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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, 472, how to boost fuel economy? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; 3dfx, I sent you a private message.....please let me know if you got it? Regards, Chris...
  1. #106
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    3dfx,

    I sent you a private message.....please let me know if you got it?

    Regards,
    Chris


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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I answered your message.


    Okay, today I got those stuff I ordered couple of weeks ago. Plugs were AC-Delco. I'll have to check the accurate specs of those spark plugs later. The points were not AC-Delco, they were Standard. Is that a good manufacturer? I forgot to buy new distributor cap and rotor. Well, guess I just clean them properly and put them back in. I got some brake parts too, but I didn't get any brake calipers. The seller said that they were out of stock because they all are re-manufactured and there were no old ones to remanufacture. Brake pistons weren't avainable at all. One of my friend has a CNC-lathe at work so he could machine new brakepistons to me from stainless.

    I know couple of guys who have made this kind of things and they got them to work better than the original chrome coated pistons. I should ask them more.


    Maybe next week, I can get my car pressure tested, pass leak tested and emission tested. That should tell a lot about the engine condition.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Today I took my gas tank down and it was in pretty good contidion althought there was strong gas smell. Well, guess I'll have to replace those old fuel hoses and hose clamps with new ones. Old hose clamps looked pretty bad..

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I took pass-leak test and pressure test from my car.

    Pass leak's were something about 30% and all leaked from piston rings.

    All my cylinders has over 10 bar pressures in pressure test.

    I'll post some more spesific results tomorrow.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I should've posted an exact and precise procedure for these tests that I put together. Sorry.........

    Did you do the compression check both with a cold engine, and then a hot engine, throttle plate wide open and fuel pump disconnected and carb. bowls empty, with a fully charged battery along with even a battery charger connected to keep the engine rotating consistently?

    There is a whole methodical sequence on doing this test that many don't do.

    I always even do a video of the cranking pressure of each compression stroke to the maximum pressure of each cylinder. It's just good to do to go back and compare numbers after doing a ring soak to see if compression increases.

    Also after each test, did you put a squirt of heavy duty 40 weight oil in each plug hole and do the compression test again to see if compression increases. If the compression increases, then it's directly related to the rings not sealing but it's still possible that the rings nor the cylinder are not worn.....I always suspect its carboned rings that are stuck and not expanding freely.

    I think all your rings are probably heavily carboned due to the neglect from the former owner who didn't change the oil and the cylinders just need a good chemical hot soak which would not hurt and would soften the carbon to allow the rings to expand to increase compression. Every car can benefit from a ring soak which can be performed without taking the heads off or doing a rebuild.

    10 bars equals 145 psi here in the U.S. Probably a little low for that high compression motor. 10% leakage is about the rule of being normal. Not sure what others have to say is really normal on these Big Block Cadillac Motors. I think I saved a website which gave the specification on a compression test for your motor.

    Not sure if I sent you this one of many articles I've saved on the subject, but they do the leak down test also at BDC:
    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...r/viewall.html

    What this article misses as do many articles on the subject is any engine can benefit with a chemical ring soak to soften any carbon in the ring lands.

    There are also many chemicals that can be used and I can post more in detail.

    Sorry I didn't get that together sooner for you.

    By the way, I got a message from the person who runs the "CADDY 500 Forum" and have been in contact with him about your car putting some info together for you and I was hoping he could find Al Betker. I'm very disappointed that I could never find him after doing a lot of research. He did tell me that someone from Fineland joined their forum a few weeks ago and he thought it may have been you.......did you join over there also?

    Regards,
    Chris

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Here are the specific results of pass-leak test and compression test:

    Pass-leak results:
    Cyl. 1 24%
    Cyl. 2 20%
    Cyl. 3 28%
    Cyl. 4 40%
    Cyl. 5 36%
    Cyl. 6 30%
    Cyl. 7 26%
    Cyl. 8 30%

    Compression test results:
    Cyl. 1 13 Bar
    Cyl. 2 13 Bar
    Cyl. 3 14.5 Bar
    Cyl. 4 11 Bar
    Cyl. 5 12.5 Bar
    Cyl. 6 11.5 Bar
    Cyl. 8 11 Bar

    I couldn't get any results from 7th cylinder because there was some air condition stuff in my way. My engine was cold when I did this test. I didn't have time for test with hot engine. I put some oil into cylinder when I did pass leak test and pass leak somewhere near 10%.

