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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, 472, how to boost fuel economy? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; My 425 is still smooth as silk at 124k miles, it does, however, use about a quart of oil each ...
  1. #46
    Bro-Ham's Avatar
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    Smile

    My 425 is still smooth as silk at 124k miles, it does, however, use about a quart of oil each thousand miles. Since I intend to keep the car, I have kept in the back of my mind a rebuild of the engine, carb and transmission too, and the MTS #3 mileage cam will go in so I can maybe go 3 days between fill ups instead of 2.

  2. #47
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Since were talking about cams, here's some basic info about cam specs:

    Popular HotRodding Article:http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...s/viewall.html

    Monte Carlo Forum on LSA ect:
    http://www.firstgenmc.com/ubbthreads...t&Number=62451

    LS1 Forum on Cam Advancing Specs:
    http://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-e...planation.html


    The specs that MTS e-mailed me are still only basic specs and not the complete cam profile. Probably so people can't duplicate the cam by another mfg. without having the profile measured on a "Cam Doctor" machine.
    http://powermechanics.com/camdoctor.html

    A little on Camshaft integrity here by NC Cams, when measuring on a "cam doctor machine" that a camshaft supplier uses...funny thread but informative on measuring cam defects also!
    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/home...or-149679.html

    When you get a new cam, it must be degreed just in case the keyway is off and it needs to be corrected by drilling the cam sprocket alignment hole and installing a offset shim or an adjustable cam sprocket! .

    Anyway, I went looking on YOUTUBE for their old "Cam Degreeing" video, which I have in their old kit they sold in the early 90's with a classroom tutorial and teacher using a classroom chalkboard. I asked Comp Cams to upload it but here is their newer less informative video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNoVRLb73c

    Here's the kit they sell through Summit Racing:
    http://www.powerhouseproducts.com/ph...aft-tools.html

    A few years ago, a company called CamLogic developed a digital cam degreeing kit and it was bought out by Comp Cams-Powerhouse Tools, and may not be available any longer:
    http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...degreeing.aspx

    http://powermechanics.com/camdoctor.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bWoULkiRDU


    Here's a good 5 part video on Camshaft Design:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnfdYc2GAz0


    From what I read on the old archived MTS site that I will post along with many other links: "MT Series Cams are custom ground for MTS by Comp Cams" and the "VT Series are custom ground for MTS by Erson Cams"

    The new owners of MTS could have their cams ground by other grinders in the industry.

    Hopefully, Comp Cams will upload their original cam degreeing video.

  3. #48
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Did you read this link to the forum "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?" that I posted previously?
    Yeah, I have read John Baker's post about horrible cam design.

    What Plasma system did they review in that magazine article?
    I'm not sure but I think it was the Okada project ignition system.

    I have to look for that magazine, maybe I can find one from library. I think they store some old magazines in there.

    Not sure if he also sent you this info too.
    I haven't got an answer from there yet, I'll have to send a new message to them, maybe my message went to their spam folder.

    Not a big deal, but just picking the best rear gears to match that cam is important to get your fuel economy...
    I'm not sure did I ask this before but If im lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torqueconverter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems.

  4. #49
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Arron9000 in post #18 said most likely you have 2.94:1 gears. Since you were not the original owner, have you ever verified what gears you have?

    Here's one way to check...see post#9:
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=11303

    I'll get you a definite answer from that tech at the company who builds custom converters.

    Just found another site for the 1969 Cadillac Specs:
    http://automotivemileposts.com/cadil...d1969cadi.html

    By the way, in Finland, you are paying $8.60 U.S. for a gallon of gas!!!!!!!!!!!

    Basically, 1.6 Euros per liter. That's $2.15 US per liter or a quart! There are about 4 liters or quarts to a gallon.
    http://www.mytravelcost.com/Finland/gas-prices/


    So what's the more severe punishment, stealing petrol or stealing a draft horse to tow your Caddy around?!

    I think you may want to consider the "Electric Car Conversion Forum"! I don't know how you guys can afford to drive those cars over-there........................

  5. #50
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Arron9000 in post #18 said most likely you have 2.94:1 gears. Since you were not the original owner, have you ever verified what gears you have?
    No I haven't. I think I have original gears because this car is pretty much in original condition. I'll check them tomorrow if the weather is good and reply about my gears.

    By the way, in Finland, you are paying $8.60 U.S. for a gallon of gas!!!!!!!!!!!

