. Wonder what mileage a 500 would get with an overdrive trans.
 
#19 ·
Wow, everyone already posted some of my ideas and I give them credit. Your getting very good advice here.

This turned out to be a long post of info! I'm sure there will be those who wish I didn't post it because its' so long, but it should be very informative for all.......
Grab some coffee's, tea's, or beers because by the time everyone gets through this long post your going to be WIRED :banana: and DRUNK!:alchi: or a little Brain Fried! :bulging:

I just like to post back-up info and links to what I'm talking about so everyone can make better decisions......I love new automotive technology and apply it to old cars!

I'd stay with the Delco plugs, and go 1-2 ranges colder then bump up timing to see what you can get without detonation and lean out the carb.....Old saying "Lean Is Mean"!

One of the best ways to tune even a carburated engine on the road is with a WideBand O2 sensor. They're pretty affordable now. The best one is made by INNOVATE:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


Here's one for $167 U.S. Ebay has many listed.
http://preracing.com/product_info.php/innovate-dbred-gauge-lc1-kit-wideband-oxygen-sensor-p-1573

Definitely do an HEI Distributor! Maybe with an adjustable vacuum advance....I think Crane makes them.


Here's some very good info on 472 HEI Conversion!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/41240-68-472-hei-conversion.html

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/500-472-425-368/30891-hei-installed.html

"Look for a 74-79 Cadillac with a 472/500/425 for the HEI Distributor".......
http://caddy500.com/index.php?topic=1047.0



HEI Distributors 472:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/year/1969/make/cadillac/model/deville/department/ignitions-electrical/part-type/distributors

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8363/overview/year/1969/make/cadillac/model/deville


Transmission:

Go with the 700R4 transmission if it can be adapted but it will need to be built stronger to handle the power/torque of the 472 engine. Transmission Center lists many upgrades for a 700R4 also known as the 4L60.

Maybe post your question here: http://forums.500cid.com/showthread.php?t=636

Ask these guys at Transmission Center:
http://transmissioncenter.net/700R4_Swap_Info.htm

Maybe go from the 3.94:1 gears down to 3.08's or lower...not sure what will fit that rear axle.


There is also a transmission device called "Gear Vendors" which will give you an external over-drive on your TH400 Transmission. It will actually turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed automatic! See videos for explanation especially the video titled "Two Guys Garage" on this page:
http://www.gearvendors.com/videoclips.html

Carburetor:

Edlebrock Manifold with an Edlebrock Carb: That should increase fuel efficiency.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/cadillac/performer.shtml

Edlebrock Carbs:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/carbs_access_main.shtml

As mentioned before, you could always do fuel injection. There are many aftermarket easy to install and self learning performance fuel injection kits on both port injection or a "Throttle Body" setup which would improve fuel efficiancy. Edlebrock sells EFI kits, including full crate motors, HEI ignitions, ect.......

Or you could always put a fully built LS Motor in, and is already tuned with and ECM controller from GM Performance Parts::worship:
http://www.gmperformancemotor.com/category/ERODE.html


Sorry..........got carried away.........this stuff cost a lot of money!:bouncy: :duh:


Anyway, back to basics...just like you were advised to replace many of the tune-up parts, My rational that I'm a huge advocate of:

"Clean the motor out to improve on its efficiency then use a high end Synthetic Oil."


Below are some basic cleaning procedures to perform on your engine. Maybe you already have done this to some extent......

#1. What is the health of your motor?

#2. Does it burn oil?

#3. Have you performed a compression test both hot and cold and have you ever had a leak-down test?

#4. Have you ever had this motor run on an Ignition Scope which will tell you almost everything of the condition of the mechanical, fuel system, and ignition system?

It would be great if you could find a repair shop with either an old fashion Ignition Scope or even a modern day fancy scope like these. One is called a ACE Misfire and the other is popular in Europe called a Pico Scope that can do everything from compression test, to ignition scope and is very simple. For a small shop fee, it can give you a wealth of info very quickly about your motor both mechanical and ignition:
http://acemisfire.com/D_Kit

http://www.picoauto.com/engine-diagnostics-sensor.html

http://www.picoauto.com/automotive-software.html


#5. Have you ever had the heads off to see if the valves and piston tops are loaded with thick carbon?