    I should get something to de-carbon my rings. I should ask my local USA-parts dealer does he have any Seafoam etc. What chemicals exacly are in Seafoam?


    I tried to adjust my ignition too, but my distributor was jammed. It doesn't rotate at all. I have heard I should mix atf and acetone 50-50 and put that stuff all over the foot of distributor.

    How much do you inflate your tires? I inflated something near 40 psi. I'm going to test how much does inflating affect mpg. I will drop my inflate to 33 psi when I get some mpg calculations with 40psi inflated tires.

  7. #112
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Here's a site that converts "Bar to PSI" so everyone can interpret your readings:

    http://www.convertunits.com/from/bar/to/psi

    Your basically getting 150psi - 210psi. That's a big difference but I expect the reading should be closer and more accurate on a hot motor.


    Just found this doing a quick search, and is close to my my legnthy procedure that I do when doing a compression test but I also take a video to record each compression stroke especially before I do a decarbon or piston soak so I can see if there is any improved benefits:
    http://www.gregsengine.com/cylinder-...n-testing.html


    Found this on another forum:

    "The minimum compression in any one cylinder should not be less than 70 percent of the highest cylinder. No cylinder should read less than 690 kPa (100 psi). For example, if the highest pressure in any one cylinder is 1035 kPa (150 psi), the lowest allowable pressure for any other cylinder would be 725 kPa (105 psi). (1035 x 70% = 725) (150 x 70% = 105)."

    Normal -- Compression builds up quickly and evenly to the specified compression for each cylinder.

    Piston Rings Leaking -- Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression then builds up with the following strokes but does not reach normal. Compression improves considerably when you add oil.

    Valves Leaking -- Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression usually does not build up on the following strokes. Compression does not improve much when you add oil.

    If two adjacent cylinders have lower than normal compression and injecting oil into the cylinders does not increase the compression, the cause may be a head gasket leaking between the cylinders"



    Sea Foam is well known, but does NOT really work. It only puts on a smoke show of the Pale Oil burning off making tons of smoke which is NOT carbon being broken down. It does NOT have a strong chemistry to break down and dissolve hard carbon.

    I have been researching different chemistry's of different products for the past few years. Sea Foam is Pale Oil, Naptha, and ISA Isoproply Alcohol. Just do an internet search of the CAS# of any MSDS sheet. There are also many other products that have secret ingredients and are hard to figure out whats in them by looking at the MSDS.
    http://www.mta.ca/administration/fac...Co.%202010.pdf

    Sea Foam is NOT what you want. But there is a huge debate that if its good or not and many different forums discuss it including other products used for cleaning carbon.

    I have been trying to find some very good and strong products that are available in Europe for you to use because I knew your engine would need a ring soak, unfortunately, they don't export or sell these products in Europe due to "REACH Compliance Laws for Chemicals". One very strong and unique product that has been sold in the U.S. for 90 yrs is called "Berryman B-12 Chemtool". http://www.berrymanproducts.com/
    I doubt you will be able to find it unless someone is buying it and shipping it over. Northern Tool on e-bay said they would then said they could not ship it to Finland.

    I spoke to the chemist at Berryman and I'll give him a call again. I asked him if Berryman B-12 Chemtool was repackaged for the European market or sold under another name but he said no. He did tell me that a mix of 2 parts Tolulene, and 1 part Acetone or 1 part MEK ( Methyl ethyl ketone) should be easily found at paint stores or hardware / home improvement stores and would be a similar formulation to B-12 to dissolve carbon. Here's their MSDS:
    http://www.berrymanproducts.com/prod...ector-cleaner/

    After the treatment, I would then use a spray lubricant to re-coat the cylinders before turning motor over without the plugs in to get rid of any residual fluid.