    Basically, 1.6 Euros per liter. That's $2.15 US per liter or a quart! There are about 4 liters or quarts to a gallon.
    http://www.mytravelcost.com/Finland/gas-prices/
    Gas has been always expensive in Finland. Gas is taxed much and the government will tax it more and more... Currently there is The Green party (some kind of environmental extremist..) sitting in government among other parties and those Greens would like to stop private cars (heavily taxed new cars (nowadays if I buy a car worth 50 000Euros, taxes are something like 15000 to 25000 Euros so the final price is like 70 000 euros...) and heavily taxed gas..) from Finland and indirectly force everyone to use public conveyance...That's good in cities but in countryside it's bad...Luckily those Greens aren't very strong party..

    Now the gas prices have come down a little. In spring gas prices were something like 1.7 and 1.8 Euros per liter..Now prices are something like 1.55 and 1.6 Euros per liter.


    I think you may want to consider the "Electric Car Conversion Forum"!
    Electric cars are bad because they don't work in low temperatures. I would need to steal that that draft horse anyway

    Well, maybe pressurized natural gas conversion is an option in future. The conversion itself isn't very expensive but the availability of natural gas is bad. Hope there will be more gas stations in future. Of course problems with natural gas prices begin when there is more natural-gas powered cars in the streets and when the government starts to tax heavily natural gas...

    I don't know how you guys can afford to drive those cars over-there........................
    That's why I'm here to talk about getting more economical cadillac


    I think there was more politics than Cadillacs in this message
    talismandave and talismandave like this.

  6. #51
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    There are also LPG (Liquid Propane Gas) conversions that many fleet trucks convert to which is cheaper than gasoline here and burns cleaner. There are inexpensive kits available also for personal cars/trucks...infact, many internet forums devoted to it. I've been reading about an additive for LPG that increases BTU's of the combustion.Not sure if Finland has LPG filling stations.

    You need to get the "h-ll" out of Finland with your Caddy and not look back! We are all very lucky to be able to buy gas at what seems to be much more reasonable prices here in the U.S. versus other countries.

    Here's something that should make all of us pretty mad...........CITCO in Venezuela is around .18 cents a gallon U.S!

    Here are the 10 Ten Cheapest gas prices in the world.....you'll need to move there or drive there to fill up the Deville!!!!!!!!!!!!:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2012/...0.05-per-liter

    Last time the U.S. saw .18 cents per gallon was 1931-1941:
    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...t_fotw364.html

    Of course, there is always the alternative type of gas to run the Caddy on: Lets see our governments tax that!
    talismandave and talismandave like this.

  7. #52
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Can we try to get the discussion back to RWD Cadillacs, please?

  8. #53
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    After reading the choices on the list.....I would move to Finland and pay the price first!
    CADforce69 and CADforce69 like this.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    .Not sure if Finland has LPG filling stations.
    We don't have those for, but I think LPG is pretty easy to get and store in some big gas tank. Of course, there can be some law which denies that or something...

    You need to get the "h-ll" out of Finland with your Caddy and not look back! We are all very lucky to be able to buy gas at what seems to be much more reasonable prices here in the U.S. versus other countries.
    Well, this country has some flaws (maybe biggest flaw is traffic, the condition of roads and all those EU things which are ruining everything...) but there are pretty much things which are perfect in this country.



    And back to Cadillacs, I checked my back gears and they were a bit under 3. When I rotated my wheel two times round, the driveshaft rotated a bit less than 3 times. So, I think I have those 2.94:1 gears. The mark in driveshaft started to "retard" when I rotated my wheel 4 or 6 times.

    Could it be possible that my stock torque converter could work with longer back gears?


    Few days ago, I heard one rumour from american car mechanic. If I mix classic Dexron II atf and some wet brake oil 50%/50%, I could get an oil mix which doesn't slit as much as todays Dexron II. Has anyone else heard this kind of information?

  10. #55
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Tervetuloa

  11. #56
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Kiitos




    Cadchris, have you asked about torque converters from YANK yet?

    I have 2.94 gears now.

  12. #57
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Sorry I didn't get back to you 3dfx, I've been working on a "huge deal" to purchase prototype performance parts that were developed for the early Cadillac Motorsports Program for the 4.5/4.9 Cadillac's 88-96. I made the deal to save these parts and race motors from being throw out and made into scrap metal !


    I've been wanting to send a different e-mail for another opinion on this converter; just get second opinion. I just sent the e-mail and hopefully will hear back today or tomorrow. I was hoping that others would post, but I'll get that huge researched posted up I did way back on this topic and have even more to add.......

    Stay tuned!


