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  1. #76
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dfx View Post
    Hi, CadChris

    Have you been in touch with Al Betker yet?


    I've come to think of last summer, and my driving, I remember now one, carburator problem I had. When I shut my warm engine off, and started it again after short perioid of time, the starter roteted the engine but it "jammed" about ½second after I have started starting. Then, ½-1 second silence and after that, the engine started immeatedly.

    Try to find out what I tried to mean. I'm not good at explaining these things in english.

    My friend (who had chevy in the eighties) said leaking needle valve or leaking plugs on the bottom of the carb could cause this. He wasn't sure about that because it has been long time since he has done anything to that carburetor.

    Vapor lock. You pointed out the major cause with Cadillacs using Rottenchester carbonators. Leaking fuel well plugs.

  2. #77
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    3dfx.........I'll definitely know tomorrow about Al, if not, I tracked down some of his family so I'll start calling them to find out where he is.

    I just hope he's not driving those "Big Cadillac's in the Sky"

    Or he's "Down South".....!

    Does this translate correctly in Finnish? If not, Let's all hope he's not dead!


    Any way, when I read your post about the engine locking or stopping for a brief second it makes me think you could have a burned spot on the starter's armature, or a high resistance circuit.......which is very common when any engine has this sort of problem when warm and turned off then restarted. If it doesn't do it all the time, most likely the starters brushes are stopping on a bad spot on the armature and it will keep doing this until the car won't start. The fix is to then beat on the starter and if it starts then when attempting to start the motor, then you know.

    Here's a more precise explanation:

    Starter motor problems usually are indicated by the following symptom: Turn the key to the START position and you hear a loud click, or sometimes you hear nothing. The headlights are bright and don't dim when you turn the key to START, and everything else electrical seems to work fine. It could be a bad starter neutral switch or a bad key switch but about 99% of the time it's a bad starter or starter solenoid. Here is the procedure for checking out a starter motor and its solenoid.

    Problems in a starter motor normally involve a "bad spot" on the commutator, the electrical section of the armature that contacts the brushes. They get dirty and worn down. The brushes sometimes wear out but not normally. Open circuits can occur in the armature or in stator windings. You could fix these problems but the normal procedure is to replace the starter with a rebuilt. If the starter motor armature just happens to stop on a "bad spot" the circuit is open and the starter won't turn. Sometimes you can "rock" the engine by hand (be careful - make sure the ignition switch is off) or in a standard transmission car you can put it in gear and "rock" the car by pushing it forward or backward a few inches - this can move the starter motor off the "bad spot" and get you on your way, but it's a crap shoot as to when it will happen again. Sometimes rapping the starter with a hammer can make temporary contact where the contact was flaky, but you can do more harm to the starter than good if ya hit it too hard!!


    Unless this is indeed a Q-Jet problem, but I'm not one to know very much on Carbs........Fuel Injection yes.......carbs very little.

    This could also be the starter solenoid going bad, or a bad high resistance internally corroded positive or negative battery cable wire or a bad ground, like an engine ground or the transmission housing ground, or even the starter case does not have a good ground......maybe even an ignition/starter switch problem......even a shorted cell in the battery will do this when the battery is hot, but will still start the car.

    Hot components create high electrical resistance which leads me to believe it could be electrical but like the previous poster said, it could be fuel related.

    All of these circuits will need checked by doing Voltage drops and resistance checks but it's better to start using high quality 1600 strand OFC (oxygen free cable) 4 gauge power/ground wires commonly used in high-end stereo systems and to also always use high quality soldered type zinc coated copper battery connectors and ring terminals. That big motor needs a lot of power to start the engine, and will need more as static compression rises with the future Cam/Ignition modifications.

    Only solder connectors.......no crimping especially battery cables.....here's how:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDkNMDDrBs

    http://www.nationalstandardparts.com...terminals.html


    High strand cable can be found at a Boat/Marine Store, stereo shops or suppliers on the internet....high strand cable is very flexible....the more strands, more electrons and current getting to the device, but that is common knowledge for the big stereo amps and systems......always use the same gauge wire for the ground as used for power and run additional grounds to the block, body, transmission, and each head of the motor........you can never have enough grounds on a car.
    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=100-194

    There is even a concern when going to an HEI distributor on a high compression motor with a lot of "needed" ignition advanced dialed in, and I need to get better info on when talking to one of the distributor guys or experts on the HEI Modules. There are 4 Pin GM Modules of different types that I need to get a full understanding of the differences, but many guys just use any 4 Pin Module, then there is are some "GM 5 Pin Modules" which has a unique feature that was utilized as an ignition retard when used in the early pre-computer GM Carburated cars with a spark ignition retard module or it may be a primitive ECM used just to retard ignition timing with a knock sensor.