Carbon on the backs of valves and on the tops of pistons really affects fuel efficiancey. The carbon on the tops of the pistons raises the compression ratio which requires more fuel to stop detonation or, you will find yourself retarding the ignition timing to stop the detonation which greatly affects the motors efficiency. Carbon on the back of the intake valve will act like a sponge and soak up your fuel charge and again cause inefficient combustion.

#6. Have you ever de-carboned this motor?

Here in the U.S., there are a few ways to de-carbonize an engine. The first and slowest way is to use a fuel tank additive that contains a high concentration of PEA (Poly Ether Amine) which was developed by Chevron in the 1970's when the U.S switched to Un-leaded fuel with this additive to help eliminate the carbon problems. This product was called and trademarked as TECHRON. Gas that contained lead actually left a coating on the valves, pistons, combustion chamber which prevented carbon from hardening and building up. Here's a good explanation:
http://www.techron.com/what-does-it-do/default.aspx#

Today, many fuel tank additives contain PEA to break down combustion chamber/intake valve carbon, but most are proprietary in concentration. One additive that has the highest in by RedLine SI-1 which is the strongest detergent with PEA available at around 45%-50%. Techron by the bottle has been rumored to only have around 30%.

Fuels around the world use low concentrations of PEA like Shell, Texaco, Chevron with a concentration of around 3-5% or more at the pump depending on what other countries require. Here's an explanation called TOP TIER GAS: http://www.toptiergas.com/

All about the effects of Carbon:
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/052008_09.pdf
or
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1317

There are also products to quickly de-carbon a motor that are slowly poured into the Carburetor/Throttle Body. The most popular product in the U.S. is called Sea Foam. The best product was sold by GM and Cadillac Dealers for years and has been discontinued due to environmental laws since it created toxic fumes/smoke: "GM Top End Cleaner" was a very popular treatment for almost every car being serviced in the dealership and was used for years. Maybe your GM dealer in Europe still sells it: (GM Part# 1050002) or (part# 12345089).
Maybe try E-bay in Europe!

If you do a search on "GM Top End Cleaner", you will see many forums talking about its use. Here's one popular forum using other known good products like Amsoil Power Foam, Mopar cleaner, Johnson-Evenrude cleaner for decarbonizing boat motors.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1630937&page=1


Basically when using a "pour-down-throttle body/carb" product, the engine must be warm, then raise the engine to 1500-2000 RPM then slowly pour the product down the carb. and it will smoke heavily. When your almost finished with the product, pour last 1/4 of can in quickly to stall the motor and let it sit for 24-48hrs +. Then start it up, and rev it.....the exhaust will really smoke ....then fill the can with water, and raise the RPM's and slowly pour water down the carb while revving the motor. This is an old trick that even GM advocated in order to steam the carbon off the pistons.

There are also other alternative "pour in throttle body/carburetor" type cleaners that maybe you are familiar with called Lubro-Moly Ventil Sauber made in Germany. See here:
http://blog.bavauto.com/5000/bmw-mini-ventil-sauber-hot-soak-engine-carbon-cleaning/

Liqui-Moly also has other very good products like their oil additive called MoS2 but you may not be able to use it and should ask them if you should use only an additive with ZDDP to protect your old camshaft.
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_1011.html?Opendocument&land=GB&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

Pg.1 http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_additives_nt0001e4fe.html?Opendocument&land=GB&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

Pg.2 http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_additives_nt0001e4fe.html?Open&land=GB&site=2&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf

I would even consider using a product to clean the oiling system up and which supposedly cleans the pistons ring packs. An old and popular product sold in the US is called Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) and another product that seems to be advocated is called AutoRX. Many people talk about it on an Oil Review Forum called "BOB IS THE OIL GUY" .
http://www.auto-rx.com/instructions.shtml