    Regards,
    Chris

  13. #58
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    O.K. I'm going to try the best I can writing this one up as I'm no expert on Transmissions or Torque Converters! But I can give you my best feeling and educated guess on what to do based on my conversations with some of the experts of "High End" built converters unlike the regular known "Performance Brands" like TCI, B&M ect. ect........

    The converters I'm going to talk about are really high end quality, all new billet designs, with a little secretiveness between each company's technology!

    I spoke to both Terry Hedrick at Precision Industries Converters http://www.converter.com/ who built my converter based on my intensive research a few years ago for my 700R4 but haven't had my trans rebuilt yet. I also spoke to Mike Senia at YANK Converters http://www.converter.cc/ who gave me more favorable info on how he would build a Non-Lockup Converter for the TH400.

    There are only a few company's out there who build high end converters and the average price is around $900. Many forums I've researched all say not to buy a cheep so called "Performance Converter" because you really get what you pay for and is a necessity for both efficient function and performance of the transmission.

    These are full billet designs that are precision balanced, furnace brazed double-backed fin to avoid "fold over" from high engine torque, and the welds don't have globs of brass solder on the vanes which interrupts fluid dynamics and flow like seen on Precision page that all 3 companies do:
    http://converter.com/why.htm

    Just a few of these well known "Billet Converter Companies" are Precision "Vigilante", YANK, and Art Carr.

    Here's some background on both Precision and YANK:

    Terry Hedrick of Precision worked for Art Carr many years ago from what I read on other forums, and started his own company building high performance converters with improved designs from Art Carr and he is well respected in the industry. I've also heard, his company is small, but does build proprietary private label parts for other converter companies with his trusted technology and he is mostly known to build special converters for Diesel Trucks and is known to have proprietary clutch frictions .

    YANK converters was started by Mike Senia and I know for a fact that Mike has close ties with GM Engineering and GM even turns to his company and him for consulting work on converters. Mike and his father have had a long history with GM as they were involved in factory custom coach building with GM back in the 60's thru 80's and being sponsored by GM's Motorsport race program for NHRA. Mike has factory GM transmission/converter testing dyno's along with a lot unlimited access to GM's Engineers ect. which I suppose helped him develop his technology in high performance converter designs. Mike is also head of product development/consultant for Cloyes Timing Chains/Gears! Mike also said to go with the Cloyes Race Billet Kit which will give you the ability to advance the MTS#3 cam 2 degrees on the crank sprocket which is better for low end torque. I say to also always degree the cam in with a degree wheel kit so you know exactly how the cam is installed.

    Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!

    I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.

    I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
    http://www.evanscooling.com/

    Basically, for better fuel efficiency and power, you want to advance timing, and valve timing to move the torque curve low in the RPM range, lean out the carb. and the Evans Coolant will allow you to do it without detonation. All racers and turbo guys use this stuff to avoid detonation. Hopefully I can get in touch with Al Betker as he's the authority to know what to do with the Big Block Cadillac Motors.


    I don't know much about Art Carr Converters and Transmissions, http://www.cpttransmission.com/index.htm but the name is very well known in the early years of performance converter manufacturing and is also mentioned in the racing scene and forums along with Precision and YANK Converters being the better technology and design.

    I asked a series of questions to Terry and told him I was going to post his answers on the forum. He gives some straight forward advice and opinions, but I was hoping for something more but he did try to answer each question, but did not give a price quote when I asked him in question #1.

    ************************************************** ********************************
    Here's my questions/answers to Terry Hedrick at Precision Converters after giving him the MTS#3 Cam Specs, Trans, Gear ratio, car info ect. :

    #1. Can you build a custom converter for this car and send it to Finland Europe ....any est. on price for domestic sales also?...................HE DID NOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

    This "Forum Member" is located in Finland and there is a huge vintage Cadillac ownership there in Europe paying $9 a gallon to drive these cars so any converter improvement in fuel efficiency through a converter design will hopefully help.

    From what I've been researching on many other forums, many people have said to stay with the TH400, but he wants fuel economy and its been debated if a 200R4 will hold, even if its built up. The 4L80 is probably the way to go for the high hp/tq of the 472 and fuel efficiency, but is an expensive conversion. Many have said not to use the 700R4 even if its built-up which apparently costs a lot to beef it up.

    He wants the best fuel economy as possible and does not know what the best gears would be to match up to the cam, tq. conv., and trans. for best fuel economy. He currently has 2.94 rear gears.

    #2. What is your advice for his set up?
    To get the best fuel economy I would suggest using a transmission with a lock up torque converter and overdrive such as a 2004R.