    From what I've read I became very curious about the 5 Pin, and started researching regarding the whole HEI topic. The "5 Pin version" of the GM Distributor Ignition Control Module (ICM) was a very early attempt to control knock or pre-ignition on a carburated engine. I read that some people find these controllers in the junkyard, and use the GM 5 Pin Modules for a remedial knock control set-up but there are concerns of harmonic knock frequencies that differ from engine to engine, but some other people use the 5 Pin Ignition Module to retard spark up to 10 degrees only when starting a high compression motor since the starter will have a hard time turning over (starter knock back) with a well advanced HEI both mechanical and vacuum. These people will just hook up the "R" terminal of the module to the "Start Side" of the ignition switch or starter circuit to only briefly retard spark when starting so the engine turns over easily.

    I hate to drop everyone into the middle of my HEI research, but lots of good info and links here.....enjoy the benefits of having a GM High Energy Ignition (HEI) Performance...this is only 1 trick of many upgrades and modifications that can be done to improve an HEI Distributor:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ower-fuel.html

    COPY AND PASTE THIS LINK AND CLOSE THE SPACES......THIS FORUM WILL NOT ALLOW ME TO POST THESE LINKS:

    www . cadillac power . com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=142595

    www . cadillac power . com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=142595



    I've read about other reason's why GM made that special design which was debated, and it was used to also to retard timing on some GM's around the 70's 80's???? due to inductive starter wire EMF that could advance timing when starting the engine....kind of confusing and complex, but that was just 1 modification I read about doing to an HEI. There's so much out there on the HEI that I've read through over the past month, that I have probably saved over 100 good links and I've probably read 100 bad sites also!

    You very well could just use the 4 Pin HEI (ICM) module, and even with a well tuned ignition advance your starter may not have a problem, but since you have a higher compression motor, and will go with the MTS#3 some day, that will add to static compression when starting the engine, and your starter may kick back from all that compression and the trick would be to then use the 5 Pin HEI Module which is no big problem and should be available at any auto parts store around the world or a better Delco one ordered on the internet.

    Maybe some others can add to this discussion on the 5 Pin Modules with the ignition "Retard (R)" terminal.

    Just another question to ask Al Betker if I can get to speak to him.

    I'll give you an update tomorrow.

    Regards,
    Chris

  3. #78
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Something I saved about HEI's written from the famous Automotive Performance Author "JIM HAND" who is a Pontiac Builder.

    He states: "Some experimentation with the size of the secondary metering rods on the Q-Jets can significantly improve performance. We do not recommend the metering kits that several Pontiac parts vendors are selling. It is unlikely they will be correct for your application and they are very expensive. All parts are available at a GM dealer. The primary metering system will usually work very well with stock components. On most carbs (especially the Q-Jet), the float can be set about 2/32" lower which will improve economy and hot soak starting problems.

    This is a recovered dead website using WAYBACK MACHINE that can recover old dead webpages:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200412310...articles3.html

  4. #79
    CADforce69 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dfx View Post
    I've come to think of last summer, and my driving, I remember now one, carburator problem I had. When I shut my warm engine off, and started it again after short perioid of time, the starter roteted the engine but it "jammed" about ½second after I have started starting. Then, ½-1 second silence and after that, the engine started immeatedly.

    Try to find out what I tried to mean. I'm not good at explaining these things in english.

    My friend (who had chevy in the eighties) said leaking needle valve or leaking plugs on the bottom of the carb could cause this. He wasn't sure about that because it has been long time since he has done anything to that carburetor.
    This is what happens to my '69 when engine is hot and you stop it and start it short after (engine temp. 84ºCelsius -183ºF- or more). I´ve been told that this happens when ignition is too advanced, so I´m trying to reduce advance carefully as if I reduce advance too much the engine does not run well when cold. Not easy as I have no strobe gun. I think I´m close to get it by trial and error.

  5. #80
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Which again reflects on a weak starter or bad battery cables, connections, grounds.......maybe even in the distributor.....not sure if burned points could do it, or a coil going bad when hot, or not enough power to the coil through the ballast resistor.

    I think it should have around 9 volts to the coil which is why when installing an HEI, it gets a full 12 Volts with out a ballast resistor, and uses a more powerful ignition coil which is why spark plug gaps are set at .060 from the factory on many factory HEI's. Points and ballast resistor 9 volt coil is around 18,000 volts max, where HEI coil can deliver over 40,000 volts but that voltage is never used on a street car.