Recently, I purchased this machine here in the U.S. for fuel injection called Terra Clean after reading about it in that "MOTOR Magazine" article I posted above. I got a new $1000 machine for $125 on Ebay!!!!! A few years ago, it was reviewed on our automotive TV shows but never caught on but is very popular in Canada. This de-carbonizing machine is very different from other machines on the market and they can also do this treatment on a carburated engine:

TerraClean U.S.A site: http://www.terraclean.net/news.php
TerraClean U.K. site http://www.terraclean.co.uk/

Here are some pretty intelligent people who discuss lubricants ect and another good product to clean the motor is called KREEN:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2250864&page=1



Synthetic Oil with ZDDP:
Amsoil synthetic engine oil, trans fluid, axle fluid or some other high end synthetic available in Europe but use one with high levels of ZDDP which is needed and protects older motors camshafts ect.

http://classiccars.about.com/od/maintenancetips/a/Zddp-Debunking-The-Urban-Legend-This-Motor-Oil-Additive.htm

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/z-rod-10w-30-synthetic-motor-oil/

Amsoil Nano Air Filters to keeps the oil very clean and are high flowing vs. K&N:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/filters-and-by-pass-systems/air/amsoil-ea-carbureted-engine-air-filters-and-kits/

http://www.hotrodhotline.com/pr/2009/09zzdpoilmarch/

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_engineoils4stroke_nt0001edae.html?Open&land=GB&site=1&voilalang=e&voiladb=web.nsf



Again: My rational, is to try and clean the motor out to improve on its efficiency then use a high end Synthetic Oil including a small amount of Redline Si-1 Fuel cleaner or other additive with PEA in every tank full of fuel to keep everything clean and/or even a lead substitute in the fuel.


I hope some of this info helps,

Regards,
Chris
 
#22 ·
Oops, I read the original post a few days ago, then responded later. Somehow I was thinking of later mid 70s 472s when I posted. Yes, if the rear ratio is in the 3s, OD will help. OR, swap in one of the high gear sets from a mid 70s-81 car. Your acceleration will not be as brisk, but you will see the same effective final drive ratio as the OD swap. It will also cost less, and will swap right in with no mods to the car.
 
#30 ·
None of the rear axle stuff fits in these older cars. After '76 Cadillac became a lot more like the rest of GM.

IIRC there was also a 3:15:1 rear axle ratio for trailer towing or limo back in the day.

A 4L80e would help a lot on highway driving but so little or nothing around town. It would take a long time to pay for itself. That swap needs a computer to go along.

4L60 I can envision broken parts everywhere after a few full throttle takeoffs.
 
#25 ·
Thanks for all for your answers!

If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type.
I don't have cat in my car. In Finland, cat became mandatory as late as 1992. In older cars, you don't have to have catalytic converters. Every year emission measurements came mandatory in 1978 and that gives old car tuners some freedom to built engine. Usually all emission control components are taken away from cars before tight emission standards in 1992.

A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:
I have free flowing dual exhaust in my car.





Definitely do an HEI Distributor! Maybe with an adjustable vacuum advance....I think Crane makes them.
I have to check condition of my stock distributor. If It is in bad shape, I will change to HEI. They have a test bench for old distributors here in local techical school, so I take my distributor to them.


There is also a transmission device called "Gear Vendors" which will give you an external over-drive on your TH400 Transmission. It will actually turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed automatic!
Does this thing really work in tranny with no lock-up torque converter?

That thing makes engine run slower->more slippage in torque converter= heat problems and not much better mileage.

Personally I think that only way to get better mileage from tranny is to change the whole thing to another. 4L60 or 4L80 would be an option if my original transmission starts to wreck in some point. The big question is: Does it make any sence to buy new tranny (3500-4000$ or even more) when I can get over 1800 liters of gas with the same money? I think yes if I had some extra money and no if I don't have. Right now I don't have that much extra money so I make that tranny change in future.

By the way, does those 4L60 and 4L80 (and 4L85) trannys chage gears as smooth as the original TH400?