    I've read that there "IS and IS NOT" a lockup converter for the TH400 and I think I read that YANK did make a lock-up in the past along with some other mfgs.

    #3. Does the trans need heavily modded for a lockup conversion?
    We used to make a lock up 400 transmission kit and converter but do not any more because no one would spend the money.

    I've read about the "Switch Pitch" TH400 also but don't really understand how it works and how to operate it. The transmission has the capability to alter the blade angle of the stator allowing for more or less torque multiplication.

    Here is one of the concerns posted from that Cadillac Forum Member in Finland :

    "If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"

    #4. Can you answer this question for him?
    The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.


    #5. Can there be a similar problem if he went with a Gear Vendors on the TH400 and non-lockup?
    The slip on take-off will be less.

    BEST TO ALWAYS USE A TRANS. COOLER.


    #6. Do you know how to get in touch with Al Betker who was the old owner of MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties) who developed that camshaft line years ago?
    No

    I did find a home phone number to Al Betker the old owner of MTS Maximum Torque Inc and his advice should be the best on everything to get that 22 MPG's from the cam he developed! I'll try calling him tomorrow....


    #7. What benefits can your custom billet Converter do for this or any Big Block Caddy economy application? Without lockup capability there are not any.


    Also, I see so much positive talk on the "Guys Who Know What Their Talking About Race Forums on Converters" and the only ones they mention without debate are your converters and Yanks, Art Carr.....no others!

    #8. Do you guys do anything different in your custom billet converters vs. Yanks or are you guys basically using the same build/technology?
    All different converter builders have their own theories of how converters work.
    ************************************************** *********************************

    Maybe I should've just spoke to Terry off the record for better info... I think he may have some limitations in his converter technology.

    Here's what Mike from YANK said:

    He can also have a custom billet NON- LOCKUP Converter built specifically for your 69' Deville's weight, MTS#3 Cam Specs, 2:94 gears which was the same info I gave Terry at Precision. Mike said this would be a custom designed 258 mm billet converter with higher Torque Multiplication. A 2.73 STR (Stall Torque Ratio which equals less throttle to get the car moving and will have a better efficiency in design. It will have totally different internals for quick coupling at low RPM with 97% efficiency vs. the factory design of 83% efficiency which will result in 8-12% + performance increase and 7% gain in fuel millage. $895+$115 Shipping.

    He said as an example, if your car currently gets 10 mpgs. It will now gain 11 mpgs. Or if you currently get 15 mpgs from optimizing your ignition, carburation, cam ect. you will then get 17mpgs. The highly efficient converter is a way to optimize the transmission and is an area that can be greatly improved over the factory design and other performance converters.

    He said they did make a Lockup Converter for the TH400 but you would need a whole custom trans. at $4000 + $2000 for the special converter and would only gain 3-4% fuel millage. They made this lock-up conversion many years ago, because there was no high horsepower lock-up transmission available until performance parts were eventually developed for building up 200r4's and 700r4's including the development of the 4L80 which all made the specially designed lock-up 400 obsolete. It was an ingenious but expensive design that was not very popular due to the expense

    Then there is the rare GM designed "Switch Pitch TH400 Transmission" which was a incredible design in converter/transmission technology.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=switc...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    Mike also said he has a few pumps, turbine heads, input shafts for the "Switch Pitch TH400" which worked by being able to adjust the pitch of the stator vanes inside the converter and decreased torque multiplication when coming to a stop and was hooked up to either a manual switch or the brake pedal switch and had a high stall at 1900-2200. This was a very unique and limited transmission and still advanced technolgy to todays standards, but is also antiquated and very expensive when a 200R4 can be built-up cheaper according to these Art Carr Article's which I believe you should really now consider doing a built up performance 200R4 and using a YANK lockup converter:


    SEE 3 MAGAZINE ARTICLES HERE ON BUILDING UP A PERFORMANCE 200R4 :
    http://www.cpttransmission.com/media.htm

    I will have to see if Art Carr will provide me with a parts list for building up the 200R4. I'm certain they do not develop their own parts so with some research, I may be able to find out who they are buying from.

    Most of their high performance parts are probably developed by SONNAX and if not, then Sonnax should know who.
    http://www.sonnax.com/

    This company called PACT Transmission has a huge mega website. They've been actually known to develop their own performance parts for the 700R4 and other transmissions and maybe selling to Art Carr or vise versa.