    If you have to retard ignition timing, then you are also reducing static cylinder pressure because something electrical is reducing power and affects the cranking of the motor normally.......hopefully your carburator is not dumping tons of fuel and your raising static pressure that way by filling the cylinder with fuel!

    Does your oil have a lot of fuel in it?

  6. #81
    CADforce69 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    If you have to retard ignition timing, then you are also reducing static cylinder pressure because something electrical is reducing power and affects the cranking of the motor normally.......hopefully your carburator is not dumping tons of fuel and your raising static pressure that way by filling the cylinder with fuel!

    Does your oil have a lot of fuel in it?
    No, oil has a normal look. Carb has known far better days but it does not seem to be overfeeding the intake. There would be a strong gas smell and abnormal fuel consumption.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    Which again reflects on a weak starter or bad battery cables, connections, grounds.......maybe even in the distributor.....not sure if burned points could do it, or a coil going bad when hot, or not enough power to the coil through the ballast resistor.

    I think it should have around 9 volts to the coil which is why when installing an HEI, it gets a full 12 Volts with out a ballast resistor, and uses a more powerful ignition coil which is why spark plug gaps are set at .060 from the factory on many factory HEI's. Points and ballast resistor 9 volt coil is around 18,000 volts max, where HEI coil can deliver over 40,000 volts but that voltage is never used on a street car.
    But ballast resistor is supposed to be by-passed until engine is running and alternator is producing electricity. When engine is running (current through ballast resistor) there is no problem

  7. #82
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    Lightbulb Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Forgot about how that ballast works......... I'll admit, no experience with points style distributor, only HEI, and Fuel Injection. I still think it's electrical/starter motor related if you think your condition is similar to what I posted above.

    I planned on asking your question to this expert Cadillac guy named Al Betker, but I can't get in touch with him.

    ----------

    3dfx,

    Al Betker is a very hard guy to find these days!

    His e-mails no longer work, and now all of Al Betker's phone numbers no longer work, I also tried some phone number's I found for his family, and 1 number worked, so I left a message and no answer on the other number. I hope that was his family I called, but I left a detailed message. I also left a message for one of his old well known customers who Al did a lot of work for, so hopefully he can put me in contact with him.

    I just found some more phone numbers to try tomorrow........... If that does not work, then I have 2 definite home addresses for him, and I'll write a letter and send it by mail !

    I'm sure that will work!

    I've also done many different searches for Al on other forums, and it looks like his last posts were all around 2008. Also did searches for the "1976 22mpg Cadillac Sedan Deville 500" and only MTS sites come up and a few other forums talking about it but no detailed info.




    Regards,
    Chris

    ----------

    I remember reading a while ago about Q-Jet leaking problems and using JB Weld epoxy as a fix.

    Maybe this will work for certain "Hot Restart Problems with the Q-Jet"

    http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...r/viewall.html

    More links on sealing Q-Jet's plugs, with epoxy:

    http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204400

    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/leak...et-138013.html

    http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh...3/post/803916/

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=202866

    http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=116800

    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/quad...er-143359.html

    http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/parts.html
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  8. #83
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Does your oil have a lot of fuel in it?
    My oil doesn't have much fuel in it. Of course, my engine burns pretty much oil. So, 1/5 of the oil are fresh in every 1000 kilometers.

    MY engine has pretty strong gas smell when I open the hood and the car has ran recently. Also my car accelerator pump leaks from somewhere and sprays some gas over the secondaries. When I rebuild my engine, I'll have to rebuilt carburator too.

    I've also done many different searches for Al on other forums, and it looks like his last posts were all around 2008. Also did searches for the "1976 22mpg Cadillac Sedan Deville 500" and only MTS sites come up and a few other forums talking about it but no detailed info.
    I have tried to search that too. I have tried to search for "MTS #3 cam experiences", but this far, I only got one experience from some forum with that cam. Most of the results are some thing like "What cam I should buy for my Cadillac 500 engine. I need lots of low rpm torque" and people are answering what cam could fit his needs the best. No one is talking about how was the car after the cam swap. When I have done the cam swap, I will definitely post some experiences



    Today I bought new distriburor cap, rotor, points, and spark plugs. Points were 24€

    I bought some brake parts too. I had to buy whole new brake caliper because brake pistons weren't avainable here


    Hey, one question about crankshaft wear. Does crankshaft wear much in these engines? I'm just thinking if I'm lucky, I don't have to get my crankshaft honed. I'm not sure if I have only heard rumours but honing is pretty expensive in here.