    I'll post more on the subject but don't waste your money on Sea Foam.

    There are some chemicals that are made for marine/boat engines to decarbon and also for rings soaks and are generally much stronger chemistry's and don't have a lot of environmental restrictions. Do you have Yamaha, Mercury, Johnson-Evinrude marine/boat dealers in Finland? Possibly the big diesel marine engines have a strong ring/decarbon treatments. That's just a quick idea to think about, but I'll post more.

    At the top of the list is a GM recommended product called "GM Piston and Ring Cleaner" #12378549 , that was used on late model Saturn's and Cadillac North Star Motors that had ring carbon problems. You don't need the special tool or kit. There is a lot of info on many forums that use this product successfully to disolve carboned ring packs due to excessive oil use:
    http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...51/m/735102933

    Personally, I would first start to use heated diesel fuel to do the ring soak which is cheap. My family had a company with a lot of fleet trucks and our old mechanics used to do that. I took it a step further and would pressurize the cylinder with compressed air by using the compression tester and removing the valve so air could come out of the end of the compression tester hose then hook up to shop air to pressurize the cylinder. This would force the diesel fuel into the ring pack then they would refill the cylinder with hot diesel fuel and do this a few times and drain the oil. I used to heat the diesel fuel in an electric coffee pot but would do this on a hot motor and would even let the mixture sit over night. This was an old procedure but there are now chemicals that specialize in dissolving carbon in different ways.

    Stuck and Rusted Distributor Removal:

    Last month, I saved a link to where someone was having trouble getting his distributor out! Lots of discussion. But now I can't find it. I even tried to do internet search to see which forum would've been hi-lited and can't find it. From what I remember, this person eventually had to remove the oil pan, and oil pump, and either used a piece of wood or a long brass drift or I think a piece of concrete metal re-bar (reinforcing bar) and ground a groove in it to interlock with the bottom of the distributor so it would not slip off and damage anything. Then he beat on it with a hammer but did finally get the distributor out.........

    I wish I could find that exact thread but did find a few others that may help.

    Here's a different technique. In the last post, the person heated the engine, then "super-cooled" the distributor housing base. That might work well if you can find the CRC or LocTite Freeze spray, or even computer cleaner CO2 compressed air and hold the can upside down which would spray out the liquid CO2! But, you will need to heat the can in hot water to get a lot of CO2 out before the can freezes up then you need to re-heat the can in hot water.

    What is happening is the iron block is hot, and the aluminum distributor housing is quickly super-cooled with from the liquid spray and the aluminum distributor body shrinks. Hopefully that works for you.

    #1. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...rozen-now.html

    Check out post#9 here and the other link on making a very ingenious tool and drilling 2 holes the distributor and hopefully the distributor could still be used leaving 2 large vent holes in the bottom... There is another link to funny "Military Slang Abbreviations" they use:
    #2. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...tuck-help.html

    The thread above talks about CRC's Industrial Product Line: "Knocker Loose" that I never heard of.....somewhere there's a sexist joke in the choice of what the named the product! :
    #3. http://crcindustries.com/ei/whats-new.aspx

    Looks like they did a comparison to Kroil by Kano Labs which is supposed to be a good product:
    #4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VM7NxPXRDY


    #5. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...threaded=1&p=3

    #6. http://forums.500cid.com/showthread.php?t=1256

    #7. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...utor-69-a.html

    #8. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...tor-stuck.html




    I have heard of the ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil with Acetone but never tried it.....

    A little more debate here on ATF/Acetone but is said to need another carrier oil like kerosene and shows comparision to other penetrating oil brands:
    http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/for...l/29920/page1/


    The Gun industry used it and was called "Ed's Red": http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=9

    There are also products that freeze the bolt with a penetrating oil.
    http://www.loctitefreezeandrelease.com/

    CRC Freeze Off Super Penetrant:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgUwiaRhFc


    Or you may need to just heat the area up with a propane torch.