Edlebrock Manifold with an Edlebrock Carb: That should increase fuel efficiency.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...erformer.shtml
Here people have pretty much those Edelbrocks in old american cars, so It should not be difficult to find one used. And of course we have Ebay:2thumbs:

#1. What is the health of your motor?
It runs smoothly and emissions were good. Motor does not have any oil leaks.

#2. Does it burn oil?
Yes, about 1 liter/1000miles.

#3. Have you performed a compression test both hot and cold and have you ever had a leak-down test?
No I haven't. I think I'll do those in spring when I start to drive with my caddy again.

#4. Have you ever had this motor run on an Ignition Scope which will tell you almost everything of the condition of the mechanical, fuel system, and ignition system?
No I haven't. I should ask local shops if they have that kind of systems.

#5. Have you ever had the heads off to see if the valves and piston tops are loaded with thick carbon?
No, but I think they are full of carbon. When I bought this car, It was not maintenanced in ages so, why would someone remove the carbons if they even haven't changed the oil?

#6. Have you ever de-carboned this motor?
Nope. In Finland, we put some water in sprayer bottle and run engines on "high" rpm (rpm is dependent to engine) and spray some water fog in carburetor. That should clean the engine from carbon. Water is sprayed in carburetor as long as carbon comes out. This thing is easy to do in winter, when there is snow on the ground. You can look at the snow and if its black, engine is still dirty, if its white, engine is clean.

I would even consider using a product to clean the oiling system up and which supposedly cleans the pistons ring packs.
Does this have any risks?

I've heard that those products can block oil channels (wrong term??) when all that crap starts to move in engine. Of course in Finland, we have lots of smaller engines which have smaller oil channels. Does those products have any risk in bigger engines?

Amsoil synthetic engine oil, trans fluid, axle fluid or some other high end synthetic available in Europe but use one with high levels of ZDDP which is needed and protects older motors camshafts ect.
I have used Valvoline Turbo 10W-40 oil which should have ZDDP. I think I gonna change to VR-1. Is VR-1 good stuff? It has high grades of ZDDP, It's easy to get (many stores got that stuff in shelves) but its 5W-50 racing oil.

What oil I should pour into my transmission when I change tranny oil? Dexron II or A-type or what? Some pepole say that todays Dexron II oil will slip more than before when they made this stuff from whale oil? Is this true?
 
#29 · (Edited)
Well, I just spent the whole evening reading through 10 different forums and 20 threads about the 472/500 including transmission swaps and gears. For now; it's going to take some time to post this info with the links......but from what I've read, its from very genuine and authentic sources who know the 472/500..................

.......HOW DOES 22 MPG's SOUND FOR THE RECORD ON A 472 WITH A SPECIALLY DESIGNED CAMSHAFT SWAP?!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure there is more to it and you'll have to contact these manufactures and post on these different forums that I'll list.

Apparently, a lot guys are seeing 15-18 mpgs from matched gears to cams and transmission ect. Doesn't sound too expensive from what I've read. But, there is definitely a HUGE following of the 472/500 and a lot of research and design/ development in performance parts for those motors.

I'll try to post it all logically soon.


Anyway, I just wanted to comment on some of what you posted:


#1. Definitely put an HEI (High Energy Ignition) Distributor in this motor. It's solid state technology far surpasses the conventional points setup and will improve how this motor runs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor

HEI was a huge step in ignition technology from previous points design:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_energy_ignition

Although, HEI's do have some inherant problems. I've reserched this and have come up with many mods. to do on my 91 Eldo's HEI. One of the best things you can do for an "In cap Coil HEI" is to get that coil out of the cap! This reaquires a "Cap-Adapt" kit which allows you to run an external coil. The internal coil design gets really hot and is hard on the module. Also, there is a lot of EMI created by the "In-Cap" High Energy Coil which affects the module to false trigger which is why GM started to put a small metal shield over some HEI modules. Its just better to convert over to an external oil filled coil and not epoxy filled so it stays cool for stable output which is heavily debated by one expert in the industry by the name Dave Ray of Daves Small Body HEI's who also advocate the Large Cap HEI's that Ford used and improved on the GM HEI design which has wider spaces between terminal to prevent cross firing in the HEI Cap that the GM HEI's have problems with.