  9. #84
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Wow.....I hope they were AC Delco points/condensor which would be a great price, but they probably sold you the $2.00 points which would be the 24 Euros or $30.

    What was wrong with the points? Was the spring worn, or were they burned? Could you not have sanded the points smooth with very fine sand paper?
    Many articles on restoring points:
    http://www.glenngoodspeed.com/volvo/POINTS.HTM

    Just until you get yourself an HEI to drop in unless their were other problems with the points.

    Points are too archaic and draconian for me!

    I also work on Residential and Commercial Air Conditioning Heating Systems, and distributor points remind me of the contactor controller and those contacts are made from Silver Cadmium-Oxide. Most of the time, the contacts just get burned from 220 volts arching and it burns the silver out of the contacts and leaves behind a burned carbon crust. We just disassemble the controller and sand the contacts to a nice shiny surface with very fine sand paper to get the AC up and running quickly during the South Florida summer heat.
    http://www.central-air-conditioner-a...condenser.html

    I'm sure many people do the same with ignition points contacts that are made from tungsten to get a new clean contact surface.

    Have you ever heard of RockAuto.com? It is a well known internet parts company here in the U.S. You can see how the price varies from better quality to lower quality points. Hopefully you got the better quality points for that price.
    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...parttype,11337

    I wonder if ROCKAUTO ships to Europe......were there any listings on Amazon Europe or E-bay Europe for those parts?
    How are you buying your parts over there for these Cadillacs?

    I'm going to try a few more phone numbers again for Al Betker........

  10. #85
    CADforce69 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    Have you ever heard of RockAuto.com? It is a well known internet parts company here in the U.S. You can see how the price varies from better quality to lower quality points. Hopefully you got the better quality points for that price.
    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...parttype,11337

    I wonder if ROCKAUTO ships to Europe......were there any listings on Amazon Europe or E-bay Europe for those parts?
    How are you buying your parts over there for these Cadillacs?
    I buy most common parts for my caddy (and my Dodge) from Rockauto. Yeah, they ship to Europe and provide a good service. I think the best points are AC Delco but those which come without integrated condenser. It´s better buying the condenser separately. These contact-condenser sets are causing some problems with the condenser. Originally the 69 cadillac used the points as one individual part and the condenser with its own wire attached to the distributor plug.

    As refers to points I use to choose quality, as it´s a critical part that could leave you stranded. It´s good having always a spare in the car.

  11. #86
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Well, I just tried another number for Al at his other home, and that number no longer works, I tried the same relative again, and that number just rings.......or nobody home!

    I finally got in touch with Matt Garret who had Al build his motor for this beautiful Fleetwood http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM that was sold to Bob Lutz of GM, but he hasn't heard from Al in years and will try to ask around and find some old contact info to him.

    I'm going to send 1 more e-mail to a possible family member, and also try Comp Cams and Erson Cams who made those MTS Cams for Al and hopefully they know about the "Legend of the 22 mpg MTS #3 Cam" or maybe someone there knows how to get in touch with Al Betker!

    If that doesn't work, I'm going to send 2 letters by regular mail to his homes in hopes he will call me....and maybe I can get him to join here.

    I also left a message for one of the old guys with Erson Cams just now, so I'll wait to see what he says. I'll try Comp Cams tomorrow.


    I've done this type of stuff before and won't give up until I find o'l Al !

    ----------

    Just got off the phone with Eric Bolander at Erson Cams, and they only make the VT series for MTS which he said is just a standard "HOTROD" cam. He reviewed the info on the MTS#3 and said he can't make any conclusions on the 3 different sets of specs/numbers of this cams profile so it seems like it has been kept very vague and a secrecy surrounding this cams grind..........


    I'm surprised no one ever put it on a CAM DOCTOR or other machine to measure it and post the info......

    Well........Comp Cams tomorrow.

  12. #87
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    It sounds like we aren't talking fuel economy any more.... If an old v8 turns over hard when hot, and you think the timing is too far advanced, a quick and easy work around is to give the accelerator a couple pumps before turning the key. That usually makes them kick right over. If it has no effect then you can start diagnosing the starting circuit or possible bad starter.
    CADforce69 and CADforce69 like this.

  13. #88
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?


  14. #89
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I thought I'd post this just as a joke.

    I wonder if that 76' 22mpg Deville used these old radioactive spark plugs:

    http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/c...sparkplugs.htm


  15. #90
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Cool!

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