    You can actually spend days reading their site but I believe many of the same parts can be found through other suppliers. I've heard good and bad things about their built transmissions, but some of their custom parts are their own unique designs.
    P.A.C.T. 200R4 Tip Sheet: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/2004RTIP.htm

    PACT 200R4 Parts Page:
    http://www.transmissioncenter.net/200-4r.htm


    Those pages above will at least give you an idea of the performance parts list, along with the Art Carr articles on building up a 200R4.

    If you go with a 200R4, I would rely on a YANK converter because now that I know about Mike Senia's history with GM and from what I read what all another forums say about his company and converters. However, when I was was worried about my decision with the Precision Converter I bought for my 91 Brougham t00r4 but he said not to worry that I got a good converter from Terry at Precision. I just have a feeling that the YANK converters are better in design.

    If you get a non-lockup for the TH400 or a lock-up for a 200R4, definitely get a Trans Cooler to protect that expensive converter and the transmission. It's just a good thing to have as cheep insurance.

    Video/Article on YANK Converters:
    http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/dr...ss-converters/


    Hope this helps a little!

    Regards,
    Chris

  14. #59
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I forgot to add the price from YANK and I added it above. I had to Edit like 20 times because I went over the "15,000" character/letter limit because my post was so long!


    It's $895 + $115 shipping to Finland Europe for a Non-Lockup Converter on the TH400 Transmission...

    I'll have to call Terry at Precision Industries and ask why he didn't quote a price, unless they don't ship to Europe.

  15. #60
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Ok, I read your post and It was very interesting to read.

    "If I'm lowering my engine RPM with rear gears, does my non-lockup torque converter transmission "slip" more? If it starts to slip more, will I get heat problems and my torque converter starts to wear causing more slippage and heat problems?"

    #4. Can you answer this question for him?
    The lower gears will cause more slippage on take-off but slippage will be the same as before at road speed.
    This is great news, My driving is 85% highway driving so, these "take-off problems" don't affect me. Of course, If I'm going to put higher gears to lower my rpm, I will install tranny temp. meter and tranny cooler as well. First I have to find out does my car have any stock cooler in it.

    Although Marty at MTS said the cam should be installed at 0 degrees (straight up) on the early high compression motors to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, it really got me thinking about other technology I've hear about in coolant and that cam timing can actually be advanced by using a special coolant called Evans Coolant which is a Non-Aqueous Proplyene Glycol NPG+ and cools cylinder temperature so well to avoid detonation. Their technology states more horsepower, better fuel efficiency and less wear on components since you can run a low pressure radiator cap or zero pressure radiator cap all when using this special highly efficient coolant!

    I have a very good article about using this "not well known coolant" which allows an engine to run very high ignition advance and it cools the cylinders so well it avoids detonation! A turbo pickup truck was able to gain 75 hp with this coolant and advanced timing! So this might be something you want to consider in controlling cylinder temps when running advanced timing and running lean carburation for better fuel efficiency without detonation.

    I'll have to figure out how to attach this article, but here's the website:
    http://www.evanscooling.com/
    This coolant seems interesting. One thing which was unclear is the freezing point of this stuff. In Finland, the freezing point should be at least -30 degrees celsius.



    I think I will first focus to my engine. First thing in the spring I will do pressure test, pass-leak test and the de-carbonising with some kind of chemical. I don't know do we have Seafoam here in Finland, but we have some (very expensive) Forte-chemicals. They should be professional quality stuff. I have used their radiator cleaner with my Saab, and it did the job very well. Now my coolant is good looking green and not dirty, rusty red. I think I use that same radiator cleaner with my Cadillac. The radiator seemed pretty dirty (that white stuff which comes with the water was everywhere, I dont know what that's stuff's name in english)

    I will adjust my points and ignition, when I checked my ignition basic timing in last summer, it was something like 30-40 degrees BTDC. I tried to adjust it but my distributor was so jammed that it did not move...I hadn't been adjusted in ages

    I must change oils in the spring too. I'll take my oil pan off and check if it has any sign of worn timing chain gears in it. If I find some of those gear parts, I'll take my engine out of the car and do complete engine repair and change all worn parts, bearings, piston rings etc. I replace the stock cam with MTS economy cam as well.

    If I can't find any traces of broken timing gears, I will drive next summer and start engine repairs in fall when I got warm place to do those things.



    By the way, I went to try if my Cadillac still starts easily. It has been in place for 3 to 4 winter months. The starter revolved the engine couple of rounds and BOOM, the engine was running! Some people here say that old american motors don't start in winter because it's too cold. I wonder if thats true...At least my motor started, and it was -10 degrees celsius when I started it..

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