In addition, a module mounted under an "in cap coil", will heat up and it requires a special heat sink compound grease to transfer the heat out of the module and into the distributor body. Many use "Dielectric Grease" which is the wrong stuff and will insulate the module and not allow it to transfer the heat. The best heat sink grease to use is the same stuff used for your home computer's heatsink for the processor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_grease

I can do a whole write-up on the best greases and the right and wrong way to apply it........it should be applied in a long straight line and push the module into it and let the module spread the grease.........there are some good YOUTUBE Videos on the subject, but many say it's over-kill, but I've gone through some of the Accel junk performance modules and have learned my lesson. All internal distributor parts, including the module should be AC Delco!

Also, these HEI's require good clean power and should be wired with a quality relay and 10-8 awg wire. There is so much tech info I can post on modifying an HEI that many are not aware of.

In addition to all my research and the mods I'm going to do on my own HEI, I just found some EXCELLENT info. and one of the members is from a well known fuel injection service company, so this guy, if it's Jim Linder, definitely knows his stuff on GM HEI's, coils, and modules and this info would apply to any HEI setup.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=617596



#2. Regarding the Gear Vendors. From what I've read this evening, I was surprised it came up many times in different threads. Some say "yes", some say "no". The concensus is to go with a 700R4 but it definitely needs to be built stronger and it starts to get expensive. Other people have said to go with the 200R4. Some even say with the right cam and gears, the TH400 is still the strongest and can also get good fuel economy.......... I'll post those links for you soon.

You posted the 4L60. That is the same as the 700R4. Did you mean the 4L60E but many have also stated on those other forums to go with the 4L80E with an aftermarket transmission controller.


#3. I've read that some say Headers are a definite improvement on the 472/500's.


#4. As far as an Ignition Scope, many of the old guys were the true experts at reading the patterns. For the past 15 yrs, most factory technicians never used a scope and were not trained how to use them as they were old technology and they relied on their scan tools. In the recent years, there is been a lot of training ect. on how to use and read a scope pattern on new cars to help diagnose misfire ect. problems. Snap-On is a major manf. of scanners for newer computer controlled cars. They have integrated a scope in 2 of their newer scanners called the Modis and Versus.These handheld scopes are great for reading ignition patterns while driving just like those other scopes I listed previously. Originally, the scopes back in the 1960's 70's and 80's were made by SUN Electronics. They can be found in some old repair shops but were the most valuable diagnostic tool..here's what they look like:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-and-c2-corvettes/2184759-picked-up-a-few-sun-machines-this-weekend-pics.html


#5. Some people on those forums also spoke about the Edelbrock upgrades, but others said to go with even better set ups that you'll see in the followup posts that I'll put together.


#6. There is a lot more to Decarboning a motor other than only using water. Unless you have a "Fiber Optic Borescope" and can verify that only water works, I can tell you with great certainty, water alone does not work. I have a borescope and have verified many different products and how each works including water. The only thing you are removing is mostly "rich soot" and maybe some softer carbon by just using water alone. If you can see small chucks, then yes its working somewhat but you need a chemical to heatsoak into the hard layer of carbon to soften it before using the water. Also, its going to take a lot more water than a spray bottle. If you mist the water in, it will have already vaporized way before it even gets down the runner to the intake valve, combustion chamber and piston. Many times, I have trickled in 1-2 liters of water down a carb or throttle body on newer cars and have never hydrolocked a motor or bent a rod. It's not going to happen on that 472! You just trickle (just a little less than a steady stream) and enough to get the water to the valves and combustion chamber where it vaporizes and cracks the carbon off. This is how the old GM Caddy mechanics taught me how to do it.

Funny, I remember stories these guys told that they used to throw hand fulls of rice down the carb's of Flat Head Fords to get the carbon out! Many years ago, there was a system that used crushed Walnut Shells under forced air and vacuumed out to de-carbon motors!