    Regards,
    Chris

  8. #113
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I did some editing above. Try your mixture of ATF and Acetone and keep soaking it for a week when driving it around. Maybe loosen the distributor hold down clamp. I'd also use a few cans of computer cleaner compressed air spray and spray it with the can up side down to get the liquid CO2. I'd finally use the Computer Spray liquid CO2 with the ATF/Acetone and lightly tap the distributor base with a large "drift rod" and try to use a pipe wrench or oil filter band wrench around the distributor but be careful as you will see many people have broken the distributor's housing in the above links.

    Using the freeze technique and penetrate oil seems most logical.....unless you can find the CRC Freeze Off in Finland, I'd use a whole can on it so as not to risk breaking the distributor. I have a tech. contact at CRC who is a girl who is very knowledgable. I have a feeling that the "Freeze-Off" has the "Knocker Loose" integrated in that product. I'll e-mail her now to see what she says and suggests if you can find that product over there or some substitution.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

    I just saw this product by CRC called "Freeze Spray" that gets down to -60F. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/prod....aspx?id=14086

    Its just 134a Freon A/C Refrigerant, so emptying a whole can of 134a freon on the distributor base after spraying the distributor base with penetrant might break it loose!
    http://www.crcindustries.com/faxdocs/msds/14086.pdf

    Just put a A/C refrigerant hose on it and let it go for one heck of a loud and cloudy show but don't breath the stuff!

    You don't want to break the distributor especially with some of the great "distributor advance tuning info" I'm going to post to help your mileage and fuel efficiency!

    Regards,
    Chris

  9. #114
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    If the distributor is frozen like mine was it is going to die. It will not come out alive. I've been through this twice. Both were in internally clean engines.

    It is not a sludge thing it's a dissimilar metal thing.

    Penetrating oil can't hurt but it isn't going to do anything because the binding occurs far below the block's surface. There's a second round surface on the distributor shaft a few inches down.

    My post was linked and describes the second frozen 500 distributor I removed. The first one was many years ago and it came out in many pieces.

    Warming the engine may be the secret.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hey Ape Man,

    Was there another thread here or maybe on another forum of a guy who used a piece of re-bar (I think) and cut a notch in it, pulled the pan or oil pump to get on the distributor shaft bottom and hammered it out without damage?

    Here's some more "OUT THERE" ideas:

    Mount some sort of "Ultrasonic Transducer Vibrator" to the distributor housing with the right frequency to break up the corrosion...... See E-bay for those devices. "Ultrasonic Transducer Cleaner +1PC Power Driver Board"

    I know there are scientific ways to reverse corrosion and rust through low current electrolysis but the item must be submerged in an electrolyte solution like Na2CO3 (Sodium Carbonate) or Washing Soda. Probably have to drain the oil, and fill the crank case up to the distributor housing with that solution to get it work! NO, DON'T DO IT.
    Just a far reach of the imagination!

    I wonder if it could still be done without an electrolytic solution (electrolyte) and through the block for the negative charge and distributor with a positive low current DC charge.......

    I do know of industrial applications of "Cathodic Protection" using a power supply that changes the amount of charge on a metal surface in order to stop re-bar in concrete structures from corroding, but I'd have to ask around if it would reverse corrosion. Would be cool to reproduce it on a smaller scale.

    Anybody know any Chrome Plating shops or in the electroplating industrial industry who may known if corrosion could be broken down electrically without being submerged in a solution???????? I'll hit those guys up too just for the h'll of it to see what they have to say.There must be a scientific way to do this other than the "caveman way!"

    I'm still thinking about if freezing that "sucker" (entire length of the distributor shaft) with a can of 134a Freon, or maybe liquid nitrogen, or even packing the distributor base with powdered dry ice -109F would work! 134a should do it by dropping the distributor body to at least -50F which should shrink that aluminum 1 or 2 "sub-microns" to break the corrosion bond! Who knows, may take until next summer to thaw out!


    I don't know............!

    I'd like to see him get that stupid "dip-sht-it-er" out in one piece so he can do the distributor tuning techique's I found for his mileage gains.

    And yes.....I'm thinking on deleting all of my long posts and re-post them in separate threads with links back here to clean up my mess so this thread can be put back on track of the original subject !