Hmmm, I bet a hand full of snow could do wonders to decarbon an engine!:hmm::histeric:

You just need a chemical process to heat soak and soften the carbon, and the fuel additive with the highest PEA like Redline SI-1 to really break down the carbon.



#7. As far as cleaning the oil system; have you ever had the valve cover off or the oil pan? If the sludge is greater than 4mm or 1/8 inch. Then aggressive cleaning could clog the screen. If it is that thick, you could do a 10min flush with a kerosene type cleaner purchased at the parts store, drain the oil through a house "window screen" to see if there are any large chunks of sludge and/or cut open the oil filter. Then, pour 6-7 quarts of diesel fuel into the crank case and let it sit for 24-48 hrs. Throughout this time, shake the cars front end really hard for a few minutes by pushing against the fender in order to agitate and mix that solution in the crank case which would possibly loosen it from the pump pick up screen then drain the diesel fuel through a screen to see if you see chunks of debris, or if the diesel fuel is black and thick, or clear. Diesel fuel is high in detergents and I've even run a quart in the oil for a quick flush which is an old technique. Many also use a quart of trans fluid to do the same. You may want to see how your oil pressure is before doing this then check it after.

You'd be surprised how these old mechanics used to treat these engines back then.........even in the dealerships!:hammer:

But using a very good synthetic oil with its detergent package will slowly break down the sludge. Have you ever performed an Oil Analysis? Many diesel marine/truck repairs shops even have these oil analyses in their shop. My local Diesel/Marine/Heavy Equipment repair center only charges $15 per sample and tells a lot about what's going on in the engine and the condition of the oil life.


#8. Here's a little on what I found on Valvoline VR1 and NOT to use RACING OIL in a street car since it does not have the detergent packaged needed for a street car. When you read these forums, they often refer to conventional (non-synthetic oil) as "Dino" which means Dinosaur, which means its oil from the ground of the left over extinct Dinosaurs.....something like that!
:histeric:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1712458

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2135252&page=1

More info on Valvoline Products:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2843728&Searchpage=1&Main=188345&Words=Valvoline+vr1&Search=true#Post2843728

Race oils are for short use and drain periods.



#9. Good info here on TH400 Fluid. I'd probably use DextronIII which is good advice from one of the better known members. Some of the members on that Forum are chemists and are really knowledgeable:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2631594&page=1


I'll work on that other info regarding the fuel efficency of the 472/500, Transmissions Info, and Rear Axle Gears recommendations.

Regards,
Chris
 
#31 ·
Well, this thread has gone all over the place. Whenever I contemplate spending large amounts of money in the name of efficiency I like to figure out how long it will take for the mods to pay off. If you spend a lot of time and money you may get 18 mpg out of the car. If it gets10-12 mpg now it will still take a lot of miles before your fuel savings will pay for the mods. The gear vendors unit is a proven reliable unit but it isn't cheap either. 4L80's aren't that cheap to retrofit either. I think most people just pay the penalty at the pump and enjoy it as is. I have lived over 50 years without needing Seafoam so I don't get it's popularity. Synthetic oil will keep any engine clean by itself. I would give any old 472 an HEI with a good tune up and call it good.
 
#32 ·
#8. Here's a little on what I found on Valvoline VR1 and NOT to use it in a street car since it does not have the detergent packaged needed for a street car. When you read these forums, they often refer to conventional (non-synthetic oil) as "Dino" which means Dinosaur, which means its oil from the ground of the left over extinct Dinosaurs.....something like that!
Ok.

Amsoil products are pretty difficult to get in Finland. No one drives every day with these cars nowadays and that's why we don't have very much those products.

It's difficult to find synthetic oil with high ZDDP too. I have searched some information, and Valvoline Turbo which I have used in all engines, has 1300ppm of zinc, but that oil is mineral.

I've heard Red Line uses ester technology in their oils? Does Red Line have any high ZDDP oils?

They would be synthetic and nice, especially in winter.