    I got a bunch of interesting stuff to throw out here..........

  11. #116
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I think the guy who removed the oil pump may have done that after destroying the distributor up top first. Not sure.

    Electrolytic processes take time. Most folks with a broken distributor, a pile of parts and a car that does not run would not want to consider it. Many of these distributors need to come out due to a bad HEI pickup coil lead. A very interesting suggestion nontheless.

    Next one if there ever is a next one I'll overheat the engine just a little and find a better way to cool the distributor.

  12. #117
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I'm thinking all of the above. Penetrant, super-cool the distributor, while heating the motor first or the opposite, but super-cooling the distributor should shock it and break the corrosion bond. Maybe do it with the engine running but with the hold down loosened slightly because I have visions of the distributor shooting out through the hood like a rocket and taking someone's eye out or head off!!!!!!!!!!!
    Who knows....but stuff like this happens to me all the time....!

    Even also using a large pipe wrench on the distributor housing like I read before, and use some regulated (not at full power) air hammer on the pipe wrench end for torsional/twisting vibrations or to send vibrations into the distributor shaft body with a flat chisel attachment on the lower base by the hold down to send lateral harmonic vibrations down the distributor shaft with a little tension back on forth on the on pipe wrench...may need 2 pipe wrenches for each direction of twisting back and forth.

    Definitely will need a few people for each task! Guy spraying Freon, someone revving the motor, another twisting the pipe wrench back and forth, and another with the air hammer, and the 5th guy sitting there laughing at the orchestra symphony of this sheer circus act of idiocy!

    But it might just work! I hope he takes a video of this and posts it if it works or not! At least we will all know if it's a solution.

    And if something breaks, there's going to be a lot of blame and finger pointing!

    Once again:

    I wonder if the CRC Knocker Loose could wick down the entire length of the shaft. Many people like Aero Kroil but I'm surprised with this demo from CRC actually comparing their product with Aero Kroil.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VM7NxPXRDY


    CRC Freeze Off looks like it does wick up in this demo, so I wonder if over time, it could wick the entire length of the shaft to get to the corrosion on the lower ring like at :58-1:08 in the video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BaowQvL6c

    Hopefully the acetone mix will break down the paper distributor base gasket so the other penetrant oils can wick down the shaft. Permatex used to make a potent gasket remover that dissolved paper gaskets, but any spray paint stripper with methylene chloride ect... will dissolve gaskets. Maybe that would work to get the paper gasket out of th way.

    Where on the distributor is the corrosion happening? Is it on the 2nd ring below the hold down collar like you mentioned?
    Not sure if the photo will be inserted so here is a link of a 472 Cadillac GM Distributor:
    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...800&cc=1025367

    GM Distributor.jpg

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Just got an e-mail from CRC. They only make the product for the U.S. but gave me the address of CRC Marketing for Europe so I sent an e-mail to see if the products can be purchased there or some similar product.

  14. #119
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I like the tips in the last few posts. Overheat the engine as much as possible, spray some super penetrating oil, pipe wrench with impact to send some vibrations through it, freeze the shaft, more pipe wrench, more vibration. It still may not work, but that sounds like the best plan of attack that our great minds can come up with. I never had success yet in removing a frozen distributor without ruining it. Good luck.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    We have some CRC sprays in Finland, and we have some freezing sprays too. I think I have some freezing spray in my garage. I think my freezing sprays are made by Certified Laboratories. Those had pretty big nozzle, so I can get lots of spray coming out from the bottle fast.

    Guess I'll have to find a spare distributor before I start taking my distributor out. I have small liquid gas burner, would it be OK if I take my AC compressor out of the way and then start to heat the distributor base and engine block with this small burner, and then use freezing spray to freeze it?

    I'll have to borrow or buy an air hammer somewhere.




    Now my car runs pretty well only if I don't use secondary throttles. When I open my secondary throttles, huge pinging/knocking is coming out from my engine. With primaries open, my car doesn't ping at all.

    I start looking for spare distributor in monday. I have some contacts who might know where to get a distributor. I think I'm not converting to HEI yet because point distributor are way too cheaper.

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