I'll read the rest of your message later and answer then
 
#34 · (Edited)
Actually, I've been doing major researching on this topic just to post for this thread, and of course, saved about 20 Links of Threads to post back here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, but its true and I really don't want to post that much stuff, but the only way to learn is read, Read, READ! And I'm still learning! :shhh:

Anyway, I came across some info from some intelligent sources regarding your thoughts exactly that others have also concluded, and the experts say, NOT to use diesel oil in a gas motor even though many diesel oils do have high ZDDP levels. Apparently, from what was said, Diesel Oils additive package needs high heat to activate the additive package, and those oils also have different additives and low Ash content ect. which will only benefit diesel motors......and a bunch of other technical reasons that I can't remember!:bonkers:
It was also said, the ZDDP acts differently in diesel oil and does not work until it is exposed to the high heat of a diesel motor.

Also, many have discussed the same Valvoline VR1 oil that "3dfx" is currently using which has been reforumulated with an addivtive package for street cars. Looks like VR1 oil is a good choice. I would maybe go synthetic and add a ZDDP additive like ZDDP Plus or even Redlines ZDDP additive to an acceptable calculated concentration whatever that may be......
http://www.zddplus.com/

ZDDP Plus Tech Paper:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief2%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Cam%20Wear%20-%20Just%20Another%20Engine%20Oil%20Myth.pdf

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121

I'm sure there are many company's in Europe who sell a ZDDP additive also known as "Break In Additive".

Here's Mobil 1's answer on the topic:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Levels_Classic_Cars.aspx


Finally, here's some excellent info on "Everything you want to know about ZDDP" from a GM Tech Bulletin with some very good conclusions that were made about the GM Tech Bulletin!
:hmm:
It was info from 2007, so I wonder if this info has changed any as oil technology has also changed over the past 5yrs. I'll ask for an update to see what they say................
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812

I still feel that this 472 and any neglected motor should have some supplemental cleaning performed. I've been reading some very good info on the KREEN Oil Flush and it looks like that's what I'm ordering soon because of its very different and unique formulation vs. Marvel Mystery Oil, Sea Foam, and Auto RX. I wish I knew about it back in the early 90's when we had some bad bulk oil from a local supplier totally gunk up my Fleet of delivery trucks and my 91 Brougham that I foolishly used that oil in a few times before find out what was happening!
:gah:


I'm going to order some KREEN and give it a try on some of my cars. I sent them an e-mail to see if it's distributed to Europe or if they know of a product over there with the exact formulation. I'll post some interesting and promising stuff I found about it. Their web-site is pretty basic for such an old product line that mainly is known in the Fire Arms and Aerospace Industry.


I'm still gathering tons of stuff to post to the thread in addition to that Camshaft upgrade for the 472 which was developed by some BIG BLOCK CADDY GURU'S and has been proven to improve economy of the 472/500 motor. Bare with me.

Regards,
Chris
 
#35 ·
Problem with most of these chemical oil strippers is just that, they strip the oil of it's lubricating properties. That is why you can only run them for short periods of time. Also they help contaminates to run throught the oiling system. If you have ever torn down an engine, you should be aware of the pockets of fine metal deposits that these cleaners allow to get back into suspension and they are fine enough to pass through most pick-up screens. At this point it relies on how efficient you oil filter is. WIX makes one of the best. Some of the others will allow minute particles through them. There is no known rating of oil filters. They all allow some contaminates through, and all systems have a bypass valve that allows oil passage when trapped particles offer too much resistance.
 
#36 ·
I have read about camshaft thing, and maybe in autumn I dissassemble the engine and change all bearings, pistonrings, etc. and buy a new cam. In autumn I can get my car into warm garage.

I have read about those camshafts, here is one site which provides them: http://www.500cid.com/cams.htm

They say I can get 22MPG fuel consumption, that sounds pretty amazing, huh?:suspect:

Has anyone here replaced your own cam with MTS#3 series mileage cam?

What else I must change? Do I have to change lifters, pushrods, or anything?

They say this cam works best in low-compression engines, how doest it work in my engine, which is high compression? Do I get better results than ones with low compression engine